Brain Pain discussion

not one of, THE best, as I've said many times!

Mala, I'm speaking of life, not Jim. I was active for while in this group after it started and even led a discussion, so I know Jim.

Further, I catch your irony, intended or not, because what I don't actually do is SEE Jim. :-)

Bill wrote: "what I don't actually do is SEE Jim..."

Turn over a leaf, and you'll see me there. Break open a stone, and you'll.... Ooops! Sorry. My messianic complex is acting up today.

Out, damned spot!


Back to Moore - earlier this year we read The Golden Ass, which I can see from the index is in Moore's book. One possibility is to choose a few select texts to read in concurrence with Moore and see if we arrive in similar critical territory - or something like that. Possibly turn it into some sort of a "History of the Novel" type project.

TBD...

Mala wrote: "I'm proposing that we read some Steven Moore in 2014."

No doubt that Moore is a fellow traveler of Brain Pain, reader of big fat books, the more difficult the better, since his school daze in the early seventies with a big Joyce/Wake obsession. He was also an early enabler of readers and their Gaddis.

I'd suggest, though, that his two books on the history of the novel need not be scheduled readings for Brain Pain. Rather, I'd suggest opening a thread or folder for discussing his books on a when-the-spirit-moves-you basis. I take him as less a critical interpreter than as a fellow reader, although critic he be. His critical work is oriented most directly toward aiding the reader in gaining access to books and guiding them through the 'difficult' ones. An example of his critical work can be found on the the Gaddis Annotations website which was built off of Moore's foundation. But I see his two books on the novel more as reference works and as founts of manymany book titles, many of which would fit nicely into BP's reading habits. I'd suggest having a thread/folder opened in which folks could register their discoveries; something which would feed this thread and the Suggestion threads for subsequent years. One could also discover suggestions for themed readings as BP is doing this year with Faust, Magical Realism, etc.

His forthcoming volume covers the years 1600-1800 and incorporates over 400 novels, enough to keep BP busy for many 1001 Nights. His method centers on plot and book synopsis, giving a rough outline of what it's about, how it works, what to expect. His argument, strung throughout these treatments, is that the novel qua genre has always been novel, experimental, innovative, envelop pushing, etc. That whatever we think of as the traditional novel or the realist novel is just one instance of how novels can be and have been written. I'm curious to see what he digs up in vol II.

I look forward to your further thoughts, Mala and Jim and others, as to how and if a plan gets put together for Moore's books in BP.

Is a focus on innovation, experimentation, envelope-pushing really an alternative history?

Even Harold Bloom emphasized strangeness in literature.

"I have argued throughout this book that originality, in the sense of strangeness, is the quality that, more than any other, makes a work canonical."

And:

"One mark of an originality that can win canonical status for a literary work is a strangeness that we either never altogether assimilate, or that becomes such a given that we are blinded to its idiosyncrasies. Dante is the largest instance of the first possibility, and Shakespeare, the overwhelming example of the second."

Meanwhile, I'd think that anyone who has extensively read works from multiple pre-18th-century cultures would naturally conclude that writers have produced works of a peculiar character while striving to innovate, since the birth of literature.

I'd also think that most formally experimental authors are very much aware of the fact that they are born from a lineage that spans millennia. It's not as though Joyce, or Rabelais, or Sterne were unaware of earlier literary innovation.

So, if this is the "alternative history," then what is the alternative to the alternative? (or "mainstream")? Is it that writers are wrong to strive for innovation, and that the good writers of the past didn't do that? If so, I've never encountered this mainstream among serious readers anywhere.

Zadignose - I'd suggest you'd not be too far removed from Moore's position; which would be to count such as Rabelais's novel and Finnegans Wake as traditional novels. I won't make any argument about the characterization of what would count as a mainstream story about the history of the novel because I've gone so far over the deep end already. But to orient yourself to what Moore is up against (Franzen's Mr Difficult essay, et al), take a look into the intro to his Vol I, linked above in Mala's post, link The Third: http://cipg.codemantra.us/UI_TRANSACT...

The distinction, should one be drawn, between Bloom's project and Moore's, is that Moore's is limited to the genre of the novel, while Bloom takes in the entire realm of literature. [I also can't claim to be up on Bloom's project, but I'm much more sympathetic to his claims regarding the canon than are too manymany reader]

Meanwhile, I'd think that anyone who has extensively read works from multiple pre-18th-century cultures would naturally conclude that writers have produced works of a peculiar character while striving to innovate, since the birth of literature.

Precisely. I understand that for some of us, Moore is choir-preaching.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Mala wrote: "I'm proposing that we read some Steven Moore in 2014."

No doubt that Moore is a fellow traveler of Brain Pain, reader of big fat books, the more difficult the better, since his school..."

Good suggestions. I have a copy on order and so will likely setup a thread similar to your suggestion, and build from there.

Zadignose wrote: "Is a focus on innovation, experimentation, envelope-pushing really an alternative history?

Even Harold Bloom emphasized strangeness in literature.

"I have argued throughout this book that origina..."

Maybe the mainstream is the works that are responses to, homages to, and imitations of these original books.

Ulysses begat the Sound and the Fury, which begat the Southern Gothic genre.

In painting, Manet begat Monet begat Cezanne begat Picasso begat Pollack begat couch paintings.

So maybe the mainstream is a result of innovation?

That sounds fair. At least as in Bloom's perspective on Shakespeare, where innovation becomes established and then is the foundation of generations of imitation. Assimilation, or appropriation, depending on how you look at it.

Zadignose wrote: "That sounds fair. At least as in Bloom's perspective on Shakespeare, where innovation becomes established and then is the foundation of generations of imitation. Assimilation, or appropriation, dep..."

Dan Brown is mega-mainstream and he basically took James Bond, Indiana Jones, and the controversy of the Vatican, popped them into his word blender, and voila! Instant mainstream. This is not to say that Bond and Jones are alternative history, but you know what I mean...

NR wrote: "But I see his two books on the novel more as reference works and as founts of manymany book titles, many of which would fit nicely into BP's reading habits. I'd suggest having a thread/folder opened in which folks could register their discoveries; something which would feed this thread and the Suggestion threads for subsequent years. One could also discover suggestions for themed readings as BP is doing this year with Faust, Magical Realism, etc"

The intro link you had provided earlier,made that much clear to me- that they are to be used as reference material– but his style is so engaging & forthright– like he's talking directly to the readers– I felt like I was back in the class room of my fav English professor! Moore is not mainstream so deserves to be taken up by BP.
I'm sure that based on your suggestions, Jim will come up with a coherent plan & then other members can advise us further.
Thanks a lot for adding your thoughts to this :-)

Mala wrote: "I felt like I was back in the class room of my fav English professor!.."

Related to this topic is our upcoming Spotlight On Nabokov. One of the selections is his Lectures on Literature which covers seven books:

Mansfield Park
Bleak House
Madame Bovary
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and Other Tales of Terror
Swann's Way
The Metamorphosis
Ulysses

For each lecture, we'll discuss whatever themes/ideas Nabokov covers. The first lecture on Mansfield Park will be posted on August 19th. I haven't read MP or Bleak House yet, so my summer will be pretty packed. The other five I've read, although Dr. Jekyll was close to forty years ago, so I should probably re-read that one!

Faust is ending next week and I will send out The Nabokov announcement message towards the end of the week. First novel is Invitation to a Beheading which will begin the week of July 8th.

It may be interesting to see how Nabokov's ideas might relate to Moore's, if at all...

Zadignose wrote: "That sounds fair. At least as in Bloom's perspective on Shakespeare, where innovation becomes established and then is the foundation of generations of imitation. Assimilation, or appropriation, dep..."

I have Bloom's Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human on my to-read list. I haven't read any of Bloom's books - only a few articles and taped lectures here and there. Have you read this one? Would you recommend it? Or maybe an alternative? I'm curious about his work but I'm not sure where to jump in...

Harold Bloom wasn't always the establishment figure he is today; back in the 70s he was often associated with the deconstruction movement, and while that classification is somewhat debatable (okay, a lot), he did share with the likes of de Man, Hartman et al. an interest in over-the-top literary theory, resulting in works like The Anxiety of Influence: A Theory of Poetry, 2nd Edition or A Map of Misreading where he blends Romanticism, Freud and Kabbalah into a really wild mix. Personally, I prefer those early books, but they're not exactly what you'd call easy reading, as he also sported a dense, often quite lyrical writing style back then. He turned towards a more popular approach with The Western Canon: The Books and School of the Ages which is probably the book to start with if you're interested in the later period of his work. The Shakespeare book is pretty good, too,though. ;)

Larou wrote: "Harold Bloom wasn't always the establishment figure he is today; back in the 70s he was often associated with the deconstruction movement, and while that classification is somewhat debatable (okay,..."

Thanks Larou! Romanticism, Freud, and Kabbalah!? Sounds like a fun party...

I've avoided the Western Canon book mostly because I lived in San Francisco for a long time and dead white guys were suspect... Now that I'm living in Europe, it should be safe to read!

Jim wrote: "Mala wrote: "I felt like I was back in the class room of my fav English professor!.."

Related to this topic is our upcoming Spotlight On Nabokov. One of the selections is his Lectures on Literatur..."

Except for the last two,I've read all the remaining books. But summer is holiday sesaon here...I'll try & catch up whenever I can.

Mala wrote: "Except for the last two,I've read all the remaining books. But summer is holiday sesaon here...I'll try & catch up whenever I can..."

Ulysses is a pretty big time commitment, so I wouldn't suggest reading it just for the sake of Nabokov's lecture. On the other hand, no time like the present!

If you do decide to read Ulysses, send me a message and I'll give you a few suggestions you might find useful.

Nathan "Precisely. I understand that for some of us, Moore is choir-preaching..."

I'm admittedly a dilettante when it comes to Moore's book, having read the introduction and dipped into the rest of the contents willy-nilly. It's tied together by his theme of experimentalism existing throughout the history of the written word, but he's not just writing a long argument that innovation didn't start with Joyce. I think even (or maybe especially) the choir would find a lot to appreciate here.

Jim wrote: "I think this book by Gérard de Nerval would work well with the "literature of melancholy" idea:

Aurélia and Other Writings

Anyone familiar with his work?"

I read a lot of Nerval in college. All I remember is that it was like getting drunk on words.

Jim wrote: "Mala wrote: "Except for the last two,I've read all the remaining books. But summer is holiday sesaon here...I'll try & catch up whenever I can..."

Ulysses is a pretty big time commitment, so I wou..."

Thank Jim but perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough– I meant that as that discussion is taking place during the holiday season,I might miss it but will try to catch up with the updates & perhaps participate now & then.
Ulysses is a very special book & I've kept its reading for my old age! One must have special books for different decades!

Ah, I forgot to respond earlier. I liked some of the ideas Bloom expressed in The Western Cannon, but I did not read it in its entirety, and I haven't read his other work so I am unable to advise/comment. I certainly appreciated and related to his notions about the strangeness of great literature, though. In Don Quixote, especially, I approached a book which I thought I had every reason to think 'I know that book' before reading it... and it blew my socks off and was not what I was expecting. Now that I have read it though, and feel as though I've assimilated its ideas somewhat, it can again (perhaps falsely) appear 'normal' to me. So I may not be able to convey to someone who has not read it just what is so special about the book. Crack the book though, and you'll discover it on your own.

Just as a hint though, Don Quixote is one of the two or three best books I've read in which major characters vomit into each other's mouths. (If that doesn't sell you, I don't know what will!)

(This is written to the impersonal 'you'. I know that you have read it, but I'm addressing that other 'you' next to you.)

Jim wrote: "Two ideas for themed-reads keep popping up in my thoughts. One about mental illness, and one about addiction/substances. I think they’re residual thoughts from reading Infinite Jest.

"Literature o..."

I love the idea of a theme on mental illness (especially depression) and a theme on addiction/substances.

Even though there are tons of books on substance abuse and addictions (even non-substance addictions), I can't think of any at the moment, other than Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, which is already mentioned on Jim's list. But it's an important issue, and a great topic to read about.

Here are some suggestions on books about depression:

Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness by William Styron -- This is a very short book - I guess it would be called a novella, but it's worth it as a "secondary read" while we're reading something else.

Unholy Ghost: Writers on Depression by
Nell Casey

The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression by Andrew Solomon -- This book was on Jim's list. I have a copy of it, and I've read bits and pieces of it. I'd love to read the entire book with this group. My paperback edition is HUGE -- looking at it makes me feel that it's at least one thousand pages, but in the description of the book here on Goodreads it says it's only 536 pages. I'll have to look at my copy again when I get home.

The Bell Jar: A Novel by Sylvia Plath

I suggested a William Styron book in my previous post, Message 172 in this thread, for a theme on Mental Illness/Depression.

Outside of the "depression theme" books, there's a fun book of essays written by Styron which I would like to suggest. I'm sure we'll have some short stories on our 2014 list, and I was thinking that maybe we could read some books of essays (where we wouldn't necessarily read all of the essays in a book, but like the Borges stories there would be individual essays that we could read at one or two week clips.)

Havanas in Camelot: Personal Essays by William Styron

Also, while on the subject of essays, I've heard that DFW's essays are excellent. I had a tough time getting into Infinite Jest, but some of my friends told me that they enjoy David Foster Wallace's essays more than his novels.

Barbara wrote: "I suggested a William Styron book in my previous post, Message 101 in this thread, for a theme on Mental Illness/Depression.

Outside of the "depression theme" books, there's a fun book of essays w..."

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm thinking we might call the project "Melancholy and Madness" which would open the reading beyond depression.

For DFW, a good starting point is A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again. Some serious funniness in this book, mixed with lots of funny seriousness.

Also, listen to this commencement address from 2005:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFt7E...

Barbara wrote: "The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolano

Reader's Block by David Markson

The Appointment by Herta Muller

The Myth of Sisyphus and other Essays by Albert Camus"

When I first posted my list of suggestions, I did not include the links. So here is my original list, IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE THIS TIME (i.e., in order of my preference)

The Myth of Sisyphus and Other Essays by
Albert Camus

Reader’s Block by David Markson

The above two would be AWESOME to read with this group. And as far as Camus, any of his work would be great.

Here are my second and third choices, which I don't think were on my original list:

No Exit by Jean-Paul Sartre

Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett

And here are two more from my original list:

The Appointment by Herta Müller

The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolaño

Ooops -- here's one more, which would be in my top five choices:

A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce

Herta Müller would be great, 2666 is the Bolano I wish to start on, but yes, and for Melancholy how about Satantango by László Krasznahorkai?

Will wrote: "Herta Müller would be great, 2666 is the Bolano I wish to start on, but yes, and for Melancholy how about Satantango by László Krasznahorkai?"

Which Müller would you recommend?

I'm wondering if we should do a "Spotlight on Bolaño" read next year. 2666 is his 'big book' and I've seen discussions saying it might be easier to unwrap 2666 if you're familiar with his earlier books.

Satantango sounds great for melancholy.

For Herta Müller, I'll throw in a vote for The Appointment. Unless anyone here has read a few of her books and suggests a different one.

I'm open to any of Roberto Bolaño books, but I've read bits and pieces of The Savage Detectives, which seems pretty good and may not be as long as 2666. BUT, I would be fine with 2666 if we're given enough time to read it.

2014 is looking pretty dark so far!! Maybe another Murakami (one of his shorter works) would lighten things up a bit???

Barbara wrote: "For Herta Müller, I'll throw in a vote for The Appointment. Unless anyone here has read a few of her books and suggests a different one.

I'm open to any of Roberto Bolaño books, but I've read bits..."

I took a long hard look into the crystal ball last night, and so far 2014 will have 3 main projects:

1. A continuation of "The Spine", i.e. hard books
2. A themed read - maybe "Melancholy & Madness" or something else that might come up between now and October.
3. A "Spotlight on author X" Maybe Bolaño or someone else with a large and diverse body of work.

Jim, I am confident that you will produce a fabulous list for 2014. I'm just throwing in suggestions every now and again, but I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever you come up with.

For the themed read, if it's "Melancholy & Madness" would addiction be included in that? Depression and addiction often go hand-in-hand, and since there are so many intelligent people in this group I think we could have some fascinating discussions on these issues.

I was also thinking of the concept of creative brilliance and depression (often accompanied by suicide or accidental drug overdose). A very small sample in three categories:

PAINTERS -- Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko, Modigliani, Vincent Van Gogh.

WRITERS -- DFW, Hemingway, Virginia Woolf, Sylvia Plath.

MUSICIANS -- Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Keith Moon, Brian Jones, Layne Staley, Elvis. (We could also come up with many classical musicians who suffered from severe depression and substance abuse.)

Of course the lists of depressed and/or substance abusers and/or suicides in these three categories is WAY longer than the examples I just shared.

I was wondering about a theme of "Melancholy & Madness" in the arts, and, if the group is interested we could read memoirs and biographies (or historical fiction) of some of these musicians, artists, and writers.

Just a suggestion....

Barbara wrote: "I was wondering about a theme of "Melancholy & Madness" in the arts, and, if the group is interested we could read memoirs and biographies (or historical fiction) of some of these musicians, artists, and writers...."

I'm officially nominating The Bell Jar: A Novel since this year marks the 50th anniversary of its release. Anna Kavan fits right in there, as does The Yellow Wallpaper.

Certainly we can include addictions in the mix. Plenty of junkies and drunkies in the arts. Under the Volcano, William S. Burroughs, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas: A Savage Journey to the Heart of the American Dream, - the list goes on...

Just throwing it out there, though it's not in any anticipated theme, but since volume one is on my shelf:

The Plum in the Golden Vase Or, Chin P'Ing Mei

It's the fifth of the four great Chinese Classics. The fifth because it has often gone unmentioned due to its erotic content.

Thousands of pages of 16th century eroticism and decadence. How can that go wrong? (or just stick to volume one?)

Jim wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I was wondering about a theme of "Melancholy & Madness" in the arts, and, if the group is interested we could read memoirs and biographies (or historical fiction) of some of these m..."

The Bell Jar, The Yellow Wallpaper, Fear and Loathing... these definitely fall right into the "Melancholy and Madness" list. All of these would be great. I haven't read any of Anna Kavan's books, but they seem to fit right in as well.

I thought of some plays that are all about Melancholy and Madness (and drug use and/or suicide in some of them.) Since plays are pretty quick to read, maybe some of these could be "short, quick reads in-between the longer works" in the Melancholy & Madness theme.

Long Day's Journey Into Night by Eugene O'Neill

Hedda Gabler by Henrik Ibsen

Tom and VIV by Michael Hastings

The Motherfucker With the Hat by Stephen Adly Guirgis

Hurlyburly by David Rabe


Also, a good novel (and a short, quick read) by Hemingway which includes a lot of drinking, confused, depressed, and dysfunctional characters, and possibly some drug use (I can't remember if there's drug use, but they do drink plenty of Absinthe) --

The Garden of Eden by Ernest Hemingway


AND, of course, there's always:

No One Here Gets Out Alive by Danny Sugarman

Will wrote: "Herta Müller would be great, 2666 is the Bolano I wish to start on, but yes, and for Melancholy how about Satantango by László Krasznahorkai?"

I would love to read Satantango with this group. Coincidentally, I just watched the movie last weekend, which was fantastic. I think it was Mala in another discussion who suggested a film recommendation / discussion thread for BP members. Anyone else interested?

Zadignose wrote: "Just throwing it out there, though it's not in any anticipated theme, but since volume one is on my shelf:

The Plum in the Golden Vase Or, Chin P'Ing Mei

It's the fifth of the four great Chinese ..."

There's bound to be some opium in there somewhere, so it could fit.

@Barbara - Good suggestions. The more you look, the more melancholy and madness there is to see.

@Whitney - That could be fun. I would want to limit it to movies based on books.

I have seen a lot of good suggestions already on this list. I would like to make a (selfish) addition to the list for the Spine 2014 category: JR. I saw that you read The Recognitions previously and thought maybe a continuation of Gaddis's work would be interesting.

Kurt wrote: "I have seen a lot of good suggestions already on this list. I would like to make a (selfish) addition to the list for the Spine 2014 category: JR. I saw that you read The Recognitions previously an..."

You're a mind-reader Kurt. For "the Spine" I was thinking about revisiting some of the authors from 2012, including Gaddis' JR. I'd also like to nominate William Gass' new book, Middle C. Also, another Woolf, Joyce, Pynchon, and DFWallace.

For Woolf, maybe Orlando

Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man as Barbara suggested above.

Pynchon, maybe Mason and Dixon or another

Wallace, The Pale King or The Broom of the System

That should give us a pretty firm footing in the work of these writers. Let me know your thoughts about this, as well as other titles for Woolf and Pynchon.

Caveat: I want to go on record right now as saying that Finnegan's Wake is not a possibility. As Bill might put it, I don't think the book is worth the candle...

I think all of the books you mentioned are worthy picks. I would add for consideration:

Woolf's: Mrs. Dalloway. It (kind of) dovetails with the melancholy/madness theme through the character of Septimus Smith.

For Pynchon, it might also be interesting to look at what he did before Gravity's Rainbow and read V.

As for DFW or Joyce, there isn't anything I would further add.

How many books do you plan to put up of for nomination at year's end?

Kurt wrote: "How many books do you plan to put up of for nomination at year's end?..."

What I'll do is around the end of September or so, I'll go through this list and figure out creative ways to blend everything together for the coming year. I'll put up some polls with different options and see what rises to the top. I would guesstimate somewhere between 30 and 40 books could end up scheduled for the year. Naturally, I don't expect members would read everything that makes the cut, but rather members are free to pick and choose what most appeals to them.

V is a good idea. It's his first book and is a creative reimagining of Gaddis' The Recognitions.

For Woolf, I'll put up a poll in October. I'm thinking we could choose between Mrs. Dalloway, Orlando, and maybe Jacob's Room.

Orlando would have been an excellent pick for magical realism now that I think of it...

DFW I'd say The Pale King is must read.

Will wrote: "DFW I'd say The Pale King is must read."

We should try to read it during tax season...

Hi I've been lurking and following some of the reads, mostly the Vollmann reads and am looking forward to the next read. I love all the suggestions for upcoming reads because I've either read them or those are on my shelf to read, however my reading pace is a little slower.
Most of the suggestions are great literary classics or soon to be classics of the heady variety, but i would like to suggest some science fiction novels that are quite the difficult read. I know, just like all literature there is a handful of gems through all the murk, but books like
Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
Xenogenesis by Octavia Butler
Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
Among others could be great reads for this group that don't only cause hours of great difficult reading and can be thrown in with great literature, but they could also tell us something about ourselves as humans. Any thoughts or suggestions on brain pain science fiction novels?

Josiah wrote: "Hi I've been lurking and following some of the reads, mostly the Vollmann reads and am looking forward to the next read. I love all the suggestions for upcoming reads because I've either read them ..."

Cryptonomicon would definitely be a good read for the group. The other two I don't know (meaning I haven't read them). My exposure to sci-fi, in terms of what's good/complex/challenging is very limited. If you think of others that are a good match for BP, please list them here.

Delany is as complex and challenging as it gets in Science Fiction, and personally I think he is one of the great underrated writers of the 20th century - well, and the 21st, since publication of his most recent novel Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders. That one is likely not to everyone taste, but Dhalgren or Nova would fit this group very well, I think.

Butler I admit I have not read yet, but that is something I really should remedy some day soon, as she is unaminously considered as one of the literary greats in the genre.

I'd agree that Delany is well-qualified for Brain Pain, with his love of post-modern theory, especially as applied to sexual politics. I respectively disagree about about Cryptonomicon, though. I didn't think it was at all complex. It's a very straight-forward story, just long-winded. Don't let the (undeserved) length fool you.

I'm new here - and am at a loss as to how I missed learning of this group sooner - but the discussion about science fiction that fits the group's goals has piqued my thinker. SF is one of my favorite genres, and I've got a small list of titles that never seem to appeal to discussion groups due to their inherent brain pain-type quirks, so I thought I might as well jump into the fray.

I agree about Samuel R. Delaney, and I think Dhalgren would be an excellent representative choice.

I love Octavia Butler, but I must say I don't find her work particularly difficult. In fact, even when she's dealing with complex subjects, her work just flows. I've never found it to be especially tricky and consider her to be something of a thoughtful comfort read.

The concept behind Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle, which I've seen referred to as "alternate science," is most thought-provoking and complex. I read it years ago, and I'd definitely appreciate giving it another go in the company of others. I've never read another book like it, and I found myself needing to do research alongside my reading to better attempt to wrap my brain around the ideas being presented.

A few others to consider:

Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban - unusual for complex and experimental use of language

The Glass Bead Game by Hermann Hesse - This is the author's final book and the one for which he won his Nobel. This is often referred to as mathematics as fiction, yet it also incorporates philosophy, music and many other concepts.

Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions by Edwin A. Abbott - While short, this book is definitely experimental and thought-provoking. It's a pocket-sized trove of unusual ideas, metaphor and mathematics-as-literature, written in 1884.

Candiss wrote: "I'm new here - and am at a loss as to how I missed learning of this group sooner - but the discussion about science fiction that fits the group's goals has piqued my thinker. SF is one of my favor..."

Thanks for all those great ideas!

Just to clarify, we don't necessarily have to look for books that are difficult. Thought-provoking, conceptually challenging, experimental, etc., are also things we look for. Hesse and Abbott would likely work well. I don't know Hoban's work, but I did just tbr a new edition of his Turtle Diary.

Think Oulipo, Borges, Calvino, etc., and if there are SF writers who explore similar territories/mindscapes, that would work too. But probably most important - Is it good writing?

Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry. It's less challenging after 3 readings, but one of my favorites.

Also: Juan Rulfo's stunning novel, Pedro Peramo. Arguably the first magic realism novel, heavily influenced Marquez, et al. Consider by many Mexican literari as the most significant Mexican novel.

Debra wrote: "Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry. It's less challenging after 3 readings, but one of my favorites.

Also: Juan Rulfo's stunning novel, Pedro Peramo. Arguably the first magic realism novel, heav..."

Debra, this group read Pedro Peramo in April. Here's a link: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

I don't know how I failed to mention The Troika by Stepan Chapman. It lies firmly in the intersection between science fiction and surrealism and is often mentioned in discussions of experimental sf.

I just realized this is a general thread, not specifically sf, so I'm not so limited. (Forgive me, but I've been ill for days and am looking for little brain projects to distract myself, so I've been looking through my lists.) I'll add:


I searched the group for The Raw Shark Texts by Steven Hall and found a couple of mentions/suggestions of it, but nothing more. Nested narrative, parallel stories, text/font shenanigans, dream-like sequences, certainly structurally non-standard...I would definitely call it experimental fiction, and I think it would appeal to admirers of House of Leaves.

Dictionary of the Khazars by Milorad Pavić - Written in dictionary/lexicon form, this non-linear book is known for its unconventional structure and mixing of real history with fictional/fantastical elements. A group search turned up one mention, but the group doesn't seem to have discussed it.

Larva: A Midsummer Night's Babel by Julián Ríos utilizes all sort of linguistic cantrips, double meanings, odd structure, "puns, palindromes and acrostics" (per the Goodreads description.)

I am intrigued by lipograms - a writing in which the author intentionally omits specific letters of the alphabet - as I find such an unusual structure interesting not only as a writing device but for how it makes me think about the author. Why does he or she undertake such a deliberate experiment? Books that come to mind are A Void by Georges Perec (which was mentioned at least once above in this thread,) Alphabetical Africa by Walter Abish and, more recently, Ella Minnow Pea by Mark Dunn.

David Markson has several that fill the bill, including Vanishing Point, Wittgenstein’s Mistress and Reader’s Block, the last two of which have already been suggested above. I wanted to add Vanishing Point to the mix, though, as it hasn't been mentioned.

Classic surrealist works the group doesn't seem to have discussed:
Nadja by André Breton
Mount Analogue by René Daumal
In Watermelon Sugar by Richard Brautigan
The Hearing Trumpet by Leonora Carrington (This is one of my all-time favorite books. Carrington is probably one of the best-known female surrealists, and this is her best-known work.)

Modern/current surrealists:
Blake Butler (ex. There Is No Year)
Jesse Ball (ex. The Way Through Doors, which also mixes in some unique structural aspects)
Shane Jones (ex. Light Boxes)

Edited to add the Carrington.