Brain Pain discussion
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Suggestions for 2014
I can't comment on some of the most experimental contemporary writers because I am their publisher.
Mod
Under the Volcano sounds perfect for next year.
Mod
Great suggestions! Troika sounds great, but might be out of print. I'll search more.
Lots of great suggestions here. BTW, we'll be reading Perec's Life A User's Manual this summer.
Mod
Thanks Jordan! The Burgess sounds perfect for the "Melancholy and Madness" theme. The trilogy is intriguing too.
Jim wrote: "BTW, we'll be reading Perec's Life A User's Manual this summer. ..."Awesome!
I have no direct recommendations, but I'd like to direct some minds to some stacks of books which might inspire some further suggestions perhaps for 2014.Jim was asking about Burroughs on another thread. The only one of his I have one my tbr is The Soft Machine because Larry McCaffery placed it on his top 100, which should inspire some Brain Pain level excitement. Larry's 100 ::
(short version) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Cen...
(ANNotated version) http://www.litline.org/ABR/Issues/Vol...
The descendents of Rabelais, ie, everything experimental, innovative, inventive, entertaining, and fantastic ::
(this list is Steven Moore's and I've reproduced it in my Rabelais review (no apologies for shelf promotion)) http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
My list of fat, mega-, encyclopedic, and generally too-big-to-knot novels ::
(contained again in the form of shelf promotion, but not up to date;; for a little more up-datedness, see my too-big-to-knot shelf) http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
BUTBUT, most important for my shelfish purposes, some of you may know that I maintain a BURIED Book Club, most of whose residents should be of some interest to Brain Pain folk; some maybe not so much. Some of these books may be out of print, but many might be found at nice homes such as Dalkey Archive. But if Brain Painers might find something interesting and entertaining to read in 2014 from within our collection of dead, dying, and despairing books, you would be providing new wine for these old wineskins :: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/9...
Thanks, Jim, for tolerating my apparent shelf promotion.
Mod
Jim was asking about Burroughs on another..."
Looking at the McCaffery list, we've read 12 between last year and this year, plus another 5 or 6 nominated for next year. McCaffery is one of us, one of us, one of us!
Cities of the Red Night by Burroughs is another good rec from Whitney.
We should also try and work in some Robert Coover next year. Any suggestions for a good entry into Coover's work?
Not sure whether it is the right entry, but I recently read The Public Burning and thought it very special.
Mod
Good to hear! I was also wondering about his first book, The Origin of the Brunists. Anyone here read it?
Mark B wrote: "Not sure whether it is the right entry, but I recently read The Public Burning and thought it very special."The Public Burning is what he is likely to become known for throughout the ages. He has a fat new one coming out this Fall--The Brunist Day of Wrath--which is a sequel to his first--The Origin of the Brunists. He also has a trilogy about pronouns :: Gerald's Party (I), John's Wife (she), and Noir: A Novel (you). And his The Adventures of Lucky Pierre: Directors’ Cut is a PORNody. OR his early, classic collection Pricksongs and Descants. And a few other excellent items.
Jim wrote: "his first book, The Origin of the Brunists. Anyone here read it? "Shame I've not yet; but I understand that it is a little more 'straight' than the remainder of his work, more accessible, less weird. I intend to read it this summer prior to the release of the big new one.
I recently read The Origin of the BrunistsIt was a very good first novel. You could see some hints of future experimentation. I was hoping we would read The Public Burning next year. It seems like that is the standout from him, and it keeps staring at me from my bookshelf.
Mod
It was a very good first novel. You could see some hints of future experimentation. I was hoping we would read The Public Burning next year. It seems like..."
The Public Burning seems to be the one most people praise of Coover's work, so it would probably be the best starting point.
Of the three Coovers I've read, all were excellent. I'd recommend Pricksongs as the starting point because it's not that long, yet is still challenging. It's compromised of shorter pieces that people can dip in and out of. It is also the starting point for what seems to be a lot of Coover's revisionist concerns: his disdain for realism; and his fondness for pricking around with, or subverting fairytale settings and tropes. I've been wanting to read that first one for a while. I also recommend maybe reading Coover alongside John Hawkes - they're Brown University buddies, but I feel there could be a conspicuously anti-realist comparative model to work from. I started The Beetle Leg recently, but it was too intense and demanding for me at this moment of time. It did, however, have the brief effect of making reading Proust seem about as effortless as a dainty frolic with P.G Wodehouse.
Mod
Yes, maybe we can mix in a Hawkes novel with the Coover. Any Hawkes recs in addition to The Beetle Leg?
Only read The Lime Twig, Jim. One of the most aesthetically pungent things I've ever come across. Absolutely floored me. "you suffer it like a dream" Flannery O'Connor said and that's a pretty neat way of describing the experience of reading it. Barthelme had The Blood Oranges on his lists. Later on it gets tricky - apparently he became obsessed with pornography...
Mod
The Lime Twig: Novel seems to come up most frequently for Hawkes, so maybe that would be a good starting point. We'll save the porn for 2015...
Jim wrote: "The Lime Twig: Novel seems to come up most frequently for Hawkes, so maybe that would be a good starting point. We'll save the porn for 2015... "I have an argument with Gass on this one; I prefer The Cannibal for my early Hawkes. I wouldn't recommend The Blood Oranges, but I think that is due to the film having ruined it for me. My favorite latter-day Hawkes (so far), when his books were less dense, is Adventures in the Alaskan Skin Trade. I still haven't read The Beetle Leg and look very much forward to it. But one of those early Hawkes book, whichever, is very much needed for The Pain of the Brain. Excellent direction.
I don't love Coover, but realize my bias may be gender-based. From a woman's perspective, some of the fiction reinforces (not ironically) the 1970s literary hierarchy whence I came.
I have a strong feeling I'm the only one with even a passing interest in this.Let's take or or works and read them s-l-o-w-l-y and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y.
The goal is NOT to read but to read carefully and to THINK. CAREFULLY in writing.
No pain, no gain.
I'm looking for the intensity of a serious graduate seminar -- because that's I THINK would be the most fun and the most pleasure. :-)
If people signed on and failed to contribute, aliens would arrive at their doorsteps and take them to spaceships where they would have nothing to do but write their Brain Pain comments.
If they still failed to produce, well, it wouldn't be pretty.
I'd be willing to do some poetry on this basis. I'm thinking Wallace Stevens. When I did The Waste Land last year I was frustrated by the lack of extended attention to the work by more than few people. It is, admittedly, a very difficult work to get a fix on. But my frustration was the way people became distracted with all the other books to read -- and didn't have the laser like focus on this one.
No dating around. I'm insisting on marriage.
I would be willing to prepare Stevens for the purpose of leading a discussion, but I'd want to know that the aliens were there to prevent people from sloughing off.
Are there ten people out there who think this would be fun?
Mod
Which of his books did you dislike/like the most?
Mod
Let's take or or works and read them s-l-o-w-l-y and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y.
The goal is NOT to read but to read careful..."
I still have The Collected Poems on my bookshelf from the last time we talked about reading him. How would you propose reading the work? One poem per week for X number of poems? Or something else? Build it and they will come...
Jim wrote: "Debra wrote: "I don't love Coover, but realize my bias may be gender-based. From a woman's perspective, some of the fiction reinforces (not ironically) the 1970s literary hierarchy whence I came."
..."
I used to teach Coover (specifically, "You Must Remember This" in my experimental writing courses because I know that taste is not objective and wanted my students to be aware of him and his work. I respect Coover for his electronic/digital media efforts at Brown. I have tried to read his fiction (from Pricksongs, and Noir, and short stories whose titles are now lost on me) but I don't love the language itself, which I find not complex enough for my studies and which is my primary focus as a writer-reader. Remember that writers do not read for the same reasons that non-writers read.
Though the soft-porn and noir pieces are purportedly meant as parodies, I remain unconvinced as some seem to only subtly reinforce stereotypes. But, as I said, that is my reading, from a woman's and writer's perspective.
..."
I used to teach Coover (specifically, "You Must Remember This" in my experimental writing courses because I know that taste is not objective and wanted my students to be aware of him and his work. I respect Coover for his electronic/digital media efforts at Brown. I have tried to read his fiction (from Pricksongs, and Noir, and short stories whose titles are now lost on me) but I don't love the language itself, which I find not complex enough for my studies and which is my primary focus as a writer-reader. Remember that writers do not read for the same reasons that non-writers read.
Though the soft-porn and noir pieces are purportedly meant as parodies, I remain unconvinced as some seem to only subtly reinforce stereotypes. But, as I said, that is my reading, from a woman's and writer's perspective.
Jim,I think we'd pick a certain number of poems -- going through someone Collected Works of poetry -- unless they're really, really unproflific -- is a bit of a slog.
Then the time given would vary by the poem. It's a matter of complexity but simply some are long and some are short. :-) Of course some that are short are extremely important, like "The Snow Man" with its deadly line,
"Nothing that is not there, and the nothing that is."
I have to read these essays myself first, but there's also some of his essays, those collected in The Necessary Angel is a start.
But again, it's difficult. Nothing is as famous as The Waste Land -- and I think I got more people on the two or three phone calls I did than actually comment. And the people genuinely LIKED the phone calls.
But when I asked about it, they just got distracted with everything else. And poems don't have the story to get you through, necessarily.
I just through it out there to see if there would be a groundswell of enthusiasm. Then I'd it would be worth giving, say, six months to prep.
Debra,I think reading as a writer is different from reading as a reader, sometimes anyway. But do you think writers all read for the same purpose?
Bill wrote: "Debra,
I think reading as a writer is different from reading as a reader, sometimes anyway. But do you think writers all read for the same purpose?"
No, they certainly don't, which is why I taught Coover to my experimental writing students. I doubt that mainstream writers read most of the books that experimental writers read. Vice versa.
I think reading as a writer is different from reading as a reader, sometimes anyway. But do you think writers all read for the same purpose?"
No, they certainly don't, which is why I taught Coover to my experimental writing students. I doubt that mainstream writers read most of the books that experimental writers read. Vice versa.
David wrote: "Jim wrote: "Ellie wrote: "How about The Brothers Karamazov?"I could support that. Any others?"
The Idiot
I've already read it, and highly recommend it. Not read much else Dostoevsky, so would lo..."
The Idiot is the book I ave lined up next to read anyway, so I'm there for that! Already read Karamozov and Crime and Punishment at least twice.
I've read The Idiot several times and am more than willing to read it again. That may be my favorite Dostoevsky (tough call, though!).
The Sot-Weed Factor by John Barth, The Making of Americans by Gertrude Stein or The Instructions by Adam Levin?I second Under the Volcano cos I haven't read it yet also I read a story from Pricksongs and Descants but would love to read the rest with the group too :-)
Mod
Bill wrote: "Jim,I think we'd pick a certain number of poems -- going through someone Collected Works of poetry -- unless they're really, really unproflific -- is a bit of a slog.
Then the time given would v..."
I was one of the people who participated in the phone call, but I was not able to participate in the discussion. (I may have contributed a little at the beginning -- I don't remember. But I never had time to read the whole poem.) It was a long poem and I started out with enthusiasm but suddenly became bombarded with some extra work so I couldn't continue reading.
I'm a freelancer, and I also am constantly working on deadlines. When I first commit to participate in a group read, my intention is to read the whole book and participate with the group. However, my work schedule can be brutal one week and a bit more mellow another week. When it's "brutal," it's VERY brutal and everything else in my life (including reading) has to take a back seat to my work.
If the schedule is one poem per week, and the poems are not very long, I would probably be able to participate for some weeks, but couldn't commit to every week. I do like the idea of having a "slow paced" poetry schedule in addition to the novels we read here. (Similar to the Borges schedule, which is one story every two weeks -- a very slow pace, so that there's time to read a story every now and again and still read a novel with the group).
I think it would be interesting to have a nice mix of different poets (perhaps five or six poets for the year, and maybe they would each be from different time periods or different genres, etc.) which would give us a chance to read eight or nine different works of each of the poets.
What do you think?
Mod
What do you think? ..."
Going through a few different poets during the year might be fun. I would ask members to volunteer to lead discussion of a given poet, as I am not well versed (bad pun) in poetry. I know that Will Mego enjoys poetry and would probably like to share
Ted Kooser's poetry with us. And maybe someone would be interested in hosting a discussion of a long-ish poem, like Howl and Other Poems or The Raven.
And Barbara, maybe you could lead a discussion of Emily Dickinson, one poem every two weeks would surely fit your schedule - ROFL!!!
I would love to...I'm not sure Kooser is going to cause cranial discomfort though...but is my favorite poet (not to mention living poet) Although, the argument could be made that damn near any poem contains enough hidden reference and symbolism to cause some pain, even a poem and poet considered by those in the poetry world to be "accessible". Delving into specific poetic forms is a very Oulipian feat, even before Oulipo came to be...the Sestina would be an example of a very Oulipian form, IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sestina
The Villanelle is another form which many poets consider the hardest. http://beyondeasy.blogspot.com/2011/0...
The beat poets are a decent place to visit for those who haven't been with them yet, I'd agree. But really you can find poets in any era who are a challenge to read.
Mod
Although, the argument could be made that damn near any po..."
Although the original driving force of the group was difficult reading, we don't have to be too strict about that. Quality and interesting and thought-provoking work is just as important as the formally challenging books.
When we approach October, I'll poll the group to find out who might be willing to lead a discussion of a given poem and/or 2 or 3 poems by a favorite poet.
Also I'll see who's in for a longer read of Wallace Stevens, led by Bill. As mentioned above, Bill prepares well for the discussions, so I want to be sure he'll have a good amount of participation. Another option Bill has mentioned in the past is John Donne.
Okay, flag is flying, let's see who salutes...
Jim wrote: "Will wrote: "I would love to...I'm not sure Kooser is going to cause cranial discomfort though...but is my favorite poet (not to mention living poet) Although, the argument could be made that dam..."
Rather than a slog through one poet's work, there are some fantastic anthologies. The anthology of American poet laureates comes to mind. '20th century history through poetry' as well. Titles are poor paraphrases, but I will post them when I have them. Quality, interesting, and thought-provoking for sure. Either would give you as much or more to think about than anything that we have read. That, to me, is as important as any other 'brain pain' requirement.
Mod
Agreed! Ultimately, we're in pursuit of great literature and great reading experiences.
I'd love for us to read Stevens, my most favorite poet. I also like Donne very much.
Update ::I see that we've already discussed reading something from Joseph McElroy for 2014. His latest novel Cannonball has just been released in paperback and ebook by Dzanc books. His third and out-of-print novel Ancient History: A Paraphase (and seldom read) will be reissued by Dzanc in paperback and ebook at the end of August. Both would be perfect fits for Brain Pain. His monstrously sized masterpiece Women and Men should see an ebook release by the end of the year, a paper reprint is not scheduled at this time. Dzanc is working at releasing (nearly?) all of McElroy's books in ebook form over the course of the coming year. I can think of few authors more deserving of the attention of Brain Pain'ers.
Mod
A Smuggler's Bible might be a good starting point. Would prefer to wait for W&M to come back into print, given its complexity.
Jim wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I think it would be interesting to have a nice mix of different poets (perhaps five or six poets for the year, and maybe they would each be from different time periods or different ..."Here is the first Emily Dickinson poem that we will discuss:
A winged spark doth soar about -
I never met it near
For Lightning it is oft mistook
When nights are hot and sere -
It's twinkling Travels it pursues
Above the Haunts of men -
A speck of Rapture - first perceived
By feeling it is gone -
Seriously Jim, I am absolutely flattered that you would ask me to lead a discussion on the poems of Emily Dickinson! (Even though you were "Rolling on the Floor" when you suggested it, but I think the RTFL or ROTF was meant to imply the absurdity of NOT being able to manage one poem every two weeks.)
Actually, her poems shouldn't need more than a week, unless we want the discussions to be extremely deep, and we choose to get into heavy discussions about the poet along with each poem -- which may be what the group wants to do.
Whether the schedule is one poem per week, or one poem every two weeks, YES, I do believe I could fit this into my busy schedule, and again, I am flattered that you suggested that I lead the discussion.
I do have to admit that I am not an expert on any specific poet. I love reading poetry, but it's one of the many areas of literature that I would love to learn more about. (All through high school and college, and even post-college, I studied drama, so all the lit classes I took in school were drama classes. If we ever decide to do a "spotlight on drama" or "spotlight on the great plays," I could honestly say that I would do a great job at something like this.)
However, I really would love to do this. (UNLESS there is someone in the group who is an expert on the work of Emily Dickinson who would like to lead the discussion.) I would not be offended if this "job" is given to someone with more knowledge and experience on the poet, but either way, I can assure you that I would actively participate in the discussion.
I also love the idea of a discussion on Howl.
In terms of other interesting poets to discuss, there is such a great assortment of different genres out there. We could have so much fun with this. It would be great to cover Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Tennyson,
E.E. Cummings, Sylvia Plath, Langston Hughes, Allen Ginsberg(Howl, and some of his shorter works), Wordsworth, TS Eliot, and the list can go on forever.
I think someone in the group said that Borges has an interesting collection of poetry.
Well, as you can see, the list can go on forever. I think it would be great if we could cover a different poet every six to eight weeks throughout 2014, and in the case of shorter poems we could read a different poem each week, and as you mentioned, Jim, with longer poems such as Howl, we would possibly take a month or longer.
I love this idea!!
Another possibility that would be in keeping with the occasional pursuit of formal challenges would be to investigate specific poetic forms, examples are many, in msg #238 I link to info on two specific forms. Unlike novelists, who tend to fixate their careers on one or no more than a handful of literary forms/styles, poets are often found trying their hands at many complex forms ranging from the intensely rigid to the challengingly amorphous. So instead of focusing on certain poets, perhaps some enjoyment can be found in focusing on certain forms and types across several poets?Also lets remember there are many living or at least recently living poets creating challenging work. I always feel as though poetry discussions quickly hone in on a very limited time period. I do like the idea of older poetry as well, as I believe Donne was mentioned earlier.
Will wrote: "Another possibility that would be in keeping with the occasional pursuit of formal challenges would be to investigate specific poetic forms, examples are many, in msg #238 I link to info on two spe..."Will, your suggestions are extremely interesting. If my vote counts for anything, I'll cast a vote here!
Mod
Yep. Totally teasing you about your unfortunate workload and how it impinges on your reading time.
If E.D.'s poems interest you, you could possibly string together a few that are thematically linked to discuss for a week, like maybe a few on Death, or Love, or Loneliness, or whatever catches your attention in her work.
@Will - A formal focus would also be an interesting approach. A few poems written in Form X one week, a few written in Form Y another. I'm certainly open to suggestion on ideas like this. The added benefit is it is likely many members would be learning about these forms for the first time.
Jim wrote:"Okay, flag is flying, let's see who salutes... "While I admire this outpouring of love for poetry on Brain Pain,I would like to sound a note of caution– are we biting off more than we can chew here?
As it is,so many books go unread by most of the members,Jim alone being The Solitary Reaper!
But if it can be managed,then I would be up for a reread of
T.S. Eliot Reads: The Wasteland, Four Quartets and Other
Poems.
Also,if someone well-versed in French lit,takes up the torch for Baudelaire's
Flowers of Evil: A Selection, I'd dive right in.
Ditto for:
Les Chants de Maldoror
Maybe in 2015,we could handle Ariosto's:
Orlando Furioso
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Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
The Aeneid (other topics)Cancer Ward (other topics)
Locus Solus (other topics)
Flowers of Evil: A Selection (other topics)
Orlando Furioso (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
E.E. Cummings (other topics)Sylvia Plath (other topics)
Alfred Tennyson (other topics)
Geraldo Borges (other topics)
Charles Baudelaire (other topics)
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Also, if we're in the mood for conceptually-challenging sci-fi, perhaps Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson's The Illuminatus! Trilogy: The Eye in the Pyramid/The Golden Apple/Leviathan would fit the bill (it's usually published as one volume, despite the "trilogy" label, and is best read that way). I think it's often terribly underrated, because it commits the double sin of being a "genre" work and also very funny. In my opinion it's quite good though, and we'd certainly have lots to discuss. As an example, the plot involves multiple universes and a lot of hallucinogenic drugs, but there's also a lot of stream-of-consciousness used throughout, so it's sometimes (intentionally) ambiguous who is who.
I really like Candiss' Milorad Pavic suggestion too. I've previously read Dictionary of the Khazars and just... didn't get it. But I know tons of people who love it, so I want to see what they see.