Rothfussians discussion

I'm thinking about how Kvothe uncovers (from scribbles in a book, I think), that some a medical researcher who killed and tortured many, many people, may have been one of the Amyr.

What's the purpose of this reveal in the story? It seems like a relatively straightforward bit of information. Is it foreshadowing, or a misdirection?

(aside: It's my prediction that the Amyr no longer exist, even though people still search for them.)

I'm in the "They exist but are hiding" camp. So The Butcher back story to me is just an extreme example of their motto "For the greater good.".

I think it works as it immediately puts the Amyr in the any means to an end camp and kind of sets their moral compass at chaotic good.

I never saw this man as a butcher, or someone fell, rather that he knew the usefulness of medical knowledge of the human body.

sure it wasn't pretty, or very pleasant, but yes, it was certainly for the greater good

Ions wrote: "I never saw this man as a butcher, or someone fell, rather that he knew the usefulness of medical knowledge of the human body.

sure it wasn't pretty, or very pleasant, but yes, it was certainly ..."

I think the estimate was around 20,000 people he mutilated and tortured and ultimately murdered to "acquire" that medical knowledge. At least I think that was the number of sets of bones or something they found when they captured him.

Seems like a monster to me. Analogous to Nazi doctors during WWII who conducted experiments in a similar way and also contributed to medical knowledge. Still monstrous.

Yah, Sim has the right of that argument. Vivisecting twenty thousand people is, as he says, monstrous. Even the Amyr couldn't withstand that stain on their image. Fifty years later they were disbanded.

Sanjiv wrote: "I'm thinking about how Kvothe uncovers (from scribbles in a book, I think), that some a medical researcher who killed and tortured many, many people, may have been one of the Amyr.

What's the purpose of this reveal in the story? It seems like a relatively straightforward bit of information. Is it foreshadowing, or a misdirection?

(aside: It's my prediction that the Amyr no longer exist, even though people still search for them.) "

That's the Duke of Gibea from northern Aturna, north of Simmon Dalonir's (dad's) duchy. He committed these profoundly rude acts for twenty years before the Tehlin Church and the Amyr moved against him, burning his estate and consequently a lot of the ill gotten knowledge he'd accumulated. The Amyr motto "Ivare Enim Euge" is in the illuminated scrollwork at the beginning of the volume Kvothe finds in the Archives.

It's meant to give us an idea of just how far "for greater good," has been taken and cast the Amyr in angled noir shadows. I'd hesitate to call them chaotic good, but they keep changing what that means with every edition, so who knows...

I think it foreshadow's Kvothe learning some disturbing information about them. We'll come face to face with something more troubling than Gibea and it's morality will be grayish.

(I think they still exist. I think Kvothe is one of them.)

Hmm...There is speculative support that the Chandrian didn't kill Kvothe's family. If that's true, who did? Possibly the Amyr. Which might mean the Chandrian are good, the Amyr evil. Or they just have differing philosophies. They could represent Order and Chaos, or any other diametrically opposed philosophies not necessarily as clear cut as good v. evil.



Also w/r/t "for the greater good". This essentially means "the ends justify the means." Historically, this phrase is extremely problematic. The example given with the doctor could be justified using for the greater good, but...This idea is almost the definition of a slippery slope. There are almost any number of atrocities one could commit under this motto while still technically remaining true to it.

Also, who decides what the greater good is? The Amyr? That would lend itself to abuse, by degrees and over time, so that what they view as for the greater good is seen by the rest of humanity as flat out evil.

Bill, what is the speculative support for the Chandrian not killing Kvothe's family. I am still pretty new to this forum, is there a thread I can read? Or is possible to be put into a nutshell?

Also, I hope the Amyr exist or that there is a good reason to explain the time that is spent on the search for them. (which I imagine there would be)

I posted a thread tonight in the theories section. (I didn't come up with the theory, but I'd like to see some discussion about it.) Basically, we, the readers, just assume the Chandrian killed his troupe. Nothing is stated explicitly.

edit: it's the "who killed Kvothe's parents" thread. Which probably could have been titled better.

After K's parents are killed, when the Chandrian leave it is because they sense something coming. K senses it too. If it isn't the Amyr coming, then we probably haven't been introduced to whoever it is yet. the best assumption though is that it IS the Amyr, which means they didn't kill K's parents.

Jason wrote: "After K's parents are killed, when the Chandrian leave it is because they sense something coming. K senses it too. If it isn't the Amyr coming, then we probably haven't been introduced to whoever i..."

It could be the Watchers. In any case, I don't want to sidetrack this thread, there's another thread for this topic.

Like Kvothe says, the Duke of Gibea committed untold atrocities to 'fund' his research. But as a result, how many lives were saved because of it? If it saved twice the number of lives that were lost does that make it okay? What is the value of a life, can they be traded?

All sorts of philosophical pitfalls.

Chris wrote: "Like Kvothe says, the Duke of Gibea committed untold atrocities to 'fund' his research. But as a result, how many lives were saved because of it? If it saved twice the number of lives that were los..."

Well, I think I alluded to this above, but the Amyr's philosophy equates to "the end justifies the means."

Traditional Judeo-Christian morality is that "the ends don't justify the means." Meaning, no, it's not ok to kill 10,000 people to save 20,0000 people.

I think PR has set the Amyr up for a fall, as alluded by Noah (I believe) in another thread. Classic case of good guys gone bad.

I was reading through TNOTW again. At one point Kvothe's father asks Kvothe for his shirt to fix, and Kvothe begins to make excuses. In response his father says offhand, "I know, I know, it was all for the greater good."
I don't think Arliden is part of the Amyr but it is an interesting turn of phrase in the light of the whole Amyr mystery.

Amyr = Men who were Shaped (see: Faen creatures) for the purpose of countering/killing/etc Haliax.

The originals still exist. The followers who came to be known as the Amyr moved underground.

Also: Kvothe is not Amyr. I doubt Kote is Amyr. There has been speculation that he is setting a trap for one of the Chandrian (which might be true), which would support the Kote=Amyr equation if it were true. However, the idea that Kote is entirely an act does not jibe with the locked chest that Kote cannot open.

Kvothe kills an Amyr. I can't remember precisely where it's at, but he did say that he fought with demons and killed an angel. Demons=Chandrian, Angel=Amyr.

Thoughts? Go!

Well, I don't know if the Amyr were shaped necessarily. But we know they weren't human per felurian. They're made primarily of Ruach I believe...which is something I have little to no concept of.

Also this means Selitos isn't human, which has always interested me greatly.

I think the possibility of the originals still existing, at least a few, is completely likely. Felurian is before fae and she is still living, so are the Chandrian, and as far as we know Aleph's Angels do the same. I think since none of the originals are human it's highly possible they aren't mortal either.

I don't think Kote or Kvothe are amyr either, but he has other reasons for setting a trap if that is so. However I've always taken Demons to equal Fae and creatures that inhabit it (which could possibly include the chandrian, I guess now that I'm thinking about it) and Angels to equal those crazy six winged beasts Aleph created. You know like Tehlu -

Jason wrote: "After K's parents are killed, when the Chandrian leave it is because they sense something coming. K senses it too. If it isn't the Amyr coming, then we probably haven't been introduced to whoever i..."

It could be the Singers. What ever those are, Haliax said he kept them safe from the Amyr, those dudes who killed people who saw the Cthaeh, and the Singers, whoever they are

in skarpi's 2nd story Aleph ask Selitos to become something.(Kvothe gets there in the middle of the story) Selitos asks Aleph “Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel?” Aleph said, “No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth.” Selitos bowed his head. “I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later.” Some of the Ruach murmured agreement with Selitos and went to stand with him, for they remembered Myr Tariniel and were filled with rage and hurt at Lanre’s betrayal. Selitos went to Aleph and knelt before him. “I must refuse, for I cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city . We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good.”


But Tehlu stood forward saying, “I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you.” He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides. Others came forward.

They came to Aleph, and he touched them. He touched their hands and eyes and hearts. The last time he touched them there was pain, and wings tore from their backs that they might go where they wished. Wings of fire and shadow . Wings of iron and glass. Wings of stone and blood. Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men . the fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power.Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold. Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight. None but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril. They mete out justice to the world, and Tehlu is the greatest of them all—”

The second group of "Ruach" must be the singers. I looked up "Ruach" and found some biblical references in genesis. from what I gather it means creators or something like that. I think that the people in this part were the " shapers" that Felurian was talking about. Some became Amyr and some became Singers.

It was the singers that were coming the day kvothe's parents died. they had wings and could fly. That's why Haliax looked to the sky when they were ready to kill Kvothe. "His cool voice trailed away as his shadowed hood slowly tilted to look toward the sky. There was an expectant silence. Those sitting around the fire grew perfectly still, their expressions intent. In unison they tilted their heads as if looking at the same point in the twilit sky."

And only the most powerful can see them. So kvothe couldn't have seen them. he was just a kid.

maybe the masters a the university are the modern day Amyr. That would explain the lack of info about them at the university.

another theory I have is that the Tehlin priests started out as the amyr and they went to far for the greater good and are now corrupt.

skarpi said to one of the Tehlin priests... “It’s not as if I expect you to bound off looking for Haliax and the Seven yourself. ‘Small deeds for small men,’ I always say."
If the chanderain are just kid stuff you would think the priest would have laughed at him but instead "Turning, the Justice snatched the clay cup off the bar and dashed it against Skarpi’s head, shattering it. “Do not speak in my presence!” he crackled. “You know nothing!”

@Amy, those are points I've come across in various threads, and I've sort of started to assume they're true. At the risk of falling into that trap where Rothfuss is making us *think* we've figured it out, only to give us whiplash by showing us how wrong we are (which I could totally see him doing), I'm generally assuming:

1) Skarpi is Tehlu.
2) Kvothe is Meluan's niece.
3) Lorren is Amyr. He combs the library, and sends out dudes to bring back more books for him to hide.

But, leave it to Rothfuss to turn all that on its head.

Kvothe is Meluan's niece huh?

Now there is a theory I've missed.

BAHAHAHA. Just teasin' Karen. ;)

Any News on release date?

Last I heard he was crossing his fingers for next year(2014) but depending on how all the back in forth goes might be 2015, doubtful it will be later than that in my opinion. He talks about it a little in his interview with Triangulation I believe, its on the blog.

I'm thinking (completely opinion) it will probably be late 2014 early 2015 at best.

@Amber... just had a heart attack! I was like, am I way off-base?!? LOL. Meanie :)

tee hee. I just couldn't resist.

Amy wrote: "in skarpi's 2nd story Aleph ask Selitos to become something.(Kvothe gets there in the middle of the story) Selitos asks Aleph “Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss ..."

Unless power is judged on innate ability perhaps. We can't deny Kvothe is a prodigy and has been pretty amazing from a young age. His potential and thus power for growth is pretty staggering...

Just felt I had to weigh in here! The Amyr are still around without a doubt the Cthearth confirms this telling K that the Maer has come very close to them without realising it, and I have always seen the original Amyr as figures of power at least equal to the Chandrian.
As for the rest/human Amyr my theory is when they were disbanded they took up hiding themselves as tinkers traveling musicians and other such traveling folk. As a tinker they can travel freely and be respected (everyone knows it's bad luck to treat a tinker badly), they and subtlety influence the people of nations as they a primary source of news from outside a local area and are virtually invisible people would remember a tinker but probably not the tinker,
In a similar way traveling musicians espicially with patronage can travel unhindered even into the houses of nobles allowing them access to private libraries and maybe even the ear of the rich and powerful.
I seriously doubt that any of the university professors are Amyr (although I suppose if any of them are the Lorren is the most likely) and definitely not all, well placed scriv's over the years would be enough to trim most of the library and we know from the bits that have been found the job hasn't been completed perfectly.
As for people who we have met the two I think the most likely candidates to be Amyr are Skarpi and Brendon they both left me thinking they had more going on than met the eyes.

I don't know what kind of support you could dredge up, but I really like the idea of the Tinkers being Amyr and kinda blending into the wallpaper. That'd be perfect in my opinion.

Don't think I could find much in the way of support just seems to fit into place in my head:) with the way they disappeared seemingly without a trace, the anonymity afforded by tinkers would have made it the best option for those who weren't already in secret. I suppose I could reference a few stories but any link would be tenuous at best as I could only look at stories post disbanding and I wouldn't be sure which ones those are.

Well, lack of evidence doesn't make it impossible. I never really considered it but I do like it now that I'm reading it. Makes sense in my mind as well.

In my head, when the Cthaeh said his master has almost found the Amyr. I always though of it as like a spiritual finding, as in he was close to finding a safehouse where they stored knowledge.

I have no idea why I thought this. But finding members makes more sense.

*giggle at finding members*

The Amyr were the Church's soldiers, though. These are the people who would have enforced the injunction against "traveling rabble," which included not just Ruh but Tinkers as well. And they were, from the snippets we get, wealthy. Knights and Lords.

It seems like it would be easier to disappear behind castle walls, into guard corps, and more traditional positions of power. Why give up your temporal amenities and wear the rags of folks you despised?

Tangentially, I've always been uneasy about Amyr at the University for similar reasons. They burned Caluptena. And Arcanists. There's a greater good and there's a wallowing in (relative) corruption and getting lost.

I would certainly agree that some of the Amyr would have as you say dissappeared behind the walls of castle's and such like. However making 2000+ vanish into the nobility and such overnight slightly implausible considering none were ever caught. And yes they did enforce the injunction but I would think only when they were obliged to do so (hardly for the greater good) therefore would have no trouble using them as cover once they were free of the church and king, and in the same line would have no trouble foregoing the comforts of life for the greater good.

I do agree with you about the Amyr at the university for different reasons admittedly, although I think we both have to concede the point that whatever happened to them when they disbanded they have probably infiltrated pretty much everywhere they want by this time.

Didnt the Cthaeh say that the Amyr are almost as hard to find as The Seven. And that the Maer has come close to them before. And what about the pot/vase/urn thing in Trebon. That had a picture of an Amyr on it, that was also well over 2000+ years old. When Kvothe is in the alley in Tarbean after being beat up, when he is KO there was a "bird with wings of fire and shadow". Later on when Kvothe is listening to Skarpi's second story when the Amyr are created they also have wings of fire and shadow.

I also think that the Amyr were created to battle The Seven. Because Stelos(?) was one of them. Also during (ahhh what's his name... the one who helps the urchins in Tarbean) story it says that when the chief demon was running he destroyed 6 cities. But the seventh survived. This lines up with the stories of Skarpi and of the Adem. 6 cities fell and one survived. I know that im kind of guessing at the locations of dots, and connecting them. But this had been heavy on my mind for a while.

Oh man, now I'm torn!

The Amyr were the Church's soldiers, though. These are the people who would have enforced the injunction against "traveling rabble," which included not just Ruh but Tinkers as well.

I forgot about this and its a great point.

But I also see where Matt is going with this

And yes they did enforce the injunction but I would think only when they were obliged to do so (hardly for the greater good) therefore would have no trouble using them as cover once they were free of the church and king

I mean, if you are trying to be on the down low, making it seem as if their are not positive connections between the church and traveling groups of people would be a good way to go. However....

I still have the same question that Thistlepong poses which is Why give up your temporal amenities and wear the rags of folks you despised?


I just don't see Why it would be necessary, before I could support the idea of the Tinkers being in line with Amyr and the Church Amyr trying to make it seem as if their is no affiliation, it seems their should be a legitimate explanation of why that's necessary which I just can't think up.

If they could fade into the background as more powerful players, why forfeit that ability? If they had to make some into Tinkers to protect and hide them, why purposely prosecute them which only leads to the same result as if they'd been found out as amyr. And if that wasn't the original intention and only had to done later, why did it have to be done? If it was done to make it seem the two groups weren't connected, why did they need to seem that way?

Dilemma!

Also @Jack

I also think that the Amyr were created to battle The Seven. Because Stelos(?) was one of them

This is completely correct. The Amyr's true and original purpose is simply revenge on the Chandrian. Kvothe's a shoe in for membership really. LOL

Ok, my head is starting to hurt a bit. But what of the original Amyr. You know, the ones in Skarpi's story. Where do they fit into all of this. In the beginning of book one the Chronicler looks into K's eyes and says "these are the eyes of a man who killed an angel." Could that possibly mean that K kills one of the Amyr? Or is it Tehlu, wait isn't Tehlu one of the original Amyr as well? So now what?

Also @ Amber

Never thought on the Tinker idea before. But it has a lot of holes. I always thought that Tinkers have a connection to the Fae.

@ what "the greater good foreshadows" -- Kvothe's (or Kote's) walked away from the world, beaten down. Is the current war somehow going on "for the greater good," and Kvothe has neither the conviction to stand against it, or to continue to support it?

I've always had an itch about the tinkers. I don't know what their role is, but I just... feel there is more to them than simply traveling salesmen. People regard them just as they do the Chandrian, uniformly. It is understood that it is unwise, for some un-named reason, to be rude/disrespectful/dishonest with a tinker.

there was something feluran(sp) said about seeing the fae with pack mule laden... I can't recall the quote verbatim, and I've only read the audiobooks, so I can't turn to the book for quotes

Ions wrote: "there was something feluran(sp) said about seeing the fae with pack mule laden... I can't recall the quote verbatim, and I've only read the audiobooks, so I can't turn to the book for quotes"

“most fae are sly and subtle folk who step as soft as chimney smoke. some go among your kind enshaedn, glamoured as a pack mule laden, or wearing gowns to fit a queen.” She gave me a frank look. “we know enough to not be seen.”

thanks thistle. that's right, it was more about the mule than the tinker! way to go, beer!
lol

@Jack

But what of the original Amyr. You know, the ones in Skarpi's story. Where do they fit into all of this.

They're just the original Amyr, they meant to get revenge on the Chandrian, eventually that idea seemed to spread out some among members, and as time passed, at least that is my assumption, and that led to the more popular idea of Amyr, that of which Kvothe most often refers too, which eventually took it too far and had to be disband. (Don't judge me for my run on sentences) The original Amyr fit in because we know they're not mortals per Felurian, thus the conclusion is often drawn the originals are still alive and well, working on their ultimate goal of revenge. Personally, they weren't all that important to me until Felurian mentioned that.

In the beginning of book one the Chronicler looks into K's eyes and says "these are the eyes of a man who killed an angel." Could that possibly mean that K kills one of the Amyr? Or is it Tehlu, wait isn't Tehlu one of the original Amyr as well? So now what?

The likely answer is that Chronicler is not referencing Kvothe killing an Amyr in this sentence. Amyr are not angels. Angels were created by Aleph, and Selitos was invited to become one, but because he would not be allowed to seek retribution against the Chandrian if he joined, Selitos instead formed the Amyr. It's a bit confusing because the Amyr and the Angels are actually formed at the same time. What Kvothe most like does is kill an actual Angel created by Aleph or Chronicler is using the term angel loosely, sort of like killed an "innocent". Personally I never took this sentence in the literal sense, but many fans do.

Tehlu isn't an Amyr, he is an Angel, and yes he is an original one, he was ordained, so to speak, by Aleph. Aleph is basically "god", he spun the world in the beginning and after the creation war he basically installed the karmic forces of the world by created said Angels. He's one of the only people who compares in power to Selitos.

Hope that helps, I had to read this part so many times and ask for explanations a lot before it made any sense to me.

wow... I dont know what to say... I have read the books 5 times and never looked at it from that point of view, ever. But if Aleph is the "one god" why is he not worshiped. Only Tehlu, and he works for Aleph.

Because Tehlu was reborn into the world as a man, Menda who then rid the world of the final "demons" including the ultimate demon, Encanis.
Aleph never returns to the world that we know of after the creation war which is before mortals proliferated the world.
Thus mortals have little knowledge of him, from what I have gathered.

I've read that Lorren is a Ruh, and that the Amyr has hidden themselves in traveling artists, and so Kvothe may be somehow relate to the Amyr? And why Lorren? I didn't get this at all...

None of that is cannon.
Whatever you read was just fan theories. Lorren being an amyr is a pretty big theory some fans follow.

All we know is that Lorren is the Master of the Archives. No idea if he's connected to any other factions outside the University.

Doubt Kvothe's an Amyr, deductive reasoning. The Chandrian fear the Amyr, confirmed cannon, doesn't make logical sense they would be killing a group of Amyr while discussing they're afraid of the Amyr, or going anywhere near them at all, if you follow the theory the Chandrian didn't kill Kvothe's troupe. If it's so easy to dispose of Amyr, then their wouldn't be any reason to fear them.

Hope that helps. And that's why you didn't get any of that, its all B.S.
A lot of us fans just like speculating about the story trajectory while we wait for Pat to finish up.

Oh, got it now. Lorren has totally acess to the books from the Archives, he can also take them to somewhere nobody would find, so he can easily hide the Amyr's story, as much as Chandrian's (why Kvothe do not find anything about them in the University? Chandrian wouldn't kill all the students and masters, I guess... May Lorren has these books hidden too). Is Lorren hiding the Chandrian's books like he's hiding Amyr's, or something like that?

I think that's the premise behind the Lorren is an Amyr theory.

I also believe the fan consensus is that a piece of history is also trying to be cut away, possibly by the Tehlin church. That's why Skarpi gets arrested for blasphemy and the Chandrian/Amyr stuff is so hard to get ahold of.

No one knows for sure, but I think those are the main ideas by fans.

I wonder what happened before all this, why the Tehlin church, the Amyr and the Chandrian are trying to hide something. Amyr and Chandrian hiding themselves and the church something that has past, that's amistery that DoS may tell the truth...

Amen