Horror Aficionados discussion

I thought it might be fun to have a monthly discussion on an interesting short story...or two. Who knows? Let's see how well this one is attended.

What is it about? From Wikipedia:

"Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" is a frequently anthologized short story written by Joyce Carol Oates. It was inspired by three Tucson, Arizona murders committed by Charles Schmid, which were profiled in Life magazine in an article written by Don Moser on March 4, 1966; the story was published a few months later. Oates said that she dedicated the story to Bob Dylan because she had been inspired to write it after listening to his song "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue."

The story was loosely adapted into the 1985 film Smooth Talk, starring Laura Dern and Treat Williams.

The main character of Oates's story is Connie, a beautiful but somewhat irresponsible fifteen-year-old girl who is at odds with with her mother, herself once a beauty, and with her dutiful, "steady", and homely older sister. She spends most of her evenings picking up boys at a drive-in restaurant, and one evening captures the attention of a menacing stranger in a gold jalopy. While her parents are away at her aunt's barbecue, two men pull up in front of her house and call Connie out.

Link to the story: http://jco.usfca.edu/works/wgoing/tex...

Cool...I'm in. I'll post my thoughts once I re-read the story.

Some assume that Connie survives her abduction because of the title. But I think it's just the mantra of any mother of a teenager and probably something that Connie's mother has asked Connie but not her sister, June, often.

Most women will recognize the odd mother/daughter bond, which includes a kind of jealousy on the mother's part who has to accept that her best years are possibly history, but her daughter's are just beginning. Boy, I'm glad I have a son.

I've always felt that Connie was somehow being punished for her budding sexuality. That her carefree ways and her acknowledgment that, yes, she is beautiful and sexy enough to turn heads, should somehow be reigned in. That she was too full of herself.

Just finished this short story and I have to agree with you, Tressa. It is like Connie is being punished for her vanity and untroubled behavior. I think this behavior is emphasized by the older sister, June, who is "plain" and "steady". If Connie did what was expected of her staying at the shopping plaza or going to the family barbecue, she wouldn't have attracted Friend's attention. He even refers to June as "sad" further emphasizing that she doesn't warrant his attention like Connie does.

Glad you read and enjoyed it, Margie. It's always been a favorite story of mine. I can imagine the range of emotion Connie is put through when she goes from feeling high off her youth and good looks to being cornered by a stranger attracted to her youth and good looks.

I do feel that Connie is being punished for her looks and attitude. And there's the question. Would one prefer to be "plain" and "steady" like the wallflower June and not catch a man's attention and live to old age or take one's chances by being flirty, fun, and dolled up?

I like to joke about how I'm safe from serial killers because I'm tall, brunette, and hippy, and so I don't fit their criteria at all. But maybe I would love to be Connie for a day and take my chances.

Do you think the first sentence because it uses a past tense means that Connie was killed by Friend? There is some speculation about whether she was kidnapped, raped, and dropped back at home (that's how the movie ends) or succumbed to her "fate" and was killed.

The last paragraph to me has always hinted that she died and was buried somewhere:

"My sweet little blue-eyed girl," he said in a half-sung sigh that had nothing to do with her brown eyes but was taken up just the same by the vast sunlit reaches of the land behind him and on all sides of him—so much land that Connie had never seen before and did not recognize except to know that she was going to it.

But I could be reading more into the sentence that Oates meant. I'd love to hear other opinions.

I think I am more like June; I am steady and like to play it safe. I would definitely like to be more like Connie for at least one day and take my chances. Connie seems to be living life a little more fully.

IMO, the first and last paragraphs suggest that Connie was killed by Friend. I don't think that Friend's conversation with Connie suggests that he is going to bring her back. It just sounds very final to me. I, also, do not think this is the first time Friend has done something like this, there have probably been other girls.

“I’ll tell you how it is, I’m always nice at first, the first time. I’ll hold you so tight you won’t think you have to try to get away or pretend anything because you’ll know you can’t.”

I hope I don't come off like Connie's mother. I'm reading this story now as a 43-year-old mother and remember reading it back in my carefree twenties. I think I identified more with Connie back in those days, and wouldn't have wanted to go to that picnic either. :P

I think most young people to a certain degree are like Connie, no matter what they look like, and I don't begrudge them their innocence. I feel Connie is unfairly compared to June by her mother and aunts; June has moved beyond the teenage years and is settling comfortably into adulthood, with her reliable job and her sensible clothing.

I agree that Friend--and his friend--have shown many young girls like Connie to their shallow graves. This story gets more eerie each time I read it.

I love all the secret clues hidden within the story. I read it years ago as a part of a high school classroom so I don't remember it as well as I should. But a few things I do remember:

1. Arnold Friend - Take away a few letters and the name becomes "An Old Fiend" another name for the devil.

2. Arnold walks as though his boots don't quite fit - as though maybe he doesn't have feet but has hooves.

3. The license plate numbers - if you add them all up they equal 666.

I don't remember any more right now - but I'm sure there probably were more symbols of evil.

Just read it, and am going to think on it awhile before I comment...

Traci L. wrote: "I love all the secret clues hidden within the story. I read it years ago as a part of a high school classroom so I don't remember it as well as I should. But a few things I do remember:

1. Arnold ..."

I didn't pick up on any of that but enjoyed it as just a story. Those little tidbits just made it that much cooler.

Looking forward to your thoughts, Glenda. If you ever get a chance watch the movie Smooth Talk with Laura Dern. I saw it back when it came out before I read the story. Seems like (view spoiler)[the movie hints at her being raped and murdered but the story makes it seem like she survived but is changed by the assault. (hide spoiler)]

Interesting tidbits about story, Traci. Thanks.

Tressa wrote: "Looking forward to your thoughts, Glenda. If you ever get a chance watch the movie Smooth Talk with Laura Dern. I saw it back when it came out before I read the story. Seems like [spoilers removed]..."

Oddly enough, I've seen the movie, Tressa. I had no idea it was based on a short story. That must be why the story seemed kind of familiar!

I just reread the story - either I remembered the number clue wrong or my teacher told us wrong but the number is 69 - which ties into the idea of loss of innocence in the story. And the sexual seduction of Friend.

Anyone old enough to think back on when they were Connie's age? You do feel this restlessness and this power. I guess it comes from newfound sexuality. Girls that age sizzle. Connie's got one foot in childhood and one in adulthood and she's scared. Anyone think she's being punished for her sexuality?

I agree, Tressa. When you're that age, the world is your oyster. You're immortal, and as you said, you sizzle.
I remember that feeling. Every day was an adventure waiting for me, and nothing bad could touch me.

Unfortunately, the part of the brain that enables the understanding the consequences of the actions we take doesn't develop until our early twenties.
When I look back on the choices I made and chances I took without even realizing it, I blanche!
Some of us travel through life with angels on both shoulders, and others, like Connie, draw evil to them like a magnet. I personally think she was no different than any of us. Many of us lived with being compared to a sibling and coming up short, and/or an abundance of negativity from a parent.
I think the scariest thing about the story is that it shows us the randomness of life. There but for the grace of God goes any one of us. Simple choices can make or break the balance, and knowing that is very scary.

glenda wrote: "I agree, Tressa. When you're that age, the world is your oyster. You're immortal, and as you said, you sizzle.
I remember that feeling. Every day was an adventure waiting for me, and nothing bad ..."

Very well put!

Punished by who? Her mother? Friend? Society? God? The Devil? The writer? The reader?

It's an old theme. Women have been 'punished' from Eve to Taylor Swift (Lol- I had to). And it's definitely an idea horror fans have seen time and time again. It has even become a trope - a joke even - the 'slut' always dies and the virgin always lives. Really. Forget sex education in school - just show kids some slashed movies - that last was a joke btw.

So could there be something to Connie being punished for sexuality? Absolutely. But my interpretation is a little different...

On the surface we have a story about a young girl named Connie who attracts the attention of an older boy. He's dangerous. Seductive. Tempting. She wants him. She's afraid of him. Terrified even. He threatens her (or does he?). And when she takes that step outside we know her innocence is lost - her childhood - her virginity (perhaps by rape - perhaps not) - and quite possibly her life.
One of the strongest images in the story for me are Friend's feet. He leans against the car. He walks strangely. His feet don't fit his boots. He loses his balance. There is too many references in such a short story to be coincidence. Might he have Hoofed feet? Like the devil? But also like another figure - Pan. This is yet another strong symbol of sexuality.
Actually reading this again - older - I was surprised by all the sexuality.
Why does Connie open the door? Has she given up? Does she believe there is no escape?
Or has she chosen of her own freewill?
In my mind it has always been the last one. It has to be her that comes to him - and in the end she does.
This isn't a story with one answer - that's what makes it so powerful - but this is just how I have always read it.

Although I wasn't wild and reckless at that age, there are some decisions I made that make me wonder why I'm still alive.

Connie is so happy about being young and beautiful and getting noticed by boys and you can see how much she wants to break out and experience the first taste a of adulthood. When Friend drove up she wasn't even afraid. She was flirty in a situation she should have had a feeling was very dangerous.

The scariest part was when he let her know he knew exactly where her parents and sister were.

Not only does he know where her family is - he knows exactly what they are doing at the moment.
I saw this being part of the seduction and temptation - she wanted more than her family had and he knows it. Look how boring they are, he was telling her. You want more. You deserve more -

How about when he mentions the dead neighbor?? Creepy!! And when he begs her to come out using all the slang he can think of - past and present?
Friend is one of the creepiest characters in literature. Makes you wish it were a long book instead of a short story.

So true, Traci. At one moment he is enticing and exciting, even magical with his ability to 'divine' what her family is doing and everything about Connie. Then at the next, he's like a crazy automaton on crack- babbling and breaking down. Yikes!

That story creeped me out. I didn't see anything seductive about the guy; his character screamed stalker/pedophile to me.

I still like the Arnold Friend is the Devil theory best, but I found this online and thought it was interesting. It is an explanation of inspiration Oates had in writing the story -

In the mid 1960s, a young man in Arizona named Charles Schmid developed a sinister reputation as “The Pied Piper of Tucson.” Schmid stood out in the small town of Tucson. He was not handsome—he was short and stuffed his boots to make himself taller, and he had an eccentric appearance, with dyed black hair, makeup, and a fake mole on his upper lip—but he had a charisma and charm that made him attractive to young girls from the area. Schmid was the son of wealthy parents, and he used the trappings of wealth—a nice car, elaborate parties, gifts for his admirers—to enhance his alluring persona and lure teenagers into his realm. Unbeknownst to Tucson, Schmid was a serial killer, and three teenage girls became his victims. He buried them in the desert.

Leigh wrote: "That story creeped me out. I didn't see anything seductive about the guy; his character screamed stalker/pedophile to me."

I agree, Leigh, that there is nothing seductive about the guy.
However, there are many girls like Connie, who at that tender age, are flattered by attention from an older 'boy'. Remember, when Friend showed up at her door, it wasn't the first time she'd seen him. In her mind, he was the hot guy with the cool car at the drive in, so she felt no fear at all, just excitement that he would seek her out. It made her feel special.
As well, the story takes place in a time where life was seen as quite a bit safer and the world more loving than it is now.
Your generation was taught at a much younger age about the dangers 'out there,' both by your parents, and at school. Connie was doubtless never warned of 'stranger danger.'
The world was still influenced by the Love Generation, and whether for good or bad, we were a lot more trusting.

Apparently Schmid also inspired Ketchum to write

Traci L. wrote: "I still like the Arnold Friend is the Devil theory best, but I found this online and thought it was interesting. It is an explanation of inspiration Oates had in writing the story -

In the mid ..."

That is almost a precise description of the character, Ray, in Jack Kethum's
The Lost, down to the stuffed boots, the mole, and everything. I'd bet money that Ketchum got his idea from the same story.

Yup. We crossed posts. Thought I was done with Ketchum for awhile after TGND but now I want to read The Lost after I finish Laymon's Island...

The Lost is very different than TGND. More of a suspense/mystery. Not a bad film version either.

The Lost is a good book.