Victorians! discussion

For discussion of these chapters

I just love the opening sentences of Kim. I suppose that children today aren't allowed to play "King of the Castle" during recess in schools because people can get their knees or hands scraped as they are pushed off whatever (in my childhood it was a rock about two feet high in our dirt playground) representes the castle, and the game (activity might be a better word) stresses competition over cooperation, but it was very much a part of my growing up (with its traditional rhyme "I'm the king of the castle, and you're a dirty rascal"), and I can just see Kim having gained the top of the heap and triumphing over the other boys below.

The Lahore of the book, by the way, is not Lahore India, but the Lahore which is now in Pakistan but was in India before the division in 1947.

The Punjab, in Northwest India and Northeast Pakistan, has been fought over since time immemorial, including an invasion by Alexander the Great in 326 B.C. The British annexed the Punjab in about 1850, and were in firm control at the time Kim was written.

When most Americans think of India today, they tend to think, I believe, of central and southern India, but here, at least at the start of the book, we are up in the northwest corner.

'Let me up!' shrilled little Chota Lal in his gilt-embroidered cap. His father was worth perhaps half a million sterling, but India is the only democratic land in the world.

What a contrast with the England of 1900, the late days of Victoria (who took title Empress of India in 1876) and the England in which Kim would have been initially read. An England where class was dominant, where the son of a rich man would never be allowed to scrabble in the dirt with a penniless urchin.

To most readers of Kim, India would be, I believe, an foreign and mysterious world, foreign in location (few other than merchants and civil servants would have visited it) and exotic in its mindset, religion, and customs. I try to imagine what this intimate look at the India few Westerners saw, seen through the eyes of a bazaar child, would have seemed like as it was read in the drawing rooms and discussed over the mahogany dinner tables and silver service of the upper classes (waited on by obsequious servants who were even themselves far, far above the status of lowly Kim.)

I think to many even today, India is still a far away and mysterious place. That being said, the first three chapters do introduce us to the young boy Kim and show us that he is adroit in the art of getting what he wants. He does typify what we have come to know as a street child as postulated through various movies and books. It is my understanding that many consider this book stereotypical and have harsh criticisms for Kypling's handling of this topic.

I am hoping it does pick up a bit as right now, I am struggling paying the novel the attention it deserves.

Marialyce wrote: "It is my understanding that many consider this book stereotypical and have harsh criticisms for Kypling's handling of this topic.
"

Many people today do indeed think that. You're not alone. And in some ways, perhaps, his characters have become stereotypes.

But perhaps it's fair to ask whether, as he wrote them, they were stereotypes, or whether they represented real people he had known in his life, and gradually over time turned into stereotypes?

I'm enjoying the contrast between Kim and the lama. And I think I will start to bookmark Kim/lama-quotes...

" 'Pity it is that these and such as these could not be freed from the Wheel of Things,' said the lama.
'Nay, then would only evil people be left on the earth, and who would give us meat and shelter?' quoth Kim..."

I have tried and this is just not for me. I have looked for something, anything that would cause me to want to continue to read this story but unfortunately there is nothing.

Beve wrote: "I have tried and this is just not for me. I have looked for something, anything that would cause me to want to continue to read this story but unfortunately there is nothing."

I'm not so terribly disappointed, but I have to admit that I'm not liking it a lot.

As Marialyce was saiyng up to now it describes "what know as a street child as postulated through various movies and books, but that's not enough.
I hope it gets a bit more "catching" later on ...

Everyman wrote: "Many people today do indeed think that. You're not alone. And in some ways, perhaps, his characters have become stereotypes.

But perhaps it's fair to ask whether, as he wrote them, they were stereotypes, or whether they represented real people he had known in his life, and gradually over time turned into stereotypes? ..."

I think it might be a stew of both... the real India of the times is present in the events and street scenes, and probably in the characters and their relationships. The stereotypes would have been those that existed at the time that Kipling wrote the story, and as such they should be seen with that perspective. After all, Gone with the Wind is full of presumed stereotypes, including language that used the word 'nigger', but that doesn't negate the book as an incomparable Civil War story as seen from the point of view of the South.

Kim is referred to as an autobiographical work, which I take to mean that Kim embodies Kipling's experience of India as a child and adolescent. Kim is a child of white parents who has been so thoroughly absorbed into the Indian culture that it seems he is either Indian or half-caste in the reading... an acculturation that also happened to Kipling.

I think Kipling had a unique perspective as a writer, bringing his multi-cultural background and love of different people & their behaviors and religions into his stories. Seeing the world through Kim's eager young eyes, while the lama is constantly commenting on the Wheel of Things that people are strapped to, and the straight and true path of the Way, is a wonderful balance to reveal the story of India under British rule.

I like what T.S. Eliot had to say about Kipling:
"An immense gift for using words, an amazing curiosity and power of observation with his mind and with all his senses, the mask of the entertainer, and beyond that a queer gift of second sight, of transmitting messages from elsewhere, a gift so disconcerting when we are made aware of it that thenceforth we are never sure when it is not present: all this makes Kipling a writer impossible wholly to understand and quite impossible to belittle."

Janice George wrote: "Kim is referred to as an autobiographical work, which I take to mean that Kim embodies Kipling's experience of India as a child and adolescent. "

I wonder about that. Kipling didn't grow up in India during the ages of Kim's life. I'm not sure we're told exactly how old Kim is at the start of the book, but probably eight to ten. I think he's about 16 at the end of the book. (Other people have written sequels of Kim's adulthood.)

Kipling was sent back to school in England when he was 5, and I don't believe that he returned for any length of time, if at all, until he was 16 when he returned to take a job his father had gotten him in Lahore. So all those years from 5 to 16 he spent in England. So I'm not sure in what sense Kim could be considered autobiographical.

Everyman wrote: "'Let me up!' shrilled little Chota Lal in his gilt-embroidered cap. His father was worth perhaps half a million sterling, but India is the only democratic land in the world.

What a contrast with..."

This struck me at the beginning as from what I am aware Indian Hindus have a very strict caste system and the difference between the many religions can often lead to violence. These opening chapters paint a very different picture to more modern novels set in India so I am wondering whether Kipling is romanticising or if things were very different in that time,or...just that India is such a massive country there is much difference in customs between separate areas.

I have enjoyed these first chapters and the relationship between the boy and the old man where the boy is the guide. My only thing is whether to read the many notes or to ignore them and have a smoother reading experience.

Clari wrote: "These opening chapters paint a very different picture to more modern novels set in India so I am wondering whether Kipling is romanticising or if things were very different in that time,or...just that India is such a massive country there is much difference in customs between separate areas."

Or, perhaps, that cast distinctions didn't matter to children at the time. (And maybe not today.) Children, as the song in South Pacific notes, have to be carefully taught to hate and fear. Perhaps Kim and his friends hadn't been taught that yet, although Kim is certainly aware that as an English child he is different from the native children.

Clari wrote: "My only thing is whether to read the many notes or to ignore them and have a smoother reading experience. "

I would do whatever works best for you, but I have read the book several times and have never read a single note, so they certainly aren't critical for enjoyment of the work. In fact, I'm a bit surprised to find that there are editions with so many notes that they could be cumbersome. The edition I'm reading has a short introduction but not a single note.

Everyman wrote: "Clari wrote: "My only thing is whether to read the many notes or to ignore them and have a smoother reading experience. "

I would do whatever works best for you, but I have read the book several t..."

They are mostly glossary notes I've noticed. I'm reading Kim on my Kindle, so each note is a brief click away, and I do appreciate the definitions.

Everyman wrote: "Janice George wrote: "Kim is referred to as an autobiographical work, which I take to mean that Kim embodies Kipling's experience of India as a child and adolescent. "

I wonder about that. Kiplin..."

I'm picking most of my information up in the Wikipedia pages on Kipling and his works. I know that Kipling was in England from the ages of 5 to 16, where he says he was badly abused by the host family until he was able to stay with his aunt. I think the reference to Kim being semi-autobiographical was based on Kipling's sense of place... when he returned at the age of 16, he felt he was home.

Here are a couple observations he made about living in India as a child, and then returning --

"In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she (the Portuguese ayah, or nanny) or Meeta (the Hindu bearer, or male attendant) would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we had been dressed, with the caution 'Speak English now to Papa and Mamma.' So one spoke 'English', haltingly translated out of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in".

"So, at sixteen years and nine months, but looking four or five years older, and adorned with real whiskers which the scandalised Mother abolished within one hour of beholding, I found myself at Bombay where I was born, moving among sights and smells that made me deliver in the vernacular sentences whose meaning I knew not. Other Indian-born boys have told me how the same thing happened to them." This arrival changed Kipling, as he explains, "There were yet three or four days’ rail to Lahore, where my people lived. After these, my English years fell away, nor ever, I think, came back in full strength".

Here is the Wiki page on Kipling -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudyard_...

And here is the Wiki page on Kim -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_(novel)

Janice George wrote: "Kim is referred to as an autobiographical work, which I take to mean that Kim embodies Kipling's experience of India as a child and adolescent."

I can't remember reading anything that referring Kim as Kipling's autobiograpichal work. I found his other work such as his short story "Baa Baa Black Sheep" & Stalky & Co coincide more with his life experience. Both are wonderful writing too, btw. Funnily I remember reading his autobiography Something Of Myself and felt rather dissapointed with it.

Anyway, I've read Kim at least twice, and it still managed to captivate me. It's hard for me to put the book down; somehow knowing the story made me more eager to reach my favorites parts. In these 3chapters the relationship between Kim & the lama is still growing and it's fun to see Kim larking about with his adventurous game.

astried wrote: "Janice George wrote: "Kim is referred to as an autobiographical work...."

I can't remember reading anything that referring Kim as Kipling's autobiograpichal work. ..."

In the background thread I mention that Kipling's father was in fact the curator of the Lahore museum, the same museum that the lama walked into, and it is a description of Kipling's father who meets and talks with the lama in the museum in the beginning chapter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_(novel)

I'm a little slow in reading this one... I do like it though. I was just wondering how old Kim is. I'm not sure if I missed the reference to his age. At times he seems like a man, but then acts so much like a little boy. I am guessing 12ish? If someone could enlighten me so I can have a smoother reading experience by imagining Kim to be the right age. I've never read Kipling before this, and have been pleasantly surprised by his voice. It's as if I can see him sitting there, telling me the story.

Samm wrote: "I'm a little slow in reading this one... I do like it though. I was just wondering how old Kim is. I'm not sure if I missed the reference to his age. At times he seems like a man, but then acts ..."

Latish in chapter 1, when Kim leads his lama (interesting that Kipling does not capitalize lama, at least in the Gutenberg edition) to Mahbub Ali's place, we are told "Kim had had many dealings with Mahbub in his little life, especially between his tenth and his thirteenth year..." So he is at least 13, and I presume probably that now or maybe just 14. But probably 13.

Samm wrote: " I've never read Kipling before this, and have been pleasantly surprised by his voice. It's as if I can see him sitting there, telling me the story. "

That's one of Kipling's strengths, in my view. He isn't a "deep" writer, but he's a superb story teller, both in his fiction and in his poetry. Sometimes you have to swallow a bit hard not to be offended by some of his views, but I think it helps to remember that he was writing back in Victorian times and naturally reflected their values rather than ours, but as you note, as a storyteller he is superb.

Everyman wrote: "Samm wrote: "I'm a little slow in reading this one... I do like it though. I was just wondering how old Kim is. I'm not sure if I missed the reference to his age. At times he seems like a man, b..."

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I only wish that I had read Kipling before this. I still don't know why I stayed away from his works.

At the end of chapter 3, the incident with the old man wielding the whip, it was not clear to me if the old man had actually mistakenly hit his son with the whip for blocking the road. Also, was the point of this scene to show that the corrupt police stood by and watched this unfold without intervening? Can someone help me here?

Or, is it the son of the Old Soldier swinging the whip and we never learn who the carter is?

I took it that the rider was the son of the old soldier who had been talking with Kim and the lama, and that the rider had been whipping the owner of the cart which had blocked the road.

I'm way behind in reading Kim, but this is one of those wonderful examples of encouragement from these boards. Enough of the story seems familiar that I may have read this, possibly even in grade school, but largely it is like a new reading to me, at the very least with very different perspectives. I just decided I could read the notes here for chapters 1-3 and I thank you all for the excellent ones they are.

Everyman, thanks for the insight. The passage was vague, but I think that's the most likely explanation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...



"He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher—the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore Museum...."

Kipling, Rudyard (2010-04-25). Kim: Illustrated by J. Lockwood Kipling (p. 3). Durrant Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Lily wrote: "http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia..."

I wonder whether the police would be so tolerant of a boy sitting astride it today!

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia..."

I wonder whether the police would be so tolerant of a boy sitting astride it today!"

You mean something like this, only playing King of the Mountain instead of posing sedately? (Notice the burnished nose.)

http://www.newalbanyschools.us/newsro...

http://www.serendipityrancher.com/ee-...

http://friendsofmarwari.org.uk/pages/...

The above tells of the fabled history, the almost extinction, and recent renewed popularity of the Marwari and Kathiawari horse breeds (strongly linked).

Some fascinating background on the Kathiawari horse (in spoiler to control length of post only):

(view spoiler)[
"The Kathiawari horse comes from India's north western coast, the Kathiawar Peninsula, although the breed also now populates Maharashtra, Gujerat and southern Rajasthan. The Kathiawari shares it's early origins with the Marwari horse of Indian, but having been bred in a different region, has acquired a different name. The environment and selected breeding lines have also differentiated this breed somewhat from the Marwari horse.

"The precise origins of the breed were not recorded but the Kathiyawari horse was developed prior to 1526 and the beginning of the reign of the Moghul Emperors from a native stock of mixed type. Some of this stock derived from the Kabuli and Baluchi (breeds from the north) which were in turn derived from desert horses and steppe horses. Many such 'types' and breeds often had the typical curved ears and dry head of the current Kathiawari. The pacing ability of the modern breed has derived likewise. After the Moghuls and under the British Raj, Arabian horses joined the mix, having been imported from South Africa as well as the Arabian Gulf.

"Princes were the breeders of the Kathiyawari horse, and each prince's house concentrated on it's own strain which was then often named after a particular foundation mare of that strain. There are twenty-eight such strains that are still recognized. From earliest times the breed was well known and prized for it beauty and high status as a war horse, and like most desert breeds could and can survive heat, poor feed and low water intake.

"In the early 1800's the 'kattywar' horse was considered by the Mahratta and British cavalry to be greatly superior to all others and the Bombay Gazetter of Kathiawar, in 1880 described the breed in great detail. The current Kathiyawari is still used throughout India by the police as well as being highly valued in its native area.

"While resembling an Arabian generally, the breed is also highly distinctive. The extreme curve of the ears, with tips touching, and highly mobile ears, are unique. At times this feature has been a goal of some breeders, over other more important features. The very best Kathiawari horses are very attractive and are often less that 15 hands in height, with limbs lighter in bone than many western standards. Colors are varied, but often dun is found with a dorsal stripe which proclaims a long history reaching back to the primitive, true wild horse (Sorraia, or Tarpan).

"Also, from the heritage of long ago pacing horses of Turkestan , Iran and Afghanistan, the Kathiawari is famous for performing the 'revaal', a fast, comfortable, pacing gait." [Bold added.]

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse...

(hide spoiler)]