Victorians! discussion

For discussion of these chapters

I've found that the time has moved very quickly from when we first meet Kim to the point in these chapters where he has left school, Kim seems to be the same boy though with the same fearless sense of adventure.
The adult spies seem to have a similar outlook to Kim, seeing the danger of their lives all as part of the 'great game'. I would wish for Kim to remain with the Lama and they discover the mystical river together, but Kim in this section is excited at being part of the spy network so I assume that is the choice he will make.

He is a typical young man is he not? They always seemed to be enticed by the thrill of the game and one can see that Kim readily and wholeheartedly wants to play the game. I wonder at this point if he knows how serious it is, or is that thrill just too much to say no to? Perhaps too, he is not permitted to say no.

Marialyce wrote: "He is a typical young man is he not? They always seemed to be enticed by the thrill of the game and one can see that Kim readily and wholeheartedly wants to play the game. I wonder at this point if..."

I was thinking the same thing as I was travelling to work this morning - does Kim realise the seriousness and potential outcomes of what he is taking on, or is he over-powered by the thrill of the chase?

I hope there is nothing too dramatic to come in the final stages of the book.

I think this from chapter 11 illustrates the point we were making Ella's Gram.

“Now am I alone — all alone,’ he thought. ‘In all India is no one so alone as I! If I die today, who shall bring the news — and to whom? If I live and God is good, there will be a price upon my head, for I am a Son of the Charm — I, Kim.”

Marialyce wrote: "I think this from chapter 11 illustrates the point we were making Ella's Gram.

“Now am I alone — all alone,’ he thought. ‘In all India is no one so alone as I! If I die today, who shall bring the ..."

Yes, absolutely Marialyce. I obviously didn't take that part in as I should, so I will go back tonight!

I have also noticed quite often he will muse on who he is - along the lines of Kim, who is Kim .... which seems to me he isn't too sure of his identity at times. That's one reason I hope he gets to stay with the Lama who I think would help him know himself. Ah well, enough musing.

Yes, he does seem to look for a place in the world and his own knowledge of self. I wonder since he is an orphan, if that is the reason?

Marialyce wrote: "He is a typical young man is he not? They always seemed to be enticed by the thrill of the game and one can see that Kim readily and wholeheartedly wants to play the game. "

Clari and Marialyce, good observation. Yes, there is something in the late adolescent/young adult male brain which seems to steer toward danger and excitement. Which has, at least in the past, been a good thing for the human race as long as there were new continents to be explored and dangerous unknown places to be discovered.

What I find interesting in Kim is the combination of patience and action. He seems equally content and fulfilled sitting at his lama's feet for hours contemplating the way of the Wheel and clambering over the rooftops or skulking around keyholes.

Ella's Gran wrote: "I have also noticed quite often he will muse on who he is - along the lines of Kim, who is Kim .... which seems to me he isn't too sure of his identity at times. That's one reason I hope he gets to stay with the Lama who I think would help him know himself. Ah well, enough musing.
"

Nice observation. Yes, he is trying to establish who he is in a very crowded and confusing world. I agree with Marialyce that it's related to his orphanage -- he hasn't had a stable family to give him confidence as t who he is. I also think it's related to his being English but living primarily as an Indian, except while he's at school. He's a product of two very disparate cultures, neither wholly one nor wholly the other, very conscious of his Englishness while living a totally non-English life. Neither fish nor fowl.

Makes it hard for him to know just who he actually is, while obviously, in the passage Marialyce quoted (and elsewhere in the novel) he really wants to establish some identity and some belonging.

Everyman wrote: "He's a product of two very disparate cultures, neither wholly one nor wholly the other, very conscious of his Englishness while living a totally non-English life. Neither fish nor fowl.."

I thought Kim's parents were Irish?
It is interesting that for such a confident lad a couple of places he questions who Kim is. I read it as being because he is so fluid between his different identities but he is neither white nor Indian.

Clari wrote: "I thought Kim's parents were Irish?."

His father was, yes. We don't know his mother's nationality (just that she was nursemaid in a Colonel's family). But I think Kipling must have used the term English inclusively, and I'm not sure of the status of Ireland when Kim was written --maybe it was considered part of England (Trollope, for example, spent much time in Ireland as an official of the English post office).

In the very start of the novel, we read "There was some justification for Kim—he had kicked Lala Dinanath's boy off the trunnions—since the English held the Punjab and Kim was English."

And Father Victor and Bennett, after they discover his documents, say 'We cannot allow an English boy—Assuming that he is the son of a Mason, the sooner he goes to the Masonic Orphanage the better.'

So while you're perfectly correct about his Irish parenthood (at least on his father's side), it seems that Kim regarded himself as English, and so did those around him.

(And no, I don't have the book memorized -- thank goodness for the Gutenberg editions which make searching for and copying in passages wonderfully easy!)