Victorians! discussion

For discussion of these chapters

I enjoyed this novel as a very simple reading of a celebration of friendship.
It didn't feel much like a Victorian novel, especially a late Victorian novel where the heroes are often struggling and disillusioned.
There is obviously a more critical post-colonial deconstruction of the book which probably raises important questions about Kipling's presentation of an India under British/white rule.
I am happy that I was led to this novel by this group as it is one that I may never have got around to, I don't think Kipling is always ranked amongst the top English writers despite the honours paid to him while he lived.

I thought the novel was just ok. I did however, like it for the same reason as Clari mentioned which was the strong concept of friendship. It was a departure from the typical Victorian novels we have read, but oftentimes I felt a wee bit of boredom creating into my reading of it and did not feel spurred on to continue. I am sure though, that this novel was thrilling for many Victorians to read as it lent a mysterious and adventuresome aura to their lives. I also found it a bit different that there was absolutely no "romance" to he found in the book. Kim was at an age where the presence of women should have attracted him. Any thoughts as to why this piece was missing?

Marialyce wrote: "I also found it a bit different that there was absolutely no "romance" to he found in the book. Kim was at an age where the presence of women should have attracted him. Any thoughts as to why this piece was missing? "

Like you, Marialyce, I noticed the lack of women. I wondered if the woman in the village who is obviously interested in Kim might sway him, but his philosophy and the philosophy of the novel is I think summarised when Kim thinks: "How can a man follow the Way or the Great Game when he is so-always pestered by women?"

Prostitutes are mentioned, and Kim's ease around them, so it isn't as if the novel totally avoids any mention of sexuality as a purely children's novel would.

There are no real mother figures, Kim doesn't think twice about leaving the woman who has had care of him since he was a child and beginning his adventure on the road. The female who figures the most is the Kulu woman, who despite caring for the two main protagonists, I read as a comical figure who talks so much she disturbs the lama's great patience in meditation.

Interestingly, the women are often facilitators helping the men with their schemes, but at the centre of the novel is male friendship and a masculine world.

I'm glad a romance wasn't forced into the plot in contrast to the modern male-buddy kind of film where there's usually some sort of token female presence.

Did you find it too unrealistic that Kim was almost entirely lacking in the romantic side of his character?

Marialyce wrote: "I thought the novel was just ok. I did however, like it for the same reason as Clari mentioned which was the strong concept of friendship. It was a departure from the typical Victorian novels we ha..."

I definitly agree: I found this novel mostly boring. Not tough to read, but it didn't catch me, I'm afraid ...
And I also agree with Clari on the "woman vision" in this book: at the most they're "facilitators", it is a totally "masculine book"

Clari,, to answer your question, my answer would be a definite yes. While I understand that Kim is a masculine book, I did find the lack of any interest by Kim in any woman disconcerting. Given his age, it was very odd that there was not one bit of sexual attraction mentioned. In all the Victorian novels I have read it is definitely there in the story, albeit at times very hidden, but definitely there.

Did I feel it ruined the story? Again I would say yes. I realize that Kim was trying to find his religious way but, that being said this facet of life seemed to be ignored which to me seemed a bit unnatural.

Marialyce wrote: "Kim was at an age where the presence of women should have attracted him. Any thoughts as to why this piece was missing? "

That's a good question. I wonder whether it reflects the Victorian English reticence about sex (anecdotally, in an attribution sometimes made to Queen Victoria, maternal sex advice for women was supposed to be limited to "close your eyes and think of England). Probably apocryphal, but perhaps reflective of late Victorian attitudes, though equally probably things were much more active than we sometimes think). But anyhow, it may reflect the Victorian attitude toward sex. Or not. :)

Kipling didn't marry until he was 26, so maybe he didn't think that boys of Kim's age (when he was at a boys school in England) were, or should have been, interested in girls.

But you're right, it is notable that there are no young women at all prominent in the book.

Clari wrote: "I don't think Kipling is always ranked amongst the top English writers despite the honours paid to him while he lived. "

His reputation seems to ebb and flow. But I think he remains more popular in England than here, particularly some of his poetry, his Just So Stories, and his Jungle Book.

But his brand of imperialism and jingoism don't sit will with many modern readers. Which I think is a shame because he's a magnificent story teller.

To what extent do you think Kipling succeeded in showing maturity and growth in Kim?

Everyman wrote: "To what extent do you think Kipling succeeded in showing maturity and growth in Kim?"

That's an interesting question as I think from our discussion the general feeling is that there is not much maturing to Kim, he is the same at the end of the book as he is at the beginning.
I was surprised that wikipedia ranks 'Kim' as a picaresque novel which I associate with the century or so before the Victorians, but it fits in with the sense that there is no character development across Kim's adventures.

Everyman wrote: " I wonder whether it reflects the Victorian English reticence about sex"

I think the lack of sexual content reflects more Kiplings preference for this story, as his near contemporaries could fit a lot of tension into their works without needing to be explicit in a way that would offend the Victorian sensibility.

To what extent do you think Kipling succeeded in showing maturity and growth in Kim?

I, also, feel like Clari. I did not witness much maturing on Kim's part. He still was the same wander lusting boy he was at the start of the story. His life was one big quest, one big adventure which is fine in a teenager, but certainly lacks substance in a man. His character does not undergo any change either. He is someone who seems to roll with life rather than one who would set up change and make a difference in the life of those around him. In a way, I found Kim to be very self centered.

"I wonder whether it reflects the Victorian English reticence about sex"

It possibly could be quite reflective of the times, but I myself have always liked that implied and hidden sexuality found in Victorian novels. Kim almost seemed androgynous to me.

I think the key word is "quest" but I don't think this is a coming of age quest for Kim. I think Kim is our (the reader) guide, just as he is the Lama's guide, but for our purposes Kipling takes us on an exploratory adventure that reveals many levels of existence in India. Like peeling an onion, the heart of the story is the Wheel of Life, and the quest for the River of Healing.

I have only a few chapters left, but I love this book. Chapter 14 is rich with understanding. I love the Lama's take on his beating, how it sourced from his own distraction --

" '... anger, rage, and a lust to return evil. These wrought in my blood, woke tumult in my stomach, and dazzled my ears... had I been passionless, the evil blow would have done only bodily evil -- a scar, or a bruise -- which is illusion... In fighting that lust, my soul was torn and wrenched beyond a thousand blows... But the evil planted in me by that moment's carelessness works out to its end. Just is the Wheel, swerving not a hair! Learn the lesson, chela.' "

This is the same psychology we talk about when discussing mob violence, and its consequences. But even better is the lama's justification of earning merit because he saved the two travelers' lives by preventing the carriers from attacking them. Karma! :)

A few days ago TCM ran the 1950 movie "Kim" with Dean Stockwell and Errol Flynn. I haven't watched it yet, but I have it recorded. What a lovely synchronicity! I had never heard of the movie.

Janice George wrote: "I think the key word is "quest" but I don't think this is a coming of age quest for Kim. I think Kim is our (the reader) guide, just as he is the Lama's guide, but for our purposes Kipling takes u..."

I like that analysis. I might add to it that I think Kipling may also have been trying to give the English readership a view of an India that wasn't seen by the government officials sent out from English public schools at amazingly young ages to rule the country.

Marialyce wrote: " It possibly could be quite reflective of the times, but I myself have always liked that implied and hidden sexuality found in Victorian novels. Kim almost seemed androgynous to me. ..."

Did you all read the same novel I did?

I read in all sorts of sexual adventures between the lines -- told with "proper" Victorian reticence and innuendo! What does that say about my mind? Or reading experiences?

I became deeply engrossed in the book; read it in a few days; in my review, rated it five stars, which I seldom do. It took me into an early look at a part of the world that we all need to understand more thoroughly (much seems to be set in what is now Pakistan). The aphorisms, the humor, the religions bumping up against each other with considerable integrity, the stereotypical but believable characters, the self-searching, the mild telling of anecdotes of intrigue from of one of the most incredible power stories in history, the British rule of empire.

This story reminded me much of the modern day expedition of Rory Stewart that he chronicled in The Places in Between on his trek across Afghanistan. Another in the tradition of the intrepid Brit. Some of the f2f group with whom I discussed that book several years ago were astonished by the way Stewart handled cultural divides much as we are by Kim's actions as described by Kipling.

I expected something far less than what I found in this classic and probably would never have gotten Kim read without the push from this board. My thanks to whomever voted for it. And to those of you who have read and commented upon it.

I cannot say, unfortunately, that I enjoyed this book very much. I am not fond of Kipling's writing. I think it left much to be desired. I haven't tried any of his short stories yet, so maybe my feelings will change.

I tend to agree with Lily that there was love/sex interest on Kim's part. I thought there was something alluded to about a girl he was trying impress the first time that he left school, when he was getting made up for his disguise. And, there was another scene where he was wondering in or around a brothel. I don't have my notes with me or I could be a little clearer here. Did not anyone else recollect those parts?

Finally, the last four chapters bored me to death. There were too many events that the author never brought was to, we only learned about them afterwards. Think about it. The whole novel led up to the big climax of the lama finding this river. It was a let down for me that Kim was sleeping for a week, and that he, and consequently, the reader only finds out about the main event after it has already happened. This took all of the drama and suspense out of it. Kim finds out later. Kipling is like, "By the way, he found the river." I think if you are going to allude to an event for 14 chapters, at least, cover it as it happens.

Jonathan wrote: "I think if you are going to allude to an event for 14 chapters, at least, cover it as it happens. "

But wasn't that a very Eastern way to handle it?

I don't know, but even still it was disappointing that his guide was not with him, when he found it. Because of this, we miss out on the whole experience. How did he find the river? How did he know it? What was his reaction? Joy? Relief? Why did he almost drown? Was there a certain amount of time he needed to be baptised to be cleansed from his sins? There are a million questions left unanswered. I just read Shirley before this and was totally let down by that ending as well. It is like watching a movie and right at the high point, the credits start rolling, and then there is some text to explain the ending. So and so got married... They found the river... Describe the scenes! We have been waiting 400 pages for this. Don't leave us a newspaper clipping.

Jonathan wrote: "I don't know, but even still it was disappointing that his guide was not with him, when he found it. Because of this, we miss out on the whole experience. How did he find the river? How did he know..."

Smile! What is life but the mystery? I still can't believe that I was so enchanted by Kim. I totally expected my reactions to be much closer to those you are expressing, Jonathan.

That is quite odd, as I was rather expecting to be enchanted. I must say that I was impressed with the use of prophecies as a mechanism for foreshadowing. This was unique and the only time that I have ever seen an author use a relevant part of a story (What is more expected than for a holy man to prophesy?) to foreshow future events. The let down was that the lama often prophesied that his young guide would lead him to his river, when instead the wearied soul slept through the culmination of the adventure.

One more thing. Michelangelo, who took too damn long on the Sistine Chapel, said, "Art is never finished, only abandoned." Indeed. But, my problem with this book is that it was abandoned too early. And, I daresay, Kipling abandoned it, yet continued to write another 3 or 4 chapters. The sculptor and artist also remarked, "Trifles make perfection and perfection is no trifle." That's what was missing from the conclusion of this tale, Trifles: those little details which make it real and suck you in to an author's world.

Sometimes perfection is what is? (Yes, this is Easter morning.)

Happy Easter to all. The day Christians celebrate their own sins being cleansed underneath a river of the blood of an unblemished lamb.