Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

It's March 1st already!! I am excited to be launching the discussion for The Twelve Tribes of Hattie. Thank you Columbus for opportunity. You all know this was a Oprah Bookclub 2.0 pick. This book should provide us with a great discussion.  For me I am always interested in who will be reading with us and how everyone is doing locating a copy of the book.?

There are some great reading questions so take a look at them. I really enjoyed them and will include some. The Kindle version has Oprah notes. I would like to know if  people enjoyed those and if there is something from there you wish to comment on please do so.

I will be giving some background on the author. You also have an assignment. I would like for you to choose your favorite character and create an accronym using the letters of their name. If you are choosing Hattie. I would like to see you do one at the halfway point of the book and then again. Why? I think it will be fun to see fine perspective stays the same or changes. 

Be excited about the characters and themes which I think Ayana does a great job of writing. I find her to be a highly intelligent and delightful woman. 

 Also keep in mind a question that I still wrestle with. "Is this a story of the Great Migration? Why or why not? I hope we all learn, share, and most of all enjoy this book together.  Rebecca

I love your enthusiasm, Rebecca! I have the book and have read the first 3 chapters. Looking forward to the discussion!

Yes, interesting questions/thoughts to consider. I read the book a couple of months ago.

I looked at Oprah's notes after reading the book. It was a nice touch. I also underline passages and make notes (thought less than underlining). I remember at times that we had noted the same thoughts but not always.

I will have to think on who was my "favorite" character.

Thanks, Rebecca! I've got the book from the library and will be starting it sometime this week. Looking forward to the discussion!

i have read the book, and don't want to spoil it. let me know when the discussion begins.

rebecca, your suggested topics are great! i'm eager to include them in my thoughts.

I read the book a while back and honestly, I find it hard to find a favorite because all we got was a "snippet" so it wasn't much to endear me to the point of favorite. As the novel progressed, I could sympathize with them (as broken/wounded characters), but so many were introduced and that was the first and last we heard from them, hard to bond.

I'll think a little harder about the "favorite" and will post when I come to a conclusion.

I read this book in January and gave it mixed reviews. Ayana writes well, the first chapter is riveting. It's a series of stories that IMO didn't come together as a cohesive novel. Each chapter moves from character to character and skips around in time. Most of the narrators are siblings / Hattie's children but there is little interaction between them. I'm sure part of my disappointment came from high expectations based on Oprah's raves. I may re-read it with more realistic expectations and mindful that this is a debut novel.

I downloaded the Kindle edition but I turned off Oprah's comments and favorite passages after Chapter 1 in favor of reading an 'unmarked' copy.

I wanted this to be a story about the "Great Migration" and was looking for insight into those experiences from first and second generation viewpoints. Now I'm reading The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration.

Wow, really great questions & thoughts to consider, Rebecca! I am eager to tackle the assignment!! I've gotten the book from the library and look forward to getting into it. I am fairly new to this group and definitely new to the discussions. I've been able to read a few of our group's other books (though not always reading the titles at the same time the group was reading them) and I've enjoyed looking back on former discussions. This time I am hoping I can keep up and join in on this month's book and active discussions. Either way...I'll enjoy another great read and the various comments and input from other readers.

Hi Rebecca! I just started reading the book, and so far, Hattie's personality is interesting for a 15-year old.

You are kind Mina. Thank you. It's a pretty fast read I would love suggestions on now to break it up? I have thought about 12 threads. would love one for each character. I think each one deserves there own comments but that might be a bit much. And maybe one for reading questions?

Awsome and great responses everyone.

Knita Welcome, you will love this group. William, jo,Mina, and Columbus do such a great
job here and choose great books. They work hard and I just appreciate and admire them.

hi rebecca. i read half the book and i already like Six a lot. it's a hard to think of an acronym for six cuz his name is so short. i'll have to stop reading for a bit bc i have to read another book, but i'll be back soon. it would be good to discuss chapter by chapter, i think.

p.s. i do nothing. william, mina and columbus do all the work. for realz.

p.s. i love that we have a 15-year-old in this discussion. looking forward to your p.o.v. folasade!

I will be reading along and just bought the book for the Kindle. I was waiting for a library version but I was number 25 on the list.

I loved the book and think the author can tell an amazing story. Can't wait to see what she writes about next. As varied as Hattie's childrens' stories were, The Twelve Tribes is thus multiple stories based on one family told beautifully. It does not speak for the majority of black folks migration to the North. I'm just saying...

I'm starting this book today. I am open to however you break it up. If twelve threads seems like too much, you could ask some questions about similarities/differences between characters or common themes. Also noticed there were 20 reading questions so you might want to pick a few of the ones you like rather than trying them all!

Welcome, Kanita! This is my second book discussion in this group so I can relate as a newbie. As I'm sure you've seen it's a friendly and supportive group and from my experience you can always contribute as much or as little to the discussion as you're comfortable with.

Loved this clip and daring Ayana talk about her books beginnings. Hope you all enjoy.

http://www.oprah.com/own-super-soul-s...

Ayana and the Twelve Tribes of Hattie articles
http://www.washingtonpost.com/enterta...-
twelve-tribes-of-hattie-by-ayana-mathis/2012/12/11/f343018e-40b0-11e2-
a2d9-822f58ac9fd5_story_1.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/boo...

How does everyone feel about discussing chapters 1-4 by Friday?

jo wrote: "hi rebecca. i read half the book and i already like Six a lot. it's a hard to think of an acronym for six cuz his name is so short. i'll have to stop reading for a bit bc i have to read another boo..."

jo check out my question answered by Ayana as well as others who don't mind a spoiler on "Six. I was thrilled she answered mine. Feel free to click on others it gives a description so if your not sure you want to view it yet then you can go back later.

http://vyou.com/mobile/profile/user_i...

Cool, thanks for the links!

1-4 by Friday is fast by I should be there. I am on Chapter Two. Without giving away any spoilers, I will say that Chapter One was too harrowing as a father of two young children. I needed more time to recover. Instead I am hurled 23 years ahead into Floyd's life. I'm not liking him so much so far, although I am curious about his music and his relationship with Hattie.

Rebecca wrote: "jo wrote: "hi rebecca. i read half the book and i already like Six a lot. it's a hard to think of an acronym for six cuz his name is so short. i'll have to stop reading for a bit bc i have to read ..."

which one is your question, rebecca? this is such a cool site! how did you find it?

Wow. I have just started Philadelphia and Jubilee ... And I am already heartbroken and sucked in. I feel moved, grief-stricken. Damn. Now THIS is a writer

jo wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "jo wrote: "hi rebecca. i read half the book and i already like Six a lot. it's a hard to think of an acronym for six cuz his name is so short. i'll have to stop reading for a bit b..."

I am sorry jo, The James Baldwin one? It must have been off of Oprah website or gooreads but i cant recall for sure. I wondered if you can still ask a question? Maybe you can try it.

Michael harrowing is the perfect word to describe Phil and Jubilee. I felt the same. The opening chaper was very powerful. I will be curious to know if you think she maintains the momentum till the end.

Hi like some of the above post. I also just finished chapter one and it was so sad. It was so sad and horrific, for a sixteen year old to go through that and act so bravely like she did is just...sad.

Hmm, I guess I'm in the minority here. I couldn't get into Chapter One. Matter of fact, it made me put the book down for a while. Glad I picked it back up again because I enjoyed the rest of the book. Chapter One did allow me to understand some of Hattie's later behavior--I just didn't enjoy it as much as some of the other chapters. I think, perhaps, I will go back and read it (CH. 1) again. :-)

well lori, perhaps both of us are in the minority. i, however, read the entire book, and found it to be only "ok."

i thought that it was disjointed, i guess because it was, essentially, a series of short stories. but the disturbing thing was none of the stories had a culmination ... any finality, and i found myself expecting the stories to pick up again later in the novel. i didn't "get" that each chapters was about each of her kids until about three kids in.

Another thing: i expected there to be a stronger religious correlation between her stories and the Bible (12 tribes), and there was none. tho hattie's cynicism was made more evident with her scant references to the Bible/Scripture/religion.

in all, i found it depressing, tho i was able to understand and relate to some of her and her characters' struggles -- mainly hers, as i surmised that her being distant as a mom, was largely couch in her general resentment.

the writing was fine, and held my attention throughout (as i said earlier because i would expect more), but i wasn't sad when i finished the book.

Okay, I am liking Floyd a little better now that I understand him, although he is definitely acting out in unhealthy ways. Lafayette is an interesting character but I'm having trouble not imagining Lafayette from the True Blood series if anyone knows what I am talking about. Not the same person although perhaps they share the "worldliness" Floyd is talking about. The loneliness Floyd feels after the clearing was the first time I understood how not just shame but denial of what makes you happy causes so much depression and suicide in our society(ies).

I definitely find the writing to be disjointed, timelines/tense/jumps in context, etc. but I have no trouble establishing empathy with her characters. She definitely writes poetically but also efficiently.

Rebecca wrote: "jo wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "jo wrote: "hi rebecca. i read half the book and i already like Six a lot. it's a hard to think of an acronym for six cuz his name is so short. i'll have to stop reading ..."

awesome question and great answer. thank you!

I forgot to mention earlier that the first chapter is in 1925 which is possibly the time period of Invisible Man. So there is some month-to-month reading continuity for our group!

The end of Chapter Two: The sun rose in an angry orange ball. Could be another earth, another earth just like this one all up in flames.

I thought that was a very powerful image, and very subtle, I almost missed it. She didn't say it outright, but in my mind it didn't seem Floyd was thinking of the planet, but of the people, burning in anguish.

Am I a fool to hope Chapter Three will be upbeat?

yes. :D

Six: Well, at least it wasn't depressing! At least not for me. I was dismayed that Six didn't have more guidance for his problems, it felt like he was left to survive Lord of the Flies style, although maybe that is just childhood. His solution is interesting, and possibly empowering, although I think he will always feel unloved so long as he is trying to be what other people want him to be.

Rebecca, for our favorite characters, can it be anyone or were you thinking of Hattie's family only?

Any character. Michael you have some great insight and I am enjoying you comments a lot.

Mina how are you doing?

Jo I am glad you enjoyed the clip. I am a big fan of Baldwin.

I will plan on posting reading questions on Sunday for chapter 1-3. I think most are there.

Donna I can see your point and it first felt that way to me in the beginning. For me it all seemed to fit together at the end. I think the themes themselves not necessarily the characters.

I have read chapters 1-4 so far (print copy, not the Kindle version), and am partway into chapter 5. Interesting questions about whether it is a novel about the Great Migration or not - I would agree with some other comments I have seen (here and I think on the goodreads page for this book), that it is primarily a novel about a particular family, set within the context of the Great Migration.

The narrative structure (each section of the book focusing on a different member of the family; time shifts backwards and forwards) reminds me of The Turk and My Mother by Mary Helen Stefaniak, also a graduate of the Iowa Writer's Workshop. Stefaniak referred to her book as a 'braided narrative', and that's how the 'Twelve Tribes' strikes me so far - the strands in the separate chapters braid together as a whole (it's just that it's not a linear progression), and what you learn as you progress in the book sometimes gives more insight to what you've read in the previous strands.
(I have to confess that I've peeked ahead to the end of the book - a bad(?) habit of mine that I sometimes indulge.)

"The Warmth of Other Suns" has been on my tbr list since about the time that I joined goodreads (late in 2010), and I hope to read it sometime this year.

Good Morning Everyone. Feel free to comment and discuss these questions and well as anything from chapters 1-3 or 4.

In the book's first chapter, Hattie suffers a terrible double tragedy: her infant twins fall ill and die. How do you think this event changes the course of Hattie's life/the course of the novel?

In the second chapter ("Floyd"), the narrative moves up twenty-three years, to 1948, and focus shifts to Hattie's oldest surviving son. Discuss how the novel's structure, i.e., ten chapters, each focused on a different character and time period, affects the reading experience.

Do you think Floyd will come out as a gay man after the scene with Lafayette on page 33, or do you think his temperament and experience, and the times, will prevent this? Or will he hang himself "like Judas"?

What do you think the author intended by making Six's true relationship to God/preaching so ambiguous? Is he a religious person, or does he just like the power his preaching has over others?

Hattie was determined to keep looking forward after arriving in Philadelphia from Georgia. But within two short years of arriving and being only 16, her mother has passed, her two sisters are back in Ga, she has married and has birthed twins which die in her arms. As the twins are an extension of her and her dreams (as indicated by her reasoning for the names) - their death is another blow to her dreams. While the deaths are terrible event, it just seemed to me for a 16 yr old without a support system (she really does not know her husband)that this was the straw that brought the camel's back.

Sue wrote: "Stefaniak referred to her book as a 'braided narrative', and that's how the 'Twelve Tribes' strikes me so far - the strands in the separate chapters braid together as a whole (it's just that it's not a linear progression), and what you learn as you progress in the book sometimes gives more insight to what you've read in the previous strands...."

I like the term "braided narrative" for a book like this one. I haven't heard the term before.

The chapter about Six is my favorite so far. I think that Six is trying to figure out for himself whether or not he is a healer. His ambiguity seemed honest to me - far more honest that the sad lot of preachers who were with him.

I agree it seemed to shatter her dreams, and perhaps even her spirit. Floyd describes he and Cassie sitting in Hattie's lap and plaiting her hair when they were growing up as if she were a living doll. And Six says that she cried in the ambulance when he was burned but he had never seen her cry before or since. It sounded like she checked out on the emotional connections and just went through the motions after the twins died. It seemed interesting that she had so many children if she could no longer invest in them. Like that was the only thing that defined her any more.

I'm not sure which scene page 33 refers to, since I am reading an ebook, but I think Floyd's experience in the whole chapter reinforced his fears of coming out because of how they treated Lafayette and how they looked at Floyd when he was guilty by association. He has an unfortunate combination of guilt from wanting to do the right thing and shame from being told his whole life that what he wants to do is wrong. I think he will continue to self-destruct and cycle between making promises he can't keep and hating himself for not being braver. I was honestly surprised to see him appear seemingly intact for a cameo in chapter 4, which is two years later.

Oh, and thanks for your kind words, Rebecca. I try!

Michael wrote: " I think Floyd's experience in the whole chapter reinforced his fears of coming out because of how they treated Lafayette and how they looked at Floyd when he was guilty by association. He has an unfortunate combination of guilt from wanting to do the right thing and shame from being told his whole life that what he wants to do is wrong. I think he will continue to self-destruct and cycle between making promises he can't keep and hating himself for not being braver..."

I agree, sadly enough.

Wilhelmina wrote: "Sue wrote: "Stefaniak referred to her book as a 'braided narrative', and that's how the 'Twelve Tribes' strikes me so far - the strands in the separate chapters braid together as a whole (it's just..."

Oh, yes...the braided narrative...that description is so apropos for this novel! I totally agree Sue & Mina. I've not read a book written in this format (at least I don't recall) and it is proving to be very interesting thus far, drawing me into the lives of each character introduced to contemplate their lives and relationships with each other. Though I may not have described "the braided narrative" as accurately as Sue's quote does above, I think I was ever so slightly prepared for the novel's uniqueness and didn't really realize it...meaning...I've read/heard so much commentary about the book being divided into chapters serving as "short stories" about Hattie's children that while it still held my interest, I do wonder what my initial reaction might have been to reading the "separate stories" and not having any advance knowledge of the book's style, format, etc. No worries though. It's not throwing me off in any way. I rather appreciate it and enjoy it!

Favorite Chapters & Characters So Far:
Well, Chapter 1 left me heavy, speechless. And I guess that's all I have to say about that, mainly because I am not real big on "sad". Needless to say, Chapter 1 can move you. I've only completed 3 chapters. I'm just starting Chapter 4 and my favorite chapter/character so far is Chapter 3, the one about "Six". His uncertainties and questions are honest and real and I think maybe his overall intentions to help others are genuine as well. He is also presented as wise perhaps beyond his years or beyond what "the ministers" give him credit when, toward the end of Chapter 3, a paragraph begins... "I shouldn't be here...a woman in the house needs help, real help. But who can counsel her? The ministers were jealous and squabbling, no closer to God then Six..." and concludes "...he wanted to be what she though he was..." In the few pages of Chapter 3 where we've been introduced to Six, I come away with the feeling that, even thought he is young and youthful in age and his experiences, Six is struggling with several different (and common) issues ranging from lack of acceptance, lack of respect even validation and a need to please (not so much about having power) to possibly not being seen as even a near equal...all this originating from his lack of identity, security, confidence and contentment in who he is. Funny, my comment about Six is pretty broad, far-reaching and speculative, I know. But, given Hattie's history and her family's circumstances, as we continue reading, this may be a similar core issue/struggle theme in other character siblings we meet!

Great writing by this author. She's got my attention and I am eager to read on...

Rebecca,
Thank you for the welcome! I really do enjoy following this group and reading the great books selections. This is my first "input", but, whether one participates in the discussions or not the active commentary helps add to the reading experience and I enjoy it!

Michael,
Thank you so much for you warm welcome too! (my fellow newbie!) Yes, friendly and supportive is exactly how I would describe this group! : ) Thank you for the encouragement to participate in discussions casually at my leisure and at my own pace. That's how I like to read my books! Though I may need to pick-up my pace as my "to-read" list is ever growing now after joining goodreads! : )

I too like the term - braided narrative for the format of this book.
I did not mind that it was not linear.
The author writes very well - I thought it was the writing that elevated the story beyond ordinary for me and kept me reading.
But after reading the book I was a little worn down because of the portrayal of the characters.

the book says explicitly that the death of the twins broke hattie's husband... can't remember his name. i think he's an important character. and when six gets burned hattie says something like "not another one." the whole family is marked by these deaths, and that's why they never moved, never owned a house, lived hand to mouth, and maybe, as michael says, hattie went through the motions of raising her other kids (not sure about this, though; both parents are very very nice to six when he beats the other boy).

i find it touching how loving the father is toward the kids, and how there is absolutely no physical violence in the family. we are so used to see dysfunctional and poor families portrayed as engaging in domestic violence; but this is a household in which people don't hit each other.

I'm definitely torn about both August and Hattie, especially after your recent comments, jo.

After your description of August as "loving", I had to go back and reread Chapter 4. I see some of what you are talking about in the way he thinks of his kids, how he is good at holding babies, and how he lets Bell cry it out with him. I think I glossed over those scenes because the opening sentence about August in Chapter 4 said "The children weren't just scared because Hattie was gone but because they were left alone with August." This seemed to set up a tone of fear instead of a tone of love for the scenes that followed, even though he had never used violence. I'm wondering if the author was instead implying that they thought of August as irresponsible, and they were afraid their needs wouldn't be met if it was all up to him.

I still have problems with August, however, because of his absence/negligence. He brags about not being one of those fathers who has never seen his kids, but his habits of womanizing and partying have made him more absent than present. Six can't remember holding August's hand when growing up, felt August didn't teach him things fathers are supposed to teach, and notes that August's presence in his life was "peripheral at best". August admits the children treat him "like a dopey uncle who came around to play with them but was of no real consequence." When he justifies his treatment of Hattie, he rationalizes to himself that he gives her half of his earnings, but it seems clear from the state of food/clothing that Hattie's half is also supposed to provide for the 10 children! He may feel the emotions of love, but I don't see evidence that he translates that love into the presence and commitment the children need.

Hattie is something of a contradiction to me, too. I see what you are saying, jo, about her being present during Six's accident and in determining his punishment for his beating of Avery. Perhaps the emotional distance Floyd describes in his youth was only for a period of years at the beginning, and the effects of time and her many other children reawakened her. And yet, she isn't really able to say goodbye to Six, just hurriedly places the Bible in his lap. And Lawrence talks about how she holds Ruthie as if she is anybody's baby, that she may not have any more love to give. It seems to imply she is still afraid to have an emotional attachment to her children, even though she may be able to see to their needs in a thoughtful and pragmatic way against extraordinary odds.

find it touching how loving the father is toward the kids, and how there is absolutely no physical violence in the family. we are so used to see dysfunctional and poor families portrayed as engaging in domestic violence; but this is a household in which people don't hit each other.


That is a observation I hadnt seen or picked up on jo, and it is so true about doemestic violence we rarely see the instances where there is not.

You guys are so impressive and thoughtful in your comments. Keep it coming.

Chapter 5: Can someone help me with the timeline here? It's October of 1954 and Ella is 6 months old. In the flashback, Hattie says it had been 5 years since she held a baby in her arms when she misses her period. So that was around August of 1953, which implies her last child, Ruthie, was born no later than August of 1948. But that would make Ruthie at least 2 years and 5 months old during the story of 1951. Did anyone think she was that old in that story? She is still breastfeeding and sleeping in a Moses basket. Am I doing my math right? Maybe Hattie is just rounding when she says it's been 5 years? I know it's a minor thing, but I am trying to make a family tree with birth years so I can picture everything, and stuff like this is throwing me off! Does anyone know if she ever says specifically when Ruthie was born?

Oh, and on another note: 31 years of babies. Wow.

Michael wrote: "I'm definitely torn about both August and Hattie, especially after your recent comments, jo.

After your description of August as "loving", I had to go back and reread Chapter 4. I see some of wha..."

i wish i were able to quote chapter and verse, but it seems clear to me that both hattie and august keep a profound emotional distance from their children because of the trauma of the twins' death. i think it comes up repeatedly. i really wish i could go back and find the passages. maybe tomorrow, if i have time.

when hattie leaves [sorry, another name block] and goes back home on the train with ruthie, part of it is that [name] is less present and reliable than she thought, but part of it, it seems to me, is that she has to be with her babies.

i'm embarrassed by the vagueness of this comment. sorry. i have the book here but not the time to go find the references (or the names!) and be more precise. i have read only the first 4 chapters and then two books in between. i'll try to do better when i finish the book i'm currently reading.

jo wrote: "i wish i were able to quote chapter and verse, but it seems clear to me that both hattie and august keep a profound emotional distance from their children because of the trauma of the twins' death"

I'm totally with you there, and I guess what I was focusing on was the shortfalls they both have as parents because of that trauma, and their subsequent disconnection. Your observation of August as loving made me reassess and see that they both have strengths, too. August is tender and playful with the children, and Hattie is extraordinary at seeing to their children's needs. And I agree, she is not totally disconnected from her children, but it is unclear to me if it is her strained emotional connection to them that drives her devotion, or her sense of pride at taking care of things. When she exclaims "What am I doing here without my children!" when she is with Lawrence, it seems to me she is judging herself as a mother, not necessarily missing her children. But I can see that being interpreted many ways, and we are not often given direct knowledge of how she feels about her children (except when they are babies) only what actions she takes.

As far as quoting chapter and verse, that is obviously not always possible, so don't sweat it. I confess it has gotten a lot easier for me now that I read so many electronic books. I love paper books, but being able to search for names or words from a scene on my Nook and find it instantly, has changed my life! (It's also why I remember so many names since I find myself searching for them a lot...)

That is sounding familiar jo. I reread chapter 1 and there is very little emotion in the caring of Philidelphia and Jubliee. It seems to be a physically driven save and more of a fight or flight response to me. Michael I agree we are unclear as to her feelings about her children.

The fact that August is preparing poultice's and attending to the furnace say a lot to me about him. August is a father with presence.

I will look too for the verses.

Michael I think you will see Hattie's " pride" come up again. At 15 she says she could manage it she thought only Atlanta on a larger scale maybe an indication too.

I am reading Floyd again and it just leaves me baffled. I didn't see it coming or a connection of the parade with the encounter between he and Lafayette till I reread.

Are people ready to go on? The next grouping would be a lot so maybe we group Ruthie and Ella?

What you think when August says Hattie "walks like a train coming"?

Rebecca wrote: "What you think when August says Hattie "walks like a train coming"?"

where is that, rebecca?

At the start of Six. My hardback it is on page 39.

Still thinking about your "Favorite Character" challenge as we move forward,Rebecca. These characters are very human, but not very endearing!