Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

Hi,

I am doing research for an article about self-published sci-fi/fantasy books.

I am really interested about what you guys have to say about self-published books and I'd really appreciate your help :)

I simply want to know what are your views on self-published sci-fi/fantasy? Do you seek or avoid self-published books?

I read some, but find that most don't have decent editing. I will read them, some especially if the author asks me to, gives me the book for free, & it looks interesting. Even so, I find I can't finish about half of those. I just tell the author privately about it & why. I don't publicly rate them unless I can give them a 4 or 5.

I almost never look at the publisher when considering the book to buy. As a corollary to that, I never specifically seek out a book by Baen or Tor; nor do I ever specifically go looking for a self-published book.

Of the hundred or so sci-fi/fantasy books I'll read for the first time this year, the majority will be by authors I'm already familiar with (often continuing the series I'm already familiar with.) Others will be selected based on media coverage: showing up on nomination lists for the Hugo, Nebula, Locus, BSFA, etc. or those that have appeared with favorable reviews in sci-fi or fantasy magazines or online websites. (I daresay an article in Slate this week will sell quite a few copies of Wool.) And a few will come with strong recommendations from friends. Just from that, I'll already want to read more books than I have time to read.

So, I think what the independent author really needs to ask is not "do sci-fi fans read independently published books?", But rather, "how do I bring my book to the attention of fandoms opinion makers so people will consider reading it?"

Jim wrote: "I read some, but find that most don't have decent editing. I will read them, some especially if the author asks me to, gives me the book for free, & it looks interesting. Even so, I find I can't ..."

Hi Jim, would you like to read mine? :) I would like to accept the challenge of keeping you interested until the end! :)

Thank you so much for your interesting responses :) I have only just started reading self-published books, just to see if and how they vary from professionally published books. But the publisher was never a thing I would consider in my choice of books before this self-publishing boom we seem to be having.

Thanks again,
Laura

Just FYI, but I started reading Dylan's books & liked them.

I read a lot of self-pubbed stuff via sites like Wattpad. Some of it is superb, some of it not so good. In some ways I think the distinction is more down to author than whether it's self-pubbed or published by one of the reconised publishing companies. If you find an author you like, you tend to continue reading their stuff.

Lasymonds wrote: "Hi,

I am doing research for an article about self-published sci-fi/fantasy books.

I am really interested about what you guys have to say about self-published books and I'd really appreciate your ..."

I have been a writer all my life (I am 59) and despite that could not find a publisher who would take on my novel...as despite a career as a journalist, published game designer (my 16th is coming out in April) and historian (two books, years ago), they did not want an "inexperienced, unknown" novelist. So I self-published my novel, Princess Ryan's Star Marines, through CreateSpace.

Made me feel good - but for a price which I have yet to recoup - which is hard to swallow when you are used to having people pay YOU to write.

I also review self-published books for Foreword Clarion...over 200 in the last two years. Such a boulevard of broken dreams....

I still write, still long to be read, still need to tell stories...but some days, well, some days....

I believe that many indie published books would do just as well as traditionally published books if the author was willing to stand behind his/her creation like a traditional publisher would. I.e. Pay for expensive editing (possibly up to $6000 dollars for copy editing and substantive editing).

Then there are costs bringing the book to market.. cover costs, formatting, etc. If you want a trade paperback (still 95% of the market), you won't be able to get it reasonably priced at book stores using POD services. As great as Print on Demand is, it results in paperbacks that are often twice as expensive as mass market trade paperbacks. Good luck penetrating that market on your own.

Traditional publishers also are able to get the book through certain distribution channels that you might have problems with as an indie outsider. For example, I'm no expert, but how does one even go about getting Barnes and Noble to stock your POD book? Then there are advertising costs and other efforts you need to get the book "noticed."

Most of the above applies to ebooks too, but the one advantage indie authors have over traditional publishers here is that indie authors can compete on price. My fantasy book, which is 500 plus pages, can sell for $2.99, whereas comparable traditionally published books sell for $8.99. The profit margin to the author is around the same.

Finally, traditionally published books, be it in the ebook arena or paperback realm seem to have less difficulty with what I call "visibility" They just seem to "appear" on Amazon or elsewhere so that I know about them. I'm not sure if this is a result of advertising, marketing methods, or something else. Regardless, most independent kindle books are just invisible out there. LOL. Maybe there are just so many of them or maybe most are not that good and never gain momentum or word of mouth?

I have seen a handful of independent kindle books rise to the top of the rankings (Wool being one of them) and it's great that at least in those instances, the cream does seem to rise to the top. Still, I can't help but think that there are a lot of independent ebooks out there that are not doing that well, but that WOULD do phenomenal if a publisher picked them up.

That's just my two cents...

i was able to get it professionally edited by createspace for a decent rate - and i was lucky enough to get in on a special promotion deal they had, plus with my son doing the cover art and cover layout (he graduated from art school) i saved more...

...but advertising is not cheap....and I am not sure what kind of advertising is going to be effective. I tried social media, just found out about good reads this week, but as i lost my job of 32 years the same month the book came out do not have money to spare for advertising...yeah, timing....

Adam wrote: "I believe that many indie published books would do just as well as traditionally published books if the author was willing to stand behind his/her creation like a traditional publisher would. I.e...."

I think the visibility mechanism is pretty clear here: if Tor, Baen, Balentine, or another established publisher releases a book, it means it was selected by editors who know science fiction/fantasy, understand what the readers like, and believe in the work enough to invest in it. They've filtered out a lot of the dross from the slush pile.

If you're a reviewer, when a publisher you know sends you a book, you're more likely to give it a shot than if it arrives by e-mail from someone you never heard of. Retailers have the same bias, since they have no wish to showcase inferior works at the front of the store.

Yes, everyone's heard tales of best-selling books that were initially rejected by major publishers (I think Harry Potter is often cited). And there are couple of popular independently published books such as Wool that have gotten some good sales and critical attention. But on the whole, independently published books are flooding the market faster than the established review & recommendation infrastructure can sift through them. It hasn't caught up with the new market.


Adam wrote: "If you want a trade paperback (still 95% of the market)...."

I'm pretty sure I read e-books are now 25% of the overall US book sales (in dollars). Or where you referring to just printed books?

G33z3r wrote: "
If you're a reviewer, when a publisher you know sends you a book, you're more likely to give it a shot than if it arrives by e-mail from someone you never heard of. Retailers have the same bias, since they have no wish to showcase inferior works at the front of the store...."

Books from indies aren't even eligible for the standard review process from many of the big reviewers, like Kirkus. Kirkus has a process by which indies can *pay* hundreds of dollars for a review, but they can't even submit their books through the standard unpaid review channel. As it stands, only around a quarter of the trad published books submitted to them get selected for a review.

Booksellers usually use catalogs from distributors such as Ingram to find titles they'd like to order, and they only order books that are 1) returnable and 2)have a 45-55% wholesale discount, which doesn't describe most indie paperbacks.

Issues regarding the giant slush pile from hell aside, there are structural aspects to the book industry that many people are not aware of that throw up additional barriers for indie books and authors who wish to get reviews and bookstore placement.

Well, props to you Geezer for pointing out the rise in percentage sales of ebooks. I remember in 2011 when they only made up 7.3% of sales. In 2012, they were indeed closer to 20.2%, which is great news, especially for independent authors like myself.

I am with J.D. in terms of the implausibility of getting a printed version of one's indie book on store shelves. I suspected there were barriers of that nature.

As for visibility for ebooks, it's just tough to get seen. Not sure what advertising would even consist of. Goodreads has been pretty good!

J.D. wrote: "G33z3r wrote: "Books from indies aren't even eligible for the standard review process from many of the big reviewers, like Kirkus. Kirkus has a process by which indies can *pay* hundreds of dollars for a review, but they can't even submit their books through the standard unpaid review channel..."

I guess that's sort of "earnest money", a way of demonstrating that the author is serious. Otherwise, if the only cost of getting considered for review was a stamp, Kirkus would probably drowned in submissions.

It's probable, given the explosion of independent publishing (especially in e-books) that some mechanism will evolve to sort things out for ordinary readers. Probably some sort of crowd sourcing. I'm sure Goodreads hopes to be a big part of that.

G33z3r wrote: "
I guess that's sort of "earnest money", a way of demonstrating that the author is serious. Otherwise, if the only cost of getting considered for review was a stamp, Kirkus would probably drowned in submissions...."

I'd guess that it has a number of functions: it does cut the number of submissions down to a more manageable level, and, more immediately, it pay the reviewers' salaries to review all of these books. It also creates an additional revenue stream for Kirkus. Indies who get reviews are encouraged to pay Kirkus thousands of dollars to have their reviews included in Kirkus' publications and on the website.

I wouldn't think Kurkis would be that influential in the SF/F genre. I check the Kirkus website every now and then, but it's pretty rare that they suggest something new and exciting. (They seem to like established authors.)

If the issue is getting independently published books placed in traditional bookstores, Kristine Kathryn Rusch's blog this week talks about the creation of Ella Distribution as a (possible) common distributor for independent book publishers. (It's still in "Beta".)

(Aside: The situation strikes me as similar to the comic book industry in the 60's/70's, when independent artists, e.g. R. Crumb, couldn't get their works on newsstands through the usual magazine distributors due to problems with the Comics Code. That resulted in a whole new bunch of specialty distributors and retailers.)

I suppose it's still an open question whether physical book printing will be important next decade. Just how much market share will e-books gain before their growth flattens out? And how many physical bookstores will survive both e-books and Internet retailing?

G33z3r wrote: "I wouldn't think Kurkis would be that influential in the SF/F genre. ..."

I was only using them as one example of the barriers indie authors in general face in trying to market and distribute their books through the same channels used by traditional publishing. SF/F, far more than many other genres, has other mechanisms for book discovery. An author writing "contemporary literary fiction" would be in a much rougher position.

There are a lot of new businesses springing up to try to serve (or cash in on) the wave of indie publishing. Some of them are brilliant and marvelous, some are predatory, and some are well-intentioned, but ill-conceived.

I think the only thing we can be sure of is that at the moment, no one really knows what the publishing industry will look like ten years from now, or possibly even five years from now. We do know that right now, it is possible for independent authors to be successful in SF/F, despite the very real barriers in place, if they write good stories and they figure out who their readers are and how to let them know about their books.

The growth of indie publishing has also made exposure that much harder to get. Marketing is absolutely critical, and if you don't know what you are doing (like me, I have no clue how to market effectively) you end up wasting a lot of time and energy.

For example having thousands of twitter followers... most of which are other indie writers trying to sell me their book.

Still, from what I've read, heard, and spoken with other writers about... the single most important factor in selling a first novel is to finish and publish a second.

This thread was interesting, so I'll pull out the shock paddles and see if I can get it twitching again. I'm early in the indie process, but I've noticed a few things about both traditional publishing and indie.

1. It looks like the agents are watching what's selling in indie rather than taking any risks. That climate is currently skewed towards dystopias and negative futures, so people like Arthur Clarke and Asimov probably would slip through the cracks today. That scares the hell out of me on several levels.

2. Having went indie, I've noticed that despite what they claim, Amazon is inherently against indie authors. They'll give good lip service, but actually work against you as far as promotion within Amazon.

3. The unedited books hurt the market. I think we'll eventually see Amazon et al require professional editing to thin the crop.

I agree with most of the comments made here. Good quality work (compelling cover and blurb, well-told story and thoroughly edited manuscript) are the essential, but not the only, ingredients to a successful book.

I've found it also takes some luck. That's the one element you can't "work." Or maybe you can, but I haven't found the way to force luck to happen. Yet.

Beyond that, the social aspects are useful, too. Once people get to know you and your work, it's easier to convince them to read and maybe even buy your books. Not instantaneous, but easier.

every one talks about indy books having poor edits....i have e-books from 'name' authors, from big name publishers with typos so bad you can hardly read them...and yes, i PAID MONEY for them...some are returned for refund, some keep because paper copies are not to be found (out of print)

Spooky, you stole my rant! The Star Trek novels of the 90s are why I'll never pay to edit or proof my stuff. They were horrible. I know I can do better. Yet, somehow they sold really well. The majority of readers must want good stories.

I'm not sure if it's valid or not, but one does come across the editing issue quite often in Amazon reviews and places like Goodreads. Readers seem to biased against indie because of it.

That's not to say there aren't badly edited print books, I've seen grammatical errors that would cause a stroke in an English teacher in books.

Having had my book edited though, I'd have to say it's surprising and well worth it to see what a decent copy editor can do. I'm not sure I'd want to go it alone having been through it.

i will be honest, the typos have to be pretty dang bad for me to spot them...i read fine, but spelling, cant spell a lick...i gave up trying to improve my spelling years ago...so when i come across a e-book i can spot typos on every page, it gripes me to no end

i DO have a sugesstion for all you indy SF and Fantasy authors...if you want some cheap edits, join N3F....thats the National Fantasy Fan Federation...pulg that into google, you will find their web site. dues are like $25 a year. they do lots of stuff, and have a group that reads, comments on, ect. any stories you send (IF you are a N3F member)...and they are ALWAYS complaing they have tons of readers, not enough to read.

btw if you join N3F, tell them Spooky1947 sent you

Alot of good points have been made. I believe that self pubbing is a change in the publishing and entertainment industry that's here to stay. It opens up more options for readers who are happy to get away from the cookie-cutter type books previously available, not to mention lots more stuff to read. For readers who wish to have a good reading experience, ie without errors, then usually the reviews posted usually indicate the quality of the work. But as an indie writer myself I just might be biased towards the entire thing.

M.M. wrote: " It opens up more options for readers who are happy to get away from the cookie-cutter type books previously available,...."

I agree with your other points, MM, but I don't buy that for a moment. The mainstream science fiction and fantasy publishing business isn't just a "cookie-cutter". If those big publishers keep an eye on what's selling, they are also keeping one eye open for "the next big thing". And if anything, self-publishing is even more derivative, flooded with authors trying to mimic their favorites with urban fantasy heroines with werewolf boyfriends and dystopian futures were only teenagers have any brains, wanting to be just like JRRT or RAH.

Self-publishing is just about authors finding an alternate path to getting published and making money. As a byproduct, it might just entertain a few readers along the way.

I've nearly finished M.M. book and have really enjoyed it. I'll definitely be reading the sequel straight away. Is it a self published book? Since getting my kindle I've read quite a lot of these books, and I think it's great.so much work getting out now that never used to be available.

There's some great information in this thread. It's encouraging to find so many SF/F readers who are willing to give self-published books a chance.

After reading so many articles about the changing scene in the publishing industry, I decided to work towards Self-publishing my epic fantasy novel instead of trying the traditional route. Publishing is in such a state of flux that it seemed important to learn the self-publishing ropes now instead of later.

I think someone made the comment earlier in the thread about 'no one knowing where the industry will be in five to ten years'. And that's exactly the feeling I have.

I hope more people come to read self-pubbed fantasy books. After all, I wrote one (and working on four more).

Editing is an issue. The authors need to step up a bit and get editing anyway they can. I had a host of beta readers to help me plus I combed through the manuscript more times than I care to admit.

The cover art is an issue, even on mine. I don't have the money to get a "professional" cover done, and I really don't want to spend $10 on a elaborate doodle. So, as of now, I'm hoping to sell on substance only.

I truly believe there are some indie fantasy gems out there. Readers just need to remember to SAMPLE the book BEFORE they buy it. This is the only way to avoid a wallet heartache.

im with you Thomas...i dont care if a book is from a 'indie' or a 'name' author....everyone starts out in the 'slush pile' until they make that first sale...the reader just wants a good story...

preach on about that 'sample' button on our e-readers....i use it all the time, best invention yet. :)

Straight from the pulpit:

"Ye shall not impulse buy. Ye shall sample scroll before issuing unto it your currency."

;-)

Thomas wrote: "I hope more people come to read self-pubbed fantasy books. After all, I wrote one (and working on four more).

Editing is an issue. The authors need to step up a bit and get editing anyway they c..."

Thomas, you can get some pretty decent stock photos for free and then use a program to make your own ebook cover. I discovered Pixelmator, it's only 14.99$ and does 80% of what photoshop does without learning curve. There are tutorials on Youtube for just about anything you want to do.

Ebook cover maker also seems pretty cool and simple, though I've not purchased this one, I have played with it.
http://www.myecovermaker.com/?gclid=C...

And then there is this article with step by step instructions on how to make a cover using word processing program:
http://michaelcanfield.net/2011/05/19...

a ? just popped to mind...i have always had the impression that SF fans all seem to want to write the stuff. i also have always had the impression this ain't nessarly so for other types of fiction (i have seen this commented on offten in the fan press and pro-zine editorials). i wonder, of the 'indy' authors publishing now for the e-readers (all that seems to be required is to write it, format it, post it, no pesky editor to reject it), as a percentage, how much is SF compaired to other types of fiction?

Sabrina wrote: "Thomas, you can get some pretty decent stock photos for free and then use a program to make your own ebook cover. I discovered Pixelmator, it's only 14.99$ and does 80% of what photoshop does without learning curve. There are tutorials on Youtube for just about anything you want to do."

Thank you, Sabrina! I'll have to look into that!

Spooky1947 wrote: "a ? just popped to mind...i have always had the impression that SF fans all seem to want to write the stuff. i also have always had the impression this ain't nessarly so for other types of fiction ..."

Your impressions aren't far off. Perhaps because the SF/Fantasy genres allow for an ever expansive imagination and provides an arena that's infinite to explore. Reality can be...dull.

As for the actual numbers your looking for, I am not sure. But I'm willing to bet there are tons more out there.

However, with the Twilight trend, there are a lot of tweens who think they can write and have spewed forth a most nauseating amount of vampire vomit called "books." Also, the 50 Shades trend, which has soccer moms doing much the same thing.

It's all about the "trend."

As a consumer, I agree that covers are important. It seems strange to admit, but I do sometimes purchase books just because the cover intrigues me. (And it also displays a certain commitment on the part of the publisher to the book.)

On the other hand, the covers for Wool were totally bland, and I still bought it!

Sabrina wrote: "you can get some pretty decent stock photos for free and then use a program to make your own ebook cover."

While this can work, and is certainly better than a bland vanilla cover, two caveats:

First, graphic design actually is a skill. (Anyone who's ever seen a webpage I created will attest that I have no feel for it whatsoever.) Knowing which Pixelmator tools work doesn't necessarily translate into good taste.

Secondly, the more a cover is attuned to the content of the book, the more likely it is to attract cusotmers. Your comment on covers inspired me to compare the two covers all of our current monthly Contemporary Novel read: Throne of the Crescent Moon discussion topic. The cover that was designed expressly for the story is far more impressive than the stock image editing. (That's a DAW book, not self-published, though.)

about covers....they ARE important...yes, the story's the thing, but lets face it, tons of F & SF books have been sold simply because it had a Boris cover....and i can't begin to imagine how many Conan books Frank Frazetta art has sold...

G33z3r wrote: First, graphic design actually is a skill. (Anyone who's ever seen a webpage I created will attest that I have no feel for it whatsoever.) Knowing which Pixelmator tools work doesn't necessarily translate into good taste.


I definitely agree with you there. Cover design takes an artistic flair and hiring a good artist is ideal, but not always possible. I've noticed that cover art for professional SF/F books is changing. Seems to be leaning more towards realism, with photography and what not, instead of the Throne of the Crescent Moons style cover. Has anyone else noticed that?

I've been keeping my options open while tinkering with Pixelmator. Mostly looking for artists on Deviantart, but so far the only one whose style really stood out was closed for commissions. If anyone knows of a good artist, I'd appreciate a link!

I've always believed that ignoring the trends would be an advantage. After publishing, I appear to have been spectacularly wrong, so my next book will be centered on a masochistic vampire living in a post-apocalyptic dystopia trying to realize his fantasy of being bitten by a human. I figure if I cover all the bases, I'll be in :)

Cover art was the hair puller in my process of publishing my book. I spared no expense on editing. But the artwork, god, I tried three different guys and they were awful. In the end it was a case of me laying on the ground in the fetal position asking "What does a scary looking tree have to do with space?!" over and over. I finally gave up and made my own, not for want of skimping. I second the request for anyone that knows a good artist for sci fi.

dude, you selling a sf story set in space? ise a photo from the Hubble telescope...that's all public domain and all way cool...

Spooky, yep, that's about the size of it.

John wrote: "I've always believed that ignoring the trends would be an advantage. After publishing, I appear to have been spectacularly wrong, so my next book will be centered on a masochistic vampire living in..."

You can't forget the tangled love triangle of frustrated tween angst.

Thanks Angie, glad you liked it. Yes, its self-published. I hope you enjoy book 2 as well. As a new writer I am learning that writing sequels seem to have its own challenges. I get the feeling book 2 isn't what most readers expect, so I'd love to hear you thoughts.

Angie wrote: "I've nearly finished M.M. book and have really enjoyed it. I'll definitely be reading the sequel straight away. Is it a self published book? Since getting my kindle I've read quite a lot of these b..."

I read both, although now I do via towards Indies. Yes it is true there are some badly written and badly edited indie books but that also holds true for trad pubbed. Trad pubbed means it is more likely to be sellable not necessarily any good. There are also plenty of trad pubbed books with mistakes in. It does seem indies have to be perfect in order NOT to be critised.

Publishers only take a few books and a lot of great books get missed out. I have read some excellent stories which simply would not be out there without self publishing.

G33z3r wrote: "M.M. wrote: " It opens up more options for readers who are happy to get away from the cookie-cutter type books previously available,...."

I agree with your other points, MM, but I don't buy that ..."

A valid point. I don't know about science fiction, but I suppose I've not been very lucky in finding an interesting and varied range of traditionally published fantasy over the past ten to fifteen years. I enjoyed most of what I read, but after a while, most of them seemed to follow similar threads and plots. But,of course, that's just my opinion and my own personal experience. There were times I almost gave up trying to find a new and interesting fantasy series or book.

It's true that self-publishing has opened the flood gates and facilitates the creation for all types of work - the good, the bad and the detestable. But I believe just as with the various revolutions developing around us now, increased access to resources would lead to more interesting and varied experiences for various users, including readers.

I could be wrong, but I suspect many traditional publishing houses are behind in some scenes like YA fiction, and here is where I see self-publishing writers actually filling the gaps.

What if any types of "publicity" can persuade readers here to buy indie books?

Gene wrote: "What if any types of "publicity" can persuade readers here to buy indie books?"

Well, a Hugo, Nebula, Locus, BSFA, Campbell, Clarke, Aurora, or Aurialis, Ditmar or PK Dick award nomination wouldn't hurt :)

A favorable review from a SF/F magazine or website would be nice. (The traditional magazines don't seem to look outside the major publishers very often. But then, I suppose being monthly, they don't have space for more than a couple of titles anyway.)

Failing that, your title, cover, and blurb/description are your primary advertisement to attract the first few readers. After that, it's the book's content that has to make word-of-mouth.

Well, I wasn't much help, was it?