THE Group for Authors! discussion

Speaking of PR Wire, I was planning on asking the authors in this group if any of them have ever used PR Wire. My wife Michele has used the free services of PR Wire for years and has been happy with that. But are there any among you who have bought the marketing services of PR Wire or any other provider? And, what was your experience?

I do respect the power of the database PR Wire has and it sure does seem more powerful than my laborious attempt to target media and audiences that might be a match for my book. But, as I said to the rep today, I'm like a fisherman, casting about while wishing the fish would just jump in my boat!

Jerry, (and everyone else),
You are NOT alone. There are so many 'new' authors and ones that have a LOT to offer, that it honestly chaps my hide to see these 'vanity' publishers trying to take advantage of new authors who have worked so hard for months and/or years to get their manuscript to where they are ready to publish. That, my dear author friends, is why we must work together, to keep each other INFORMED, as to what is available, and to provide guidance to those less aware of the finer points of 'self publishing' as opposed to 'vanity' publishing. If an author is lucky enough to get published with a 'traditional' publisher . . . and by traditional, I mean the reputable ones, that will take on your project WITHOUT asking you to pay THEM . . . that is all the better; however, you will still have to actively participate in promotions, and do a little marketing on your own, and that is where the internet can be a most valuable tool. Also, it only takes a phone call to your local venues, libraries, bookstores, etc., to arrange a meeting, show them your book, your media kit (which should include business cards, postcards, bookmarks that can be given away for free with your cover art, places where your book is available online, etc., and even 8.5 X 11 poster handouts with your information, and don't forget to include an author bio). If you can, and have the time to do it, creating a 'book trailer' is also a helpful tool.

Anastacia wrote: "Jerry, (and everyone else),
You are NOT alone. There are so many 'new' authors and ones that have a LOT to offer, that it honestly chaps my hide to see these 'vanity' publishers trying to take adva..."

Although I talk like I know what I'm doing, the truth is I have a lot to learn and I've learned a lot from you post, Anastacia. Thank you.

By the way, what is a "book trailer" and how does one go about creating one?

Jerry,

A book trailer is a short video much like they make for movie trailers.

You can make them yourself, if you have the time & patience. The best program, (although it is expensive) is Camtasia Studio 8.

You can also hire others to make some for you. Personally, I wouldn't spend too much $ on them. However, I can tell you mine have drawn people into my books.

Take a look a the ones I've created for my romantic suspense series below. Hopefully these will give you an idea of what you should be looking for.

Most are around 1 min. long.

Hope this helps.

Trailers
http://bit.ly/131iyh7
http://bit.ly/1acaHUf
http://bit.ly/13O3ABs
http://bit.ly/1ar9QTm


http://bit.ly/11kLQxi



Jerry wrote: "Anastacia wrote: "Jerry, (and everyone else),
You are NOT alone. There are so many 'new' authors and ones that have a LOT to offer, that it honestly chaps my hide to see these 'vanity' publishers t..."

Jill wrote: "Jerry,

A book trailer is a short video much like they make for movie trailers.

You can make them yourself, if you have the time & patience. The best program, (although it is expensive) is Camta..."

Oh wow! I hadn't seen anything like this. You know, I have some bluegrass musician friends who would probably get a kick out of cutting a sound track of "She'll be comin' round the mountain" which was actually rewritten from an old Negro spiritual as a tribute to her history of fighting alongside and at the lead of miners who fought in the coal wars of West Virginia and Colorado.

What gives me pause, is the production tech and talent needed. I don't believe I could do this myself and I couldn't afford to contract it out. Yours are VERY professional.

By the way, the first of your trailers worked fine, but the next three hung up shortly after they started.

Thanks again for your knowledge.

Hmm, they all just worked for me.. Might be slow internet??



Jerry wrote: "Jill wrote: "Jerry,

A book trailer is a short video much like they make for movie trailers.

You can make them yourself, if you have the time & patience. The best program, (although it is expens..."

Jerry,
Book trailers really do help bring visitors to your book sites, blogs, etc.
I created mine just using some of my own photographs, with a few "freeware" thrown in, and a great song that was also "free". I used a program called "movie maker" which actually worked very well for what I wanted to create. You can see mine here on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy4D3o...

I'm convinced. However, right now I'm just overwhelmed with getting the basics of an all-out marketing campaign going. Meanwhile, a trailer is on my to-do list. Thanks.

I am just beginning the whole marketing whirligig so I appreciate just eavesdropping in...I confess I am attracted to the book trailer process...thanks

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but let me add my own thoughts.

In the 1990s, I wound up paying thousands to "Edit Ink," who were eventually investigated by the New York State Attorney General. Google them, they're mentioned by "Preditors & Editors." Also on P&E's list, and also someone I gave undeserved money to, was Victor West. So while I've never been suckered by a vanity press, I have been taken-advantage of, back in the day, because I wanted so fiercely to get published.

In 2011, I started my own indie publishing company, Hypo To Helio Books. So far, I've published six titles, which have cost me about three thousand dollars in business expenses. (The three biggest expenses: buying Adobe Photoshop and MS Word 2010, and buying a bloc of a hundred ISBNs from Bowker.)

As an indie publisher, I've had to learn lots of technical stuff that was _way_ outside all my previous experience; the EPUB-validation program EPUBCHECK almost drove me to drinking.

But now I'm selling Createspace-printed paperbacks through Amazon, and I'm selling ebooks through Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Kobo. The point is, the only thing that I've felt that I needed to hire outside help on was the cover; for five of my six books, I commissioned an artist.

These days, I simply don't need to deal with a vanity publisher. And if you're willing to spend a little money and you're willing to climb a steep learning curve, you don't need to deal with a vanity publisher either.

I take it you do your own editing then?

> I take it you do your own editing then?

Yes, basically. Cold-reading catches some grammar errors, and alpha-readers catch some grammar and content errors. But I can't begin to afford to pay any kind of editor.

There is a whole lot more to editing than typo's, grammar, and punctuation. A WHOLE LOT MORE...

There's also content -- did you miss that part of my earlier comment?

Actually, I've found that an alpha-reader who can tell me plainly, "In your manuscript, I found Part A to be confusing, and Part B to be boring," does as much to improve my book as any Manhattan content editor ever could.

Nick wrote: "There is a whole lot more to editing than typo's, grammar, and punctuation. A WHOLE LOT MORE..."

You are absolutely right, Nick. Unfortunately, too many amateur authors think otherwise. It's all about context, meaning, creativity, etc. Machines may successfully turn out widgets, but technology cannot replace human intelligence. Regardless of the hype.

After MONTHS of editing and rewriting I have received the ebook versions of Hellraiser—Mother Jones: An Historical Novel, from the publisher today and I will be picking up promo copies of the pbook tomorrow. MONTHS! of editing and I am a seasoned, specifically educated, professional writer! Certified and experienced.

Fortunately, my wife Michele is cut from the same cloth as an editor and I can't imagine what it would have cost me to have another pro do what she has done.

What made this book a bear to edit was that I am telling history in the present tense. But not always. There are times when Mother Jones is talking explicitly about the past and sometimes she is telling her story in the present tense and first person, as though she is taking the reader along for the ride. That has been the most difficult piece of writing I have ever done, bar none.

But it was important to my purpose which was to bring Mother Jones back, alive, in person, telling her story and taking the reader along with her through the more action-packed episodes. Not just as a literary device, but to the purpose of Hellraiser which is to motivate the victims of today's economic inequality to push back as MoJo did from the Civil War to the Great Depression.

I'll tell you what: I have learned a lot about writing and editing with this book and I've been doing both for over 60 years.

Now, while I'm on my stump, I worry a great deal about the degeneration of the recorded word, first on the Internet and now with indie publishing. The big publishing houses are dismissing their editors as they lose market and the new writer/publishers are either unwilling or unable to engage quality editors at an acceptable rate of compensation.

Michele is first a designer, then an editor. And she has quit doing editing for authors unless they engage her to design the cover and layout as well as edit the book. Her compensation for editing amounts to pennies an hour while she is able to make it up on what she makes on cover and text design.

I am afraid, so very afraid, that our library shelves will soon be as contaminated by sloppy writing as the Internet itself.

I say this a lot: "Everyone needs a good editor!"

P.S. This P.S. represents the third time I have edited this post AFTER posting it. Edited it several time before posting. And, I won't be finished with editing Hellraiser until I have received critiques from a host of reviewers over the next two months. If the reviewers find faults, we'll fix them before finally attaching the ISBNs and releasing the book for market. We are that serious about quality.

Nick, we meet again. I could never afford to pay a publisher....ever. No Vanity for me. Good thing or not?

Jerry, if my books need editing, do you know who will tell me? Reviewers on Amazon—and they won't be tactful. And until/unless my bookbuyers tell me that I need an editor, I see the hundreds or thousands of dollars that I would pay for an editor, as a needless expense.

When I write, I write only to be clear; I strive to put a picture, a sound, a smell, or an idea into my readers' heads. My bachelor's degree is not in English, neither as major nor minor, and I have zero interest in the approval of English professors. (As opposed to the approval of my bookbuyers; their approval I care highly about.) I don't worry about the "degeneration of" the written word, or whether my writing evokes Hemingway; I worry about "Can I put my reader into Joe's head in this tense scene?"

If you go to a library now and find bad writing, what does that prove? That published books were better written in the "old days"? Read some Sidney Sheldon or Jacqueline Susann, and you'll change your mind.

The best books are the ones with editors. I always think less of an author that doesn't care enough not to have an editor and by editor, I mean a good one. If I'm annoyed by the writing, Im less likely to buy anything else from the author and down it goes into the slush pile. No one is attacking you as an author. We are merely stating that an editor can make or break your success.

No, Hannah, _what I write_ makes or breaks my success.

Content > ["is greater than"] perfect grammar
Pleasing readers > the blessings of editors

"If I'm annoyed by the writing, Im less likely to buy anything else from the author..."

Then leave a review on Amazon of the book you read, giving it less than a five-star rating, and saying why. You'll do the author a favor.

I`ve just had a grand meal of my own new potatoes, salmon, local BC
prawns and a swack of various vegetables, mostly local. You would think I had no room for food for thought. But I do. Tomorrow.

Thomas,

Content? Content? A word is content. A word forms part of a sentence, a paragraph, a chapter, the story. Misuse a word and the sentence, paragraph, story can change.

I assume you mean storytelling? But its hard to say because the content of your reply is vague and unclear...

Again, all I can say is that editing is not about perfect grammar. Stop with the perfect grammar shit. I am not sure you have a clear understanding what an editor or copy editor does. You are trying to justify why you do not hire editors as a small indie publisher, and really, it comes down to money. You can't afford it. But that is not to say, the books you publish could not use professional editing. Since I have not read any of your books, I could not say.

As to leaving a review of less than five-star rating. No one pays me to be a fucking proofreader for them. I buy a book, I expect it to be readable. I don't expect to have to bring out the red pen or mention to the writer/publisher that the sentence/paragraph formating was ass backwards in spots, or that there are missing plot points, jumbled PoV, or the book was full of misused words that did not mean what the writer/publisher thought they meant.

As a reader, if I am annoyed by the writing, I am less likely to buy anything else from the author, or that publisher who had the final say...

Think on it...

Hanna, (with an H)

Good to see you again, and I totally agree. A good editor can make a good book even better. But, a good editor also make a publishers books even better.

Just like writers, there are good editors, bad editors, and wannabee editors.

I'm a wannabe editor! Thanks Nick! I agree with you as well. I don't want to read a book with a bunch of errors and writing structure that is all over the place and I recently read a book that needed an editor not for grammar but for content structure. Her book was all over the place and confusing as all hell. An editor can make or break a career, I should know. I'm an authir as well. It's why my book won't see the light of day before an editor does.

As always Nick, I live your sour taste of reality.

Btw, this is a cutthroat industry. I'm not going to help out my competitors.

I want to thank all of you for this discussion group. I almost "bit" on the offer from Tate Publishing. Now I know better. Regarding the erosion of good grammar in today's world - EVERY book I read I find at least one error, some more than that. Not only that, but when I read news on the Internet, I find spelling and grammar mistakes made by supposedly "professional" journalists. Maybe I should start a new career as an editor. LOL

Hannah wrote: "I'm a wannabe editor! Thanks Nick! I agree with you as well. I don't want to read a book with a bunch of errors and writing structure that is all over the place and I recently read a book that need..."

Sorry Hannah, but I'm going to edit your post. "Author" is spelled with an "o".

I just got the email today from Tate. It seems their fee changed...well at least where it goes. Now they ask for $3,990 retainer for a "professional publicist"

If there's anything I need is help selling copies, but if I had $4,000 I wouldnt need it haha

So true! They quoted me $4,000. Thanks to my fellow Goodreads authors, I cancelled my contract while I was only $150 in.

Steer clear of this shady business!

I'm not an idiot who doesn't know how to spell author. Blame touch screen technology. And this is a forum. It doesn't have to be proper. And sorry that not everyone is perfect like you. We all make mistakes, but that's why there are editors in this world. Sorry I don't hire one for my comments.

I recently got a call from Tate Publishing that they are helping out authors with free book deals,they are publishing any books for no additional charge and all
I have to do is provide the illustrations and if I don't have my own and if I wanted them to do it they would charge a fee of $1000 and they would arrangement payments. This is totally my dream and I am a true newbie and one thing that I don't need is a dream crusher, so I need some honest and helpful feedback. Thank you.

There is only one rule new authors need to know, understand and commit to heart - money flows TO the author.
If any "publisher" asks you to contribute so much as a dime, run. A legit publisher makes money by selling books to the public, a vanity press makes money by taking it from the author. There are many legit small presses, I am with one (Curiosity Quills Press) and they pay for everything: cover art, editing, proof reading, formatting, and some marketing. Whether you go Big 5 or self pub you still need to do marketing and promotion.
Here is a question for those who signed with Tate, AuthorHouse or similar.... how many books did you have to sell to start making a profit? I made a profit on book #1.

Jill for what it's worth, you can publish a physical book thru Amazon, Lulu, CreateSpace, etc....
I've been researching Amazon, I know it takes sone time to get all the setup right, but it costs you nothing. They make the book as someone orders it & you can buy as many as you like at cost to distribute as you'd like.
As I said I personally have not done this yet myself. So anyone is welcome to give feedback.

Well, I hope this helps. There are three basic forums that any author might be publish through: Traditional (Big 5), Self, and Partnership Publishing. Contrary to the opinion, all publishing cost, the only questions are who foots the bill and how are the profits shared. For the traditional route the author has no out of pocket expenses, but will also recoup less of the profit. If the author self pubs then all the profit belongs to her, she also eats all the cost. In the other model both the cost and the profits are shared. Now when it comes to a partnership publisher, remember, they are not all the same. Look at the contract and talk to some of their clients before you sign. I hope that helps.

I thought Tate was legit, not having bothered to research them before I submitted my novelette. I figured, "They had (local author) in (x and y paper), had a book signing in at least one local store, they're Christian...why should I worry?" Especially since they said they'd "work" with me.

Their idea of "working" with you is allowing you to set up a payment plan, but not sending your book to press until you've paid at least half the fee.

EXCUSE ME?! I am a working student, NOT a wealthy stiff! I am not going to wait YEARS to earn $1,995 so you'll send it to press! I guess they don't love me enough to give me the "free and clear" deal.

Which is all right, if you think about it. Going back to Amazon for the fourth time means I can have total creative control and release it on MY schedule.

Not to mention that they wouldn't like the sex. I don't think they even read the three chapters I sent them, because--based on someone's earlier comment--they probably would've had a hairy canary to see Jesus interacting with a priestess of Isis and not have her thinking of converting for a SECOND during the story! (I know I asked "how Christian are you, really?" [as in: "are you as bible-thumping as your site makes you out to be?"], but that doesn't mean the gal that was working with me knows squat about whether the bigshots are actually hardliners.)

I only wish I had the money for promo materials, so that I could sell a few copies of my books! (I haven't made enough royalties in paperback to get a check from Amazon--ever--and I've only made enough Kindle sales to get $11 last year. But at least my "book giveaways" are popular!)

By the way: "interacting with the Christos" means exactly that. The Romans are the one getting involved in sex in this book.

Dayanara wrote: "I thought Tate was legit, not having bothered to research them before I submitted my novelette. I figured, "They had (local author) in (x and y paper), had a book signing in at least one local store, they're Christian...why should I worry?..."

In my opinion, businesses that proclaim being "Christian," are companies to stay well clear of; unless they are selling bibles, I guess. Invariably they are a scam or right-wing fundamentalists. Either way, the customer is at risk as the use of the term Christian is strictly intended to give a false sense of security where none exists. If I'm selling widgets, you need to know about my widgets, not what my beliefs in the afterlife are.

Glad you made the choice you did.

Norm Hamilton
Author of The Digital Eye and the soon to be released From Thine Own Well
Indie Writer Book Reviews
Services for Writers
Website
email: Norm Hamilton

I went to a school that was supposedly Christian and had one sorority that invited strippers every year. So I know exactly what you mean, Norm. ;)

1. Nothing IN life is really free. Outside that realm is an entirely different matter.

2. Sex sells, so does the notion that because someone puts a cross in front of their door, that I can trust what's behind door number 1, 2, or 3.

3. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... you know the gig!

4. As an honest Christian believer myself, I'm aware of the charlatans out there, more than most. Thomas Nelson is the biggest disappointment to me. They are the largest of the so-called Christian Publishing Houses, and yet they recently stooped to adding an imprint which bilks the pockets of trusting and unsuspecting newbie writers. Hey, what the heck, everyone else is getting into the act of grabbing the cash from writers who will probably never make it in the industry, why not them too. SICK, if you ask me. Don Greywolf Ford

3. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... you know the gig!

Of course, it's a quote from George W. Bush, ending with "...well, you can't get fooled again!" and a deer-in-the-headlights expression!

Sex sells only when you're not a "Christian publisher" with a "reputation" to keep. Not only that, but if you were raised with the impression that Pontius Pilatus was practically next to Satan on the "scale of evil" (as I was), why would you want to read a novelette where he has sex? (Especially when the first time is assault?)

Of course, I lose any potential "Christian market" by including Pagans who don't convert, so why should it concern me?

I published with Tate. My mom paid my author investment. Loved the editing, layout, cover. Marketing is the downside.

Wonderful that you had an angel investor. Now let's see if she will ever get her investment back, as they claim!

Marketing is always the downside, and we are told by most reputable publishing enterprises to be aware of this fact. They say don't look to us to sell your book, it is mostly you marketing it on your own, though there may be claims to the contrary. It's your baby, and you have to begin tooting your own horn to (as Dayanar aluded to) recoop the investment over the rest of your life. I'm not exaggerating here!
Cheers, Don

I find it interesting that no one who is "happy" with their Tate experience has said anything about sales & royalties. I would assume since you paid for production you keep 100% of royalties from Amazon, Kobo, B&N, iTunes etc? How long did it take to earn back your "author investment"? These are questions which reveal the true nature of Tate's practices.
Marketing is the bane of a writers existence these days. Look at the reasons mid-listers are leaving their trad deals, it is because of no marketing support.

Okay, must be I threw out my Tate contract when I got upset, but I know for a FACT that you do not keep all the royalties. Remember, they are billing themselves as a TRADITIONAL publisher. Furthermore, the $4k isn't for production, it's to pay a retainer for their (apparently terrible, judging by the other comments on here) publicist/marketing team.

4k for publicist/marketing? Whoa... PT Barnum was right, there really is one born every minute if people are falling for that :(

A.W.,
It's difficult to reason with a person who has more money than brains, and looking for a place to burn it. And I do mean BURN it! Cheers, Truth hurts; I'm well aware of that. If a writer blows his money like the little child blowing on a whited dandelion, well we know where that cash goes - to the four corners of the globe - GONE! Don

I'm glad I went back to Amazon. I may not be selling much, but it's no fuss/no muss. And I'm finally branching out to Smashwords, so that's an up.

Nick wrote: "There is a whole lot more to editing than typo's, grammar, and punctuation. A WHOLE LOT MORE..."

I agree Nick. I could not have edited my own book.

I wish Jill's experience was not common fare. Every time we turn around another new writer has been hoodwinked, and much of their money drained to satisfy these monsters calling themselves Publishers. Once their hook is set, they keep coming after the writer for more money, and this then smacks of harassment, and a lawyer might be able to assist when this happens.

The best we can do is to continue putting up Warning Signs to steer folks away from them, and others who are in the same business of bilking the unknowing.

The one doing the work is the writer, and these other clowns get to take all of their proceeds, rob them of the joy of being published, and laugh their heads off all the way to the bank with no conscience in the matter. In some cases Tate, and others like them, financially shipwreck lives. When you think about Tate, think of Hate, and stay far away.

Jill, there may be a Class Action lawsuit pending that you could add your name to.

Cheers, Don