Should have read classics discussion

This is the group read for April. Please remember spoiler alerts and happy reading!

I'm picking up my copy today from the library and hope to get started tonight, if the weather will cooperate and be cold.

I'm about 1/3 through the book and am enjoying it.

Another Goodreads group is also reading this book. They have provided a link that might help us understand some of the obscure references in the book. It also explains some of the British slang.

http://www.abbotshill.freeserve.co.uk...

I have already found it helpful in understanding some phrases. It is organized by chapters.

I don't normally watch movies of books I read, but the Granada version of Brideshead Revisited was strongly recommended to me. It's really a mini-series, and not so mini -- roughly 15 hours for the full series. I haven't finished it, but so far it's very detailed, follows the book almost exactly as far in the book as I've read (about 1/3), and uses the first person voice for bits that aren't easy to show in film, and expands on bits that are only alluded to in the book (for example, the visit to Venice is much better fleshed out in the film than in the book).

To say more about it t this point would involve spoilers, so I won't, but if you have the time, it's quite good, though sometimes fairly disturbing.

Any initial thoughts or comments?

Why do you think Sebastian carried a teddy bear around? Was he insecure, attention seeking, devoted to a childhood toy, etc?

☯Emily wrote: "Why do you think Sebastian carried a teddy bear around? Was he insecure, attention seeking, devoted to a childhood toy, etc?"

I have been thinking about that too. I think, despite his 19 years of age, he is still very childish in many ways. Everyone needs to be owned - people belong to someone as with Charles who he sees as his and doesn't much like it when others are seen to 'intrude'.

He still has a close relationship with his Nanny, and he often displays childlike behaviours when wanting something - I must have ... I've just got to have ... Look at how he announces he is dying when he has only broken a small bone in his foot! His Mother didn't even permit him to have an allowance, "Mummy likes everything to be a present". At this I wondered because he is babied by his Mother in this way if this is the reason for his being naive, or whether he is a little simple. But then you'd think he wouldn't be at college if it were the latter?

So, why is he treated in this way? What is his place in the family - youngest child perhaps? Is the way he clings to his childhood, Nanny and teddy bear because he is truly the child who never grew up?

Well, I have read ahead enough to know that he wasn't the youngest child. Hopefully, the reason will become clearer as I read further.

☯Emily wrote: "Why do you think Sebastian carried a teddy bear around? Was he insecure, attention seeking, devoted to a childhood toy, etc?"

All of the above? In addition, I think it was his way of being different, having something special about him.

I'm far enough that there's another point, though for those still early in the book it may be a spoiler, so I'll hide it.

(view spoiler)[ It's clear enough to me that he's a raging homosexual. (Waugh was strongly homosexual himself.) It was not unusual at the time, given the strict separation of the genders at school and elsewhere for boys to experiment with homosexuality quite casually, but it seems to me that for Sebastian it's far more than casual. The teddy bear may be in part his way of advertising his sexual proclivities. (hide spoiler)]

Uh, I came in to say Sebastian was neither naive or simple, and give my reason for believing this but I see Everyman has got there first.
(view spoiler)[ I am sure too that Sebastian is homosexual. When living in France with Anthony Blanche, he is constantly intoxicated. In trying to help him by introducing other 'activities' and tells him ""If you want to be intoxicated, there are so many much more delicious things." I am just not sure whether the man Sebastian is sent to is a male prostitute or a purveyor of other 'delicious things' (drugs?). This and the fact that after he messes up there and moves on to Tangiers, he takes up with another down and out male friend. (hide spoiler)]

This is what causes me to draw this conclusion. Interestingly I notice the teddy bear isn't mentioned now.

I've finished Brideshead Revisited back in January, so spoilers.
(view spoiler)[ Much of the book is about converting to Catholicism, specially the second part. Sebastian is a great character, his family life is constantly influenced by his very religious and martyr of a mother.
Charles seems to think they're all have guilty complex brought by their religion, and though he's not a very reliable narrator in the first part, seems to be the case of Sebastian, who (I'm 99,9999% sure) is homosexual. So enters the long talks he has with the priest in school, his self-destructive behavior, the teddy bear in an attempt to look more innocent etc.
By the way, sometimes this book seems like a merry ride in the guilt-trip roller-coaster for most of the characters. In the end (which I found really disappointing), Charles also converts to Catholicism, says that God always find a way to bring people to the light side or such nonsense.
It is what makes the ending so disappointing to me, the characters are always making the worst choices in their lives, that will make them obviously unhappy, so they stay in the "right side" of the Roman Catholic Church. It's frustrating at best. It's an amazing book, with amazing characters, but really frustrating. My family is roman catholic, and although I'm not, I don't think its a religion that imposes such misery on most people in the way Waugh seems to think, even though he was a converted catholic himself (maybe because of that?). (hide spoiler)]

I am only halfway through the book, but it seems obvious that Sebastian is an alcoholic. He acts like many who have an addiction. He feels anyone who tries to limit his drinking is trying to control him. He goes to great lengths to find money to buy those drinks. He disappears quite often, usually in a devious way. He resents any and all efforts of help. All efforts to help him fail because, at least so far, he doesn't want help. Am interested to see what happens to him.

May wrote: "I've finished Brideshead Revisited back in January, so spoilers."

I've also finished, but will wait until later in the month for substantive discussion of it. Enjoyed your spoiler comments, though I question some of them and will look forward to a full discussion with more readers.

I too have finished and enjoyed the story although the ending was not what I expected.I found the way a couple of elements were introduced puzzling and am looking forward to further discussion too.

I have noticed that I tend to have a harder time getting into book from the early twentieth century. I'm not quite sure why, between this book, and the Edith Wharton books, I just can't keep myself interested. I'm trying to figure out if it is a writing style or a subject thing. Does anyone else have this problem with books from certain time periods?

Lisa, I'm interested in your comment. I like writers from this period, particularly Edith Wharton, and I find that time period interesting. There is something different about it. I'm not sure how much is the setting, and how much is something about attitudes of the times, the feel of impending change. The writing style does tend toward long sentences with multiple clauses, so you are forced to hold a lot in your head at one time, and skimming would not work. I'm a fairly slow reader, but I can see where this type of writing could be less enjoyable for someone who normally reads quickly. (And sometimes it's too much for me. I have bounced on a couple of Henry James novels.)

Lisa, this book was published during World War II (1945) and deals with the time period between the two great wars. It doesn't have the same feel to me as Wharton's most famous books which were mostly published before 1920. It could be you are just not as interested in these time periods. That was a problem with me for a while. 20th century lit had no appeal. However, now that we are in the 21st century, these books seem more like classics and have become dated, revealing the mindset of the times. What is surprising me in Brideshead Revisited is the openness towards homosexual behavior. It has a very modern feel in that respect.

I think that it might be that both of you might have hit on some of the reasons. I do tend to read quickly and the structure does not lead to a quick read, plus that time frame between the wars is not in my interest. I never noticed it until last weekend at a bookclub that I attend. Someone had brought the 1000 books that you should read before you die, and as I perused the 20th century, I realized that many of the books were ones that I started and never finished or really disliked. Go figure! I'm trying though ladies!

I have enjoyed reading all of your comments. I just started this morning and find it very different from most things I have read. I can't wait to see where this novel goes!

I have to say that I'm not very far into the book, but after reading the spoilers above, I would have to agree with those comments. I'm pretty sure that it would be ok with everyone to start openly talking about the book. It is the 19th so please feel free to discuss the book in more depth. I'm not far, but I will not pitch a fit, I promise! I have to amend my previous comment and say that the farther I get in the book, I find it easier to get into it.

I found the first part of the book easy to read and enjoyable. However, the book got progressively grim. There is always the quiet beat of war drums in the background. I think that contributes to the hopelessness and sadness of the ending. I began to dislike Charles, the narrator, especially how he ignored his children. I liked Sebastian in the beginning of the book, but he disappears somewhere in the middle and we only hear negative reports of him thereafter. Overall, I was disappointed in the book.

I have mixed feelings about the book, but I love the beginning enough that, despite the grim ending, I still like the book. The prose is beautiful. The characters are interesting and engaging. Sometimes people you know and admire in real life turn out to have feet of clay, and I found Sebastian's fall believable. The book has some wonderfully witty dialogue. My feelings for the book are probably colored by having seen the TV mini-series, many years ago, before I ever read the book, so that when I read the book now I still see those actors and hear their voices in my head. But I have read the book a couple of times since I saw the series, and every time I read it, I marvel at at how the author brings these characters to life.

I read the book in October 1980 and loved it. It was probably read with TV mini-series fresh in my memory as well as a recent trip to England where I visited many of these gorgeous homes. Twenty-three years later, I read it differently. I certainly don't think it is as well written as I remembered. I don't even think it is Waugh's best work any more.

Emily, what do you thing is Waugh's best work?

Since I haven't read much Waugh recently, I'll have to reread them. I remember all of them being fascinating, but since I reread Brideshead and didn't like it very much, maybe I'll change my mind about all of them. The last I read was The Ordeal Of Gilbert Pinfold, which I thought was wonderful.

Thanks, Emily. I have added it to my very optimistic and very long "to be read" list.

I have to say that I'm struggling with this novel. I'm usually a fast reader, but I'm only about halfway through after two weeks. None of the characters are really grabbing me, and the plot line just doesn't seem very interesting. I'm going to push through and hoope for the best.