The History Book Club discussion

For those of you who have completed the book and/or who want to discuss aspects of the book which are beyond our weekly assignments in the non spoiler threads, this thread is a spoiler thread where you can discuss those points.

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by John Milton Cooper Jr.

So close to the end, that I couldn't stop myself and I finished the book earlier than scheduled for our read. I enjoyed the book and thought Cooper did a good job of explaining Wilson and the time period. Well done.

No problem, Kathy, I'm glad you liked the book. I am learning a lot and I'm happy to read it along with all of you.

Feel free to keep posting in the other threads, though. We are almost done :-)

Final thoughts. It was difficult for me to review the book because I find Wilson intellectually unappealing. For example, early on in the book the author gives us a taste of the man who became president. On Page 31, Cooper points out that Wilson mentions in an article the importance of debate, but he didn’t take his own advice when he became president (either of Princeton or of the US). As an example of his ‘my way or the highway’ approach was his inability to adjust to the academic style at Johns Hopkins. He thought he knew better than his professors. He argued for a stronger presidency in Congressional Government, which in the details showed a singular lack of understanding the importance of negotiations in government. Others saw this flaw early on. Lawrence Lowell claimed Wilson ‘Lacked a scientific mind’ and saw everything ‘through a haze of his own preconceptions’. All this foreshadows his second presidential term.

So we see a man of ideals and progressive thoughts, but without the vision as to how to accomplish those goals in his specific political environment. In many ways he was the father of progressivism. He believed in peace, but did not understand how to achieve it. He was a man who believed in suffrage, but didn’t really understand what was involved. He was a man who believed in equality but didn’t understand the politics behind it.

Cooper has said nothing to convince me that Wilson wasn’t much more than an imperious and self-righteous man. I saw him as a hapless president with excellent ideals but without the diplomacy, pragmatism and negotiating skills to accomplish them.

Cooper has written a book that brings Wilson into focus for me. While I had some issues with how he jumped around topically (the Pancho Villa episodes come immediately to mind), overall I thought it was a very good book. I was not always engaged – that may have been the subject matter – but it was very good, nonetheless.

Ultimately, he allowed me to see that Wilson was a person on the cusp of the modern but he failed to rise to the challenge.

Thanks for giving us a thought-provoking review, G.

Bryan wrote: "Thanks for giving us a thought-provoking review, G."
Bryan, unfortunately, those are just my final thoughts, what I was left with after finishing the book. The actual review also includes his first term, which is where progress was made. It's too bad that we are left with his failures because they came at the end (this is not an author issue, just human nature).

Fair enough, G. Wilson's life ends on a sad note, his last 5 years were rough. He was able to recover some from his stroke, but he wanted to do so much more with his last years, and he couldn't. It is seen by many people who face disability at the end of life.

His legacy is still with us, though, and he made a positive difference in the world, too.

I know I didn't participate in all of the discussions but I did read through all of them and finished the book this weekend. I appreciated these discussions, even if I was unable to get time in to respond, as it helped in my understand of such a comprehensive book. Below is my review/final thoughts:

John Milton Cooper Jr.'s Woodrow Wilson is a very well researched and extensive biography of the former democratic president. The book chronicles his private and public life from boyhood, student, presidency of Princeton, governorship of New Jersey, and US presidency to his death. When the reader finishes this book, there will be no doubt to Wilson's thoughts, ideas, and positions on a plethora of topics including women's rights, civil rights, education, politics, WWI, and the League of Nations.

This biography also detailed his family and romantic life through his two marriages to Ellen Axson to her death and to Edith Galt as well as his his close relationship and possible affair with Mary Hulbert Peck.

The picture of Wilson I came away with after reading this biography was of a headstrong, progressive character that may have been a bit before his time. I didn't see him as a man who wanted to compromise, which likely was why there was so much headbutting between himself and the senate over The League of Nations and Article X. Although he was strong in his desire to push through the ideas he had on the League, I don't think he was able to portray himself as a man who demanded his way or the highway, like LBJ. I believe he thought that all he needed to do was talk things out and convince congress and the people to adopt the League. The toll and stress of his presidency very likely affected his health, leading to multiple strokes. We then see the president as a near invalid who still would not back down and would not concede the presidency, leaving one to consider who was really running the presidency during his convalescence, his wife Edith? Dr. Grayson? Tumulty? I am sure I did not fully comprehend all that this book offers, but it certainly left me wanting to dig deeper into the Wilson years.

A very balanced view Teri - thank you for your post and your Book as a Whole comments.

Thanks so much, Teri. You know you got a good book in your hands when you want to read more about the topic.

I gained much from the book and the comments. Though he had political success in his first term, it strikes me that the range of his intellect was not wide and at crucial points in his second term he lacked the insight to know when to strive for political advantage or to stand down and let his positions, in the common parlance, evolve.

So true, Frank. I think negotiating with leaders of countries is much different than Congress. You get the impression he was over his head.

Sad end to an important life. You always feel he deserved better than what he got. Portrait throughout however is a man prone to bitterness.

Relationship and falling out with Colonel House is not well explored.

Thanks Phillip, I do agree the House relationship could have been expanded.

He wanted to do so much more in his retirement

Since I wrote such a long bleat earlier in this thread, I'll make my book review here short(er).

Mr. Cooper did an admirable job of making this man live, warts and all. He clearly has a great depth of knowledge of his subject and gives us a subtle unclothing of a very layered, very complex person. I knew very little about Wilson before reading this book. Cooper has given me a portrait of a man who was both farsighted and short sighted.

However, I was appalled by Wilsons lack of advisors and the poor choices he made for his inner circle, although one didn’t really exist – he relied on himself. Considering how crucial these roles are to a successful presidency, I wish Mr. Cooper had gone into greater detail about how Wilson viewed advisors, the role his wives played, and the failed relationships with Bryan and House. But given that this is a comprehensive one volume biography, some short cuts can be forgiven.

I am quite happy to have read such a detailed book on someone about whom I knew so little.

G wrote: "Since I wrote such a long bleat earlier in this thread, I'll make my book review here short(er).

Mr. Cooper did an admirable job of making this man live, warts and all. He clearly has a great dept..."

Thanks G.

This biography of Woodrow Wilson is a very readable study of one of our most important presidents. It is a generally sympathetic treatment of a man who was a gifted intellectual, an exceptionally hard worker, and a dedicated advocate of his own vision of progress. He was one of those rare human beings – an academic who had the chance to practice what he preached.

I learned a lot from Cooper about Wilson’s impressive contributions as a political theorist, university reformer, and leader of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Cooper doesn’t shy away from his blindness when it came to black people and Civil Rights. From the material that he presents, I think he could also have come down harder on him for two of his greatest weaknesses – his inability to compromise with his enemies and his failure to develop strong and capable subordinates. He seemed to think he could do it all.

I was particularly interested in reading about Wilson’s road to involvement in World War I and his participation in the peace process. His rank among historians would have been much higher if he had not been confronted with this huge foreign policy job – a field in which he had very little experience.

Cooper does an excellent job of detailing the effects of his declining health and then incapacity. This proved very unfortunate not only for Wilson, but for the country as a whole.

Cooper held my interest throughout this 599 page book – no mean feat! I highly recommend this biography and rate it 5 stars.

I would also like to thank Bryan for doing a wonderful job of leading this discussion. He is always welcoming, asks thought provoking questions, and provides a wealth of additional information.

Thank you Ann for your post and review - well done and glad that you enjoyed both the discussion and the book.

I know that Bryan wil appreciate your comments.

Thanks so much Ann. Until next time :)

Bryan, good job once again with a polarizing subject - I think folks on both sides of the fence learned something from the book, the discussion and changed their impressions of Wilson in some way.

The power of good discussions.

I finished this book a little earlier as well . . . I felt the book achieved it's goals as a biography of Wilson . . . and since I knew so little of the man . . . it didn't have to strive very hard to achieve that goal. In my endeavor to read biographies of each of the Presidents . . . and hopefully have at least 2 books about each of them to offer a more balanced perspective I am also looking forward to reading another new bio coming out in Sept. of this year. I must say that it also peaked my interest in learning more about WWI and the circumstances surrounding it.
As usual Bryan . . . another great moderating job . . . thanks so much for taking the time to lead this group!

Tomerobber wrote: "I finished this book a little earlier as well . . . I felt the book achieved it's goals as a biography of Wilson . . . and since I knew so little of the man . . . it didn't have to strive very hard..."

Thank you for joining me.

I have always been drawn to Wilson’s 1916 rivals; Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard Taft. The adventurous Teddy Roosevelt was very outgoing and his days in the White House resembled a version of “Cheaper by the Dozen”. Taft was unique in that he held his tenure as Supreme Court Justice above his service as President. Wilson won the election, but I always regarded him as a stiff and boring elitist, lacking personality. My opinion has now changed slightly.

America’s early 20th Century combined with WWI USMC history fascinates me and propelled me to read Cooper’s biography of Wilson. Overall I thought Cooper did a good job. From my perspective I wish he had elaborated more on Wilson as commander-in-chief in the first global war as much politics was played out. Unknown to many, once Wilson and his Secretary of War Newton Baker appointed General Pershing as commander of the American Expeditionary Forces, Pershing wished to leave the Marines at home. Pershing was overruled and one brigade of Marines was allowed to fight in France, which is great history. Wilson was close to Secretary of the Navy Joseph Daniels and through this connection he may have appreciated the Navy’s little brother, the Marine Corps, similar to that of FDR.

I just finished reading the memoirs of General A. A. Vandegrift USMC, the18th Commandant of the Marine Corps, and following the Second World War he stated: “Knowing that Congress had defeated the attempts of several of our Presidents (Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt, Taft and Hoover) to put the Corps out of business…”. What in the world! For me this revelation spoke volumes and I now appreciate Wilson’s tenure a bit more and that of Theodore Roosevelt and Taft a bit less. Still with the History Club reading Joseph Persico’s “Roosevelt’s Centurions” along with Logan Beirne’s “Blood of Tyrants: George Washington & the Forging of the Presidency” I believe Wilson comes up short to Washington or FDR as a strong commander-in-chief.

I gave 5 stars to A. Scott Berg’s biography of Lindbergh. Maybe his newly released biography of Wilson will shed a bit more light on the commander-in-chief.

by Logan Beirne
by Joseph E. Persico
by A. Scott Berg (no photo)
by A. Scott Berg (no photo)
(no cover) Once a Marine: The Memoirs of General A. A. Vandegrift Commandant of the U.S. Marines in WW II by A.A. Vandergrift (no photo)

Good posting and review Mark

G wrote: "Final thoughts. It was difficult for me to review the book because I find Wilson intellectually unappealing. For example, early on in the book the author gives us a taste of the man who became pr..."

so I read everyone's closing comments and I would only comment on these of G.

I think you are not segregating the pre- 14 points from the 14 points and onward and seem to be judging all from the end.

Wilson may not have been perfect in choosing and managing but he lived in a simpler time than now and his brilliance and industry probably gave him the chance to get the work done even with his imperfect staff choices (look at Lincoln too in that regard - )

He seemed to have not understood and realized the long standing intolerance of Europe that would, and sometime still does, stand in the way of a harmonious peace. He did not face four years of death and suffering (civilians as well as soldiers) that our Allies faced. His want/need for revenge did not exist as did theirs. And let's remember these Europeans were shooting at each other in regular intervals for most all of the 19th century before the 20th.

So I think it was a good book - I think that Cooper leaned towards Wilson but it was pretty obvious.

For me it was a good, albeit sometimes slow, read (I take time to understand things sometimes) but immensely informative and germane to understanding that period of American/World history.

But G you certainly might be righter than me at the end of the day.

Vince wrote: "G wrote: "Final thoughts. It was difficult for me to review the book because I find Wilson intellectually unappealing. For example, early on in the book the author gives us a taste of the man who..."

Vince, I don't think there is a right or wrong, just opinion and I (in many cases unfortunately) have more than my share of strong opinions.

The more I think about this book, the more I realize I got an awful lot from it. I did look at Wilson's pre WWI, 14 points persona and I think it was his upbringing and earlier experiences at Princeton, especially, that led to his inability to hear what others had to say and to value his own opinion above all others. This became a mindset which resulted in his poor performance on the world stage and in WWI. Thanks for reminding me about the level of hostility in Europe prior to WWI. I was somehow looking at the first World War in a vacuum - big mistake.

I am now reading a group read on FDR, who was for many the ultimate politician and the differences between him and Wilson are amazingly stark.

Your comments have convinced me I need to do more reading on the first WW. Thanks!

by Joseph E. Persico

And thank you Vince and G, as always, some great discussions and points.

The Princeton years are telling. He showed his fierce intensity, and he had to back off with the Board. Also, he faced a big ego of Andrew West and lost. But he also made positive changes for Princeton, too.

I started reading this biography with only a couple of main points of knowledge about Woodrow Wilson. I knew he was President during World War I, and had a severe stroke and was accused of having his wife run the country, an overwhelming and seeming majority opinion from my parents’ generation.
I gained quite an education about Wilson in this biography. I didn’t realize all he had done as President of Princeton. I was surprised that he brought core curriculum, graduate school on campus, and having research professors teach classes; I thought Princeton already operated with these important requirements. I also didn’t know he was married twice, and was involved in a possible affair during his first marriage. Wilson lived in his own world; I find his success with women hard for me to understand. He appeared loyal, but his mind and philosophy were in the previous decades, and both wives appeared to be confident women of their generation.
Wilson reminds me of a director I once had; he was a great development man – came up with great ideas for good programs. But he had no conception of how to initiate and run any of these programs. Wilson was very similar. Yes, he came up with good ideas and had success in moving a lot of them through at Princeton, and as President. He was willing and able to explain anything. But his stubbornness and self-righteousness put a harsh aspect to his successes.
This biography covered Wilson’s entire life in an easy-to-read style. Details were given clearly and precisely. I now have a great beginning about Wilson and would like to read more about him.

Great review Virginia and I liked your analogy.

Thank you for your thoughts, Virginia. I'm glad you enjoyed the book.

I think the stroke just crystallized his stubbornness and righteousness.