Books on the Nightstand discussion

I know many of you are concerned at what this will mean.
Here are my thoughts, as they relate to BOTNS...

https://plus.google.com/1078040623077...

I asked Riffle for an invite back in January. They sent me an email saying my invite would be processed, but nothing since.

Thanks, Ann! I appreciate your viewpoint (and share a lot of it).

also, if you get me drunk enough at Booktopia, I'll give you the uncensored version...

I'd like to be there for that.

Some good news in my local community. Changing Hands, an indie bookstore that has been in Tempe, AZ since 1974 is opening a second location in Phoenix. Probably no coincidence that this follows quickly on the heels of Amazon being required to collect sales tax on sales in Arizona. There are still some indies that seem to be thriving despite the challenges with Amazon.
The thing that worries me most about the Amazon takeover of Goodreads is the possibility that we will no longer have access to reliable reviews by our peers. I can't tell you how disgusted I was when I learned that Amazon posts fake reviews.
As much as I hate to say so, I think we have to realize that Amazon intends to take over not just bookselling, but the entire retail world. They also just acquired my favorite shoe shopping site, Zappos.com.

I've been on cloud 9 since they confirmed they are opening the new locatio. Phoenix is definitely a desert as far as bookstores go and this one will fill a void.

Eric wrote: "I'd like to be there for that."

Me too! LOL!

I really like your post, Ann. I myself had a knee jerk reaction when I heard about this merger. I frankly hadn't noticed a few of the things you mentioned (cataloguing?), so hopefully many if not all of the changes will be lost on me once this takes effect. In the meantime, I plan on taking a chill pill and relaxing with a martini because frankly, in the scheme of things, this isn't the worst thing that can happen in my life. And that is not to belittle those who are upset about this.

Reposting this from the other discussion-

FYI, not sure if people know about this- if you don't like the idea of other sites being given access to and/or displaying your reviews, there's a box that you need to uncheck in your profile. If you navigate to My Account, click on the "settings" tab. Under Privacy, there's a box marked "allow partners of Goodreads to display my reviews," which you might want to uncheck.

Being in a relatively isolated area, I sort of take dealing with big box retailers like Amazon and Wal Mart for granted. Around here, the other options are limited, if not nonexistent. I have, however, ordered books from Northshire in the past year, because I love the store and want to throw some support to it, even though the deep discounts available from Amazon are easier on my wallet.

I'd like to play devil's advocate from my own personal perspective as a book lover and consumer. As with all such announcements, there is a lot of immediate, very legitimate concern. Otis Chandler, a founder of Goodreads, did say in the NYT that "his management team would remain in place to guard the reviewing process that had made the site attractive to its 16 million members."“Amazon has a real history of building independent brands and running them as independent companies,” he said in a phone interview. Would Goodreads, who prides itself on its independence have agreed to being purchased by amazon if it was really concerned about its future? We need to have been in the boardroom to hear the discussions. We are at a tipping point with a fast changing landscape, there is some bad and some good that will come out of it as things shake down into the new normal.

Personally, I'm a heavy amazon user, not only for books, but for general merchandise. Even though I live in Orange County, CA, we have no good indy bookstore. (one reason I love going to Booktopias!) Whenever I go to the small one in my town, it rarely has the books I'm looking for, its staff is not that knowledgeable and ordering through the store then requires yet another trip to pick it up, dealing with bad traffic and bad parking. My local library doesn't carry the latest books. My local B & N is getting worse and worse--expanding toys and merchandise and shrinking the number of staff and books it carries. For these reasons, I buy most of my books from amazon, either e-books or hard copies. Quite frankly, my book buying budget and my reading has gone way up since shifting more and more to amazon, so in some sense, I am contributing more to authors--and publishers-- than I ever did when I just shopped locally. I am also an early adaptor of Kindle and love that format since it gives me easy access to an entire universe of reading.
Amazon has been making positive contributions in some other ways as well. I enjoy Kindle Singles, a format that gives authors a chance to publish essays and articles that are longer than magazine articles, but shorter than books. This publishing oppty is not available to authors elsewhere. Amazon has also provided a platform for authors to self publish, allowing them to reap a much larger royalty than is typical.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ann!

Someone mentioned on the other thread that Amazon also owns IMDB, and they haven't changed it very much. I'll just hope that Amazon recognizes that goodreads is pretty unique (like IMDB) and maybe they won't meddle with a good thing.

While I do find it distressing to think that online companies are able to collect more and more information about me, I kind of take comfort in knowing that they don't really care about me as a person. I'm just a statistic, and the sheer number of people being tracked lends me some anonymity. I know that this opinion is probably incredibly naive...

I tend to read books mostly from the library, and the books I buy come from used book sales or from Amazon. I'd love to support indies, but I can't afford to pay full price for much of anything these days.

Katie, your second paragraph describes my situation in every respect.

Personally I prefer Librarything for book cataloguing, to read lists etc - pity they don't have the iPhone app like goodreads.

Benefits of Goodreads as i see it are the groups, many of which don't reside on Librarything

probably will still stay here group wise but my books will be deleted - because Goodreads have basically sold my data to Amazon - which is the downside for using a free service :)

What's the concern of having Amazon have your data? It was all pretty much public anyway once you put it on the Internet.

Amazon owns a bit of Librarything...I've read online that it's 40% (http://www.abebooks.com/docs/CompanyI...).

I love Goodreads as a place to catalog my books, socialize in the groups, and read reviews. I know the reviews on Goodreads aren't perfect but I trust them more than the reviews on Amazon. I just hope this will help Goodreads improve some of the issues on the site and that it doesn't become a platform that mainly caters to Kindle users.

Goodreads is a business and businesses are around to make money. I hope the advertising on Goodreads doesn't become pervasive. Right now, I don't really notice the ads that come up and I don't notice the "buy" buttons.

I love Goodreads so I hope it doesn't change that much and the changes are things I can live with. I assume Amazon already knows what's on my book shelf. That may be naive. It's happens more often than not.

Eric wrote: "I asked Riffle for an invite back in January. They sent me an email saying my invite would be processed, but nothing since."

I did too! I completely forgot about Riffle.

For those of you who have no indie bookstores near you....I have to ask which came first, the coming of Amazon or the dying out of indie bookstores. Indie bookstores bring a level of personalized service that Amazon will never be able to duplicate. I have a love/hate relationship with Amazon but I have a feeling that if they were my only shopping option it would quickly turn to just hate.

Who's collecting to wine Ann for the real story...

18> Have to agree Janet, I only use Amazon for E-readers ( but use Book depository uk for books I can't find at my indie store) ... so wish we had a indie store which sold SF ..they are a very rare beast

15 - Guess its because stupidly I prefer a community of readers not backed by someone with motives to a) unrelentingly mine my data and b) sell me stuff."

if given the option how many of us would have been prepared to pay a subscription ...

I hardly use Amazon at all because their international shipping charges are atrocious and until recently they tried to charge me $2 extra for every e-book because I'm an 'international'.
I was most concerned when they took over The Book Depository but so far it seems almost unchanged. Hopefully the same will be true of Goodreads.

I can understand how we all want independence but bandwidth and time spent coding must be paid for somehow.
I can't afford a subscription so am willing to pay with some data.
And people are always trying to sell me stuff, having a limited budget makes it very easy for me to say 'No thanks'.

I do wonder if all the reviews scandal has led Amazon to Goodreads as a source of unbiased, credible reviews.

Esther wrote: "I hardly use Amazon at all because their international shipping charges are atrocious and until recently they tried to charge me $2 extra for every e-book because I'm an 'international'.
I was most..."

That's an interesting point Esther. I guess we have to give Amazon the benefit of the doubt that they want what we've got rather than they want to change it.

Janet wrote: "For those of you who have no indie bookstores near you....I have to ask which came first, the coming of Amazon or the dying out of indie bookstores. Indie bookstores bring a level of personalized ..."

I am very fortunate to live near Washington DC which as a very strong independent bookstore Politics and Prose. However, in the 20 years I have lived in the area, I have seen almost every other independent bookstore, including a local chain, close.
I do shop on Amazon, but try to spread my online buying around to Alibris, Powells, ABE etc. I also use The Book Depository in the UK. BUT first I tend to check Kennys in Galway Ireland my link text which has free shipping. I use them even when the book is a couple of dollars more as they are an independent bookshop.

Janet wrote: "For those of you who have no indie bookstores near you....I have to ask which came first, the coming of Amazon or the dying out of indie bookstores."

In our area the indie bookstores (and the other chains) started closing en masse when Chapters moved in, when Amazon was still pretty much a blip on the horizon. We've only got one independent left in our city, and it's survived as much because it's also a cafe/cinema/bar as because it's a great bookstore.

i love Kenny's, and also Politics & Prose.

interestingly, ABE Books and Book Depository are both owned by Amazon.

I just read in this forum about the Book Depository but didn't know about ABE. Fewer and fewer choices (:

Thanks Ann, for getting the conversation going. It doesn't seem like there are any easy answers. I love having a Goodreads community to share thoughts on books, as most of my friends are not as obsessive as me.
I appreciate the list of various ways people use Goodreads.There are also many ways I use Amazon. I have been able to find, and order out of print books, and other items from Amazon partners(smaller, independent stores) that normally would not be accessible in my area. Not being able to drive, I also depend on internet shopping. Perhaps the biggest thing Amazon has done, for me, is the Kindle. I have Bad vision, and for the first time in thirty years, I have virtually unlimited access to reading through the Kindles font size function. Traditional large print books are often too expensive, the type not large enough, and cover a limited range of genres and authors.
However, I did cringe when I heard the news of the purchase. My town had a small bookstore for 75 years that was forced to close due to internet sales, and Barnes & Noble moving into town. Course after they closed, Barnes & Noble moved out. Now Amazon is accused of pushing B&N out. Sometimes I don't know what to think. I love independent bookstores and their wonderful personalities, I even operated one for some years, but have no access to one locally. I also think, in my area, not enough people could sustain one.
As for Goodreads, I am just going to wait and see.

My small town had an independent bookstore until about 2 years ago. The bookstore had operated for 25 years (started in downtown closed in a shopping center). It specifically closed because the owner also worked in her husband's accounting office and grew weary of two jobs. She tried to sell it, but it didn't happen.

The next town south is at least twice as large as mine, has a mall and had both a B. Dalton's and a Walden's that are now gone.

Now, I have to drive to either Columbus or Dayton to find any bookstore. There is a fantastic independent bookstore in south of Dayton, but it takes more than an hour to get there.

All the closings have been since Amazon, but I can't connect the dots to finger Amazon, even if I'd like to.

I'm a privacy and online security paranoid, about a pixel away from going off-the-grid completely so news of AMZN devouring another site is upsetting. I've eliminated all except the most basic information from my goodreads profile and will be exporting my reviews and lists this weekend. I'll be gradually weaning myself away from groups and in the interim, stop linking titles, covers and authors in my comments. I love the services that AMZN, APPL, google, FB and twitter provide, but deplore the hidden costs of data mining my person. It seems that we are constantly being asked to transfer our lives online, onto a cloud, whatever... in exchange for being tagged to bits! It's unnerving to know that it's very easy for ***anybody*** to know where we are, what we're eating, who we're with, what we're doing, what we're watching, what we're listening to and, more salient to this thread, what we're reading. We're being told that this is all to make our shopping lives easier. Really? Perhaps. Regardless, I'm affronted enough by the near constant targeting to minimize my online info. As for the BOTNS group in particular, I will continue to hang in there until the end of June at the very least. Hopefully by then, an alternative will have appeared :-)

Barbara wrote: "Janet wrote: "For those of you who have no indie bookstores near you....I have to ask which came first, the coming of Amazon or the dying out of indie bookstores. Indie bookstores bring a level of..."

I am extremely fortunate to have four outstanding independent bookstores near me. Quail Ridge in Raleigh, Flyleaf here in Chapel Hill, The Regulator in Durham and McIntyre's in Pittsboro. All of them have interesting author readings and add real value to the community. In addition both UNC Chapel Hill and Duke often have literary programs open to the public.

Ann wrote: "also, if you get me drunk enough at Booktopia, I'll give you the uncensored version..."
OK I'm up for this!! N

I buy most of my Danish books in local bookstores, but the English/American/Australian books I want to read aren't usually available here, so I get them from Persephone Books or Amazon.co.uk.

I guess being a Dane, I don't really bother about the data sharing etc. We all have a unique social security number where EVERYTHING school/medical history/family/tax/legal stuff/credit is registered, and available to the relevant public institutions.
I don't however put very private stuff online, and I don't use Facebook for logging into other sites, but keep separate passwords for everything that can access paypal/credit cards.

I've found the amazon reviews to be worthless, so I hope they don't change the Goodreads review system.

I use Librarything for cataloging my personal library and only started using Goodreads because I listened to Books on the Nightstand. To get news about the Booktopia events I had to join Goodreads. (Guess that is a backwards way of joining.) My current use of Goodreads is very limited and mostly centers around stuff related to Books on the Nightstand.

I know that Librarything is partly owned by Amazon and Baker & Taylor. However, Tim, the founder, is still involved in the daily operations. I see him at the ALA conferences and he once told me that in order to expand LT he needed more capitol. Selling part of it provided that capitol and it did allow LT to grow. He still owns enough of LT that he makes a difference. If you feel strongly about what has happened to Goodreads I can recommend LT. I use it and am happy with it. It is different than Goodreads, but still fills the same functions.

I don't buy books from Amazon. I use Alibris for that. That source started out as a service for libraries looking for out-of-print or obscure and rare items. The prices are just as good as Amazon and the service is just as timely. I don't know how they are with shipping outside of the US. I also don't know if ALibris is owned by anybody else, but wouldn't be surprised if it was. This is the day of consolidation and vertical as well as horizontal integration so I am rather surprised when any company in the publishing industry is not owned by one conglomerate or another.

I don't like the Amazon reviews either and don't use them. I basically use Amazon when I need a giant database for books and that is about all.

I like local bookstores as much as I like locally owned coffee shops. I try to patronize these places whenever possible and only use Starbucks when I travel. The city in which I live does not have a locally owned bookstore. My choice is either Barnes & Noble or a regional chain Books-A-Million. Since I live 4 blocks from the Barnes & Noble I go there when I need free wireless since I don't have that at home.

This discussion might be a good topic for one of the Booktopia events. Tim, from Librarything lives and works in Maine so would be close to Manchester. Amazon is headquartered in Seattle so somebody from there might be willing to go to Bellingham. But then again, maybe not. They might be afraid that they would get egged by irate book lovers.

In the end, none of us may like it that Amazon has such a huge footprint, but if we like what Goodreads and Librarything do for us we may not have much choice but to use them.

Does anybody know anything about Shelfari? I haven't checked on it in a long time.

Benita wrote: "Does anybody know anything about Shelfari? I haven't checked on it in a long time. "

Shelfari is 100% owned by AMZN and has integrated the login platform from the AMZN accounts. This means that whatever your username and password are on your AMZN account, this is what is to be used for your Shelfari account. Ditto with audible.com.

From what I understand, AMZN's stake in LT is rather diluted as it's second or maybe even third tier through B&T and ABE books, but I may not understand the ownership chain clearly.

Tanya/dog eared copy wrote: "Benita wrote: "Does anybody know anything about Shelfari? I haven't checked on it in a long time. "

Shelfari is 100% owned by AMZN and has integrated the login platform from the AMZN accounts. Thi..."

I recently signed up for Shelfari & I had to put in a user name & password-had nothing to do with my amazon account ...

Becky wrote: "I recently signed up for Shelfari & I had to put in a user name & password-had nothing to do with my amazon account ..."

That's weird. When I just went over there, "to sign up," it gave me a prompt to "Sign in using my Amazon.com" account and, in fact, pre-populated my fields. Then there's a list of five bullet points about using the Amazon sign-in. Since I declined to go through with the process though, I don't know what happens when you don't use your AMZN username/password to open a Shelfari account. I do know though that with audible, despite having different usernames/emails and passwords, I got switched over to my AMZN account username/e-mail & password. :-/

I knew about Shelfari and Amazon but I was unaware that Amazon having anything to do with LT which was the the first site that I was attracted to.Ahhhhhh. What a bad dream!

I know Amazon is trying to take over the world, but I just drove 25 minutes to my closest book store and paid $35 for the paperback boxed set of Game of Thrones. Amazon sells it for $19 with free shipping for Prime members. I feel ripped off, not warm and fuzzy from my visit to a real book store.

Gail, I now you know this, but I feel the need to say it in case others don't. It's not a case of bookstores jacking up the prices, but other retailers marking them down at deep discounts.

Almost all books have prices that are suggested by the publisher, printed on the jackets, and the prices that bookstores pay are a percentage based on that price. Because of this, books are often used by large retailers as a loss-leader. In many cases, some large retailers even choose to sell the books for less than they pay for them, and take a loss. Retailers who make money selling other items (televisions, diapers, etc), can afford to discount books as a loss leader. Sometimes they mark up other items to make up for the book discount.

Most independent bookstore cannot afford to sell the books for deep discounts. In some cases, books on the internet are being sold for less money than the independent bookstore pay to purchase them. Most profitable bookstores run on profit margins of 2-5%. Rent, salaries, taxes, etc. eat up most of the profit.

I stay out of pricing discussions as a rule -- I certainly understand the need to budget and be smart with money. But I don't want anyone to think they are getting "ripped off" by a bookstore. Bookstores can't afford to discount, and if you can't afford to shop there, that's fine, but please know that independent bookstores are not trying to get away with anything.

thanks for hearing me out.

Good to know Ann. Thanks for the clarification.

Can someone help me understand the impact to Goodreads? If Amazon owns Shelfari, why not improve Shelfari instead of taking over both?

Tina Shelfari is littl

Tina I believe GR has 10 to 12 million users.I understand that this deal has been in the works for three or four years.

Thanks, Gerald.

Tina wrote: "Can someone help me understand the impact to Goodreads? If Amazon owns Shelfari, why not improve Shelfari instead of taking over both?"

My take on it is that the AMZN acquisition of goodreads was not about acquiring a social reading platform so much as it was about the acquisition of valuable data for marketing purposes. The rumor I heard was that the deal was for US$150 million for the information on 16 million accounts (active and inactive.) That works out to be about $9.37 per account (This is an amazing deal for AMZN!) This data is mined for aggregate and individual (micro-targeting) marketing purposes. AMZN then places a "steer" in the buying options that direct you to their site. Even if you choose to buy through another vendor from this site, AMZN still gets a percentage from the redirect. Your cookies also become part of this matrix so that you when you travel to another site altogether, an ad will appear that increasingly be more likely to feature the items that you just looked at or browsed, put on your TBR self... again the redirect back to an AMZN site. So yeah, I think it's really about data, marketing and sales.

I finally figured out how to transfer my Goodreads data (1331 books)to Library Thing in one fell swoop, which saved a lot of time. I had been doing it book by book.

Ann: Thanks for the information. I do understand loss leaders and I guess Amazon is going in for the kill on big titles like Game of Thrones...all part of their plan in taking over the world!

Eric wrote: "I finally figured out how to transfer my Goodreads data (1331 books)to Library Thing in one fell swoop, which saved a lot of time. I had been doing it book by book."


I figured out the mass export/import feature; but I noticed that a lot of data did not transfer correctly (e.g. narrators in the author fields, no start dates...); and 32 of my books didn't make it over at all. Some other books lost their covers! It looks like there is a fair amount of manual data entry tweaking that will have to happen. I figure I'll make corrections as the need arises. In the meantime, I have my export csv saved as a backup :-)

P.S. 969 of my books made the crossing!

Eric wrote: "I finally figured out how to transfer my Goodreads data (1331 books)to Library Thing in one fell swoop, which saved a lot of time. I had been doing it book by book."

How did you do that, Eric? I've been fiddling around, trying to figure it out, without success.