Rothfussians discussion

When I read the books, Elodin is one of most enigmatic character. And I'm always asking myself, how much Elodin really knows? About names, how much names? He was in the highest position in University in the past. How great is his power? What he did in the past? Who was his master?

Elodin is such a great character. He seems to have a plethora of knowledge of the 4Cs. We'll definitely find out much more about him in DoS

Does anyone remember the scene where every master votes against Kvothe, and when lastly Elodin votes in favor of him, everybody changes their vote except Hemme? I believe it was on the expulsion matter. It's been too long, I only read it once and mostly through the night with my mind half asleep, but that gave me goose bumps as it felt such a great testament to his power and influence.

@marcel yes !!!! Soh much confident and influence sorround him. This part shows how much his oppinion is worthfully. Such a badass. I like when he is with kvothe in the bridge of stones. And he talks something about the name of the wind. Before kvothe leave the university. I feel the kindness of elodin. Some way, for me, its like elodin has a world wich only he can see. Full of names and great things. And its kind of solitary, alone. He cant discuss about it with ppl, because they just dont understand naming and shapping. I think he dedicates the most to kote learn, and furter rhey can share the same world. Its like he is waiting alone for his sucessor to come and see the world like he sees

Hmm, what is shaping really? And do we have any hints suggesting that Elodin is a shaper? I would be careful to make the distinction between knowing what shaping is, recognizing it, and really performing it.

We know roughly what naming is, but is a more complex manipulation of, say, the wind called shaping? For example, shaping a ring of air on your finger?

Or does shaping mean to change the nature of things, at some level, by giving them another name? For example, changing your own name. Did Kvothe do something like this to himself? (Did he do it to Auri? I don't want to digress, but it recently occurred to me that in the encounter between Elodin, Auri and Kvothe, Elodin is constantly taken aback by Auri's behavior, like she's this changed creature, as opposed to just new to him. And in the end, when Elodin finds out Kvothe named her and inquires about the name:

She gave Elodin a serious look. “If your name is getting too heavy, you should have Kvothe give you a new one.” Elodin nodded again and took a bite of his cinnas. As he chewed, he turned to look at me. By the light of the moon, I saw his eyes. They were cool, thoughtful, and perfectly, utterly sane.

Could this be more than just Kvothe's trivial knack for names that sparked Elodin's interest? Elodin then invites him to his class and gets him access to the Stacks.)

These two theories of what shaping could be seem different to me, and I haven't seen any evidence that Elodin can perform either.
Well, perhaps the only tangible thing is if you buy in the theory that rings on the right hand are for shapers, the left hand for namers, and when Fela extends her right hand first, Elodin shakes his head and firmly says, in second person as opposed to first person: “The right means something else entirely. None of you are anywhere near ready for that.”

We dont have proofs. But i really think Elodin is a main character in the Naming and far more complicated magics. Other professors deal with him with respect, and some fear can be sense.

Okay super random, but I think it would be cool if Elodin's "master" who taught him like Abenthy taught Kvothe was Skarpi.

I know that's kinda weird, but there is some support he practices naming and is likely good at it.

Also I kinda like that idea Marcel. I always thought Elodin asked him to join his class because he saw how Kvothe would use naming with or without instruction. Without instruction he would never know how to control his power and that could potentially be a lot worse than if he did.

My pet theory on why this incident made Elodin invite Kvothe to the class:

(a) Kvothe is finally showing the patience and restraint in getting to know Auri that he is usually lacking. I think Elodin thought much like Abenthy did, when he asked about the danger that someone thoughtless could do. Before this, Elodin thought Kvothe was too thoughtless to learn naming.


(b) "Why Auri?" asks Elodin. Kvothe replies that it means "sunny", and Elodin asks in what language. Kvothe has no idea. My guess is that Elodin knows Auri's real name and Kvothe came *very* close to giving her her actual name. Princess Ariel, maybe? This would show Elodin how much naming talent Kvothe has, since Elodin says that knowing a person's name is much more difficult than knowing the name of a thing. Being able to name a person would require a much greater skill than calling the name of the wind in anger.

Elodin asks in what language. Kvothe has no idea.

Actually he thinks it's in siaru, but either way, he's wrong. LOL. Not sure how much it matters, though I think it's worth noting since he incorrectly names the horse (Keth-Selhan, One Sock) also in Siaru.

He obviously sucks at this language LOL.

Skarpi tutoring Elodin could be a nice touch, and a chance to learn more about both of them. I like that.

Back to Elodin's powers... so he did have a stellar record and was the youngest at achieving some great things, like becoming a chancellor. Then something happened and he was locked up in Haven. He hated that place, and he was in there for 2 years until he called out the name of the stone, breaking the wall and getting out. Did it take him 2 years to learn the name of the stone? It is specified that the room prevented him from calling out the name of the wind (the room was closed up, and the air in it was different). Presumably, naming the wind was the only prevention the room had in terms of naming things. Did Elodin only know the name of the wind at that point in time?

So how much does he really know now? Easily calling out the name of a few things is by no means an easy feat, and would make him more powerful than the rest of the masters, but is there anything more than that?

Do we know what exactly happened after Kvothe called the wind and harmed Ambrose, and then Elodin had to bring him back to his feet by whispering something? Did he call out Kvothe's true name? Calling out the name of a living sentient being is much more different and complicated, as he pointed out to Kvothe when the Felurian encounter was described to him. And this would be, perhaps, the only proof Elodin could be this seriously powerful guy. [EDIT] But more powerful than Kvothe?

I forgot he thought it was Siaru :) I think in both of these cases though, he names the thing the correct name (or almost correct) without knowing it. He can name them because he understands them. His brain just fills it in as Siaru; it's not just him making a mistake in the language. Like when he hears the master sympathist call fire "Fire", his mind just filled in a word he recognized.

Marcel wrote: "Do we know what exactly happened after Kvothe called the wind and harmed Ambrose, and then Elodin had to bring him back to his feet by whispering something? "

Exactly? No.

The most likely series of events is that Elodin whispered Kvothe’s name to calm his swirling mind. Then he made Kvothe say the name of the wind, aerlevsedi, to finish the job.

I reckon he’s capable of finding any name he needs to. He uses them sparingly, only as needed. That's sort of what it looks like he's doing anyway.

thistlepong wrote: "I reckon he’s capable of finding any name he needs to"

I always had this feeling too.

Tablorian the Great = Elodin
Thoughts?

I think it is very unlikely. I believe Elodin is twelve when he starts at the University and everyone sees him grow up. I suppose you could make the case that Tabolin's magic is all powerful and he can disguise his age but that's really not consistent with the way magic is presented in the book.

Manda wrote: "I think it is very unlikely. I believe Elodin is twelve when he starts at the University and everyone sees him grow up. I suppose you could make the case that Tabolin's magic is all powerful and he..."

As for Taborlin = Elodin, Elodin has CLEARLY been in the fae, so who knows how old he really is? He talks often about what the University was like when it was founded. And many of Taborlin's storys seem to relate to Elodin in some way, and many of Taborlin's magic powers in the story can be attributed to Elodin's mad skillz at naming, and the rest can go to the story only being based on Elodin's adventures.

Also, Fluerian knows nothing of Taborlin when Kvothe mentions him, because i think she only knows him as Elodin.

I would put money on Auri being a Yllish word. Yll seems like it will play a large roll in the 3rd book and I have a feeling it will also be tied to the new magic we will get. Maybe Auri or Elodin will bring this new Magic to light for Kvothe.

My point is that the Masters at the University knew Elodin as a youngster. He didn't come to them as an older teen like most students. They watched him grow up. Elodin tells Kvothe his first experience with naming was when he got really mad at Elxa Dal for refusing to teach him advanced bindings. So he was definitely a student during Dal's time. Much of Elodin's life is documented at the University. He spent time there as a student, as Chancellor, and in Haven. He probably slipped off for a while here and there because he seems well-traveled. But he is not older than Dal unless he spent time in the Fae before coming to the University. And he was just a boy then.

Unless shaping can somehow make you younger. Shaping is still a bit of a mystery so I suppose that's possible. But if Elodin was already such an accomplished shaper, why did he come to the University and pretend to learn naming there? To teach? To spy? To get access to the four plate door? What's your theory?

Manda wrote: "My point is that the Masters at the University knew Elodin as a youngster. He didn't come to them as an older teen like most students. They watched him grow up. Elodin tells Kvothe his first experi..."

You make good points, the whole Elodin=Taborlin thing was a bit of a stretch.

Moving away from that, what do you think made Elodin crack? Did he go into the fae? Did he talk to the Cthaeh? Did he eat the little cheese, INCLUDING THE RIND?!?!?!?!? lol

He went through the 4 plate door and cracked I think. When he speaks about the door he hints at it. I remember standing in front of the door, wondering. This seems to say he no longer wonders because he made his way in while he was the chancellor. Just my theory at least.

Maybe it's the door of madness? Hence the crockery being so large and so close. I saw this Theory somewhere on this board and thought it had some merit

On Elodin being Taborlin - What Manda said. It wouldn't make much sense considering his history at the university. It's not completely ridiculous that he fashions his stories to fit in the mold of Taborlin, since he is a well known and respected heroic figure in the world, it actually shows how he is still a bit insane, in my opinion. Likely Elodin had an interest in Taborlin stories and when he cracked things started getting messed around in his head.

I used to know this crazy chick who would tell her life stories in relation to Disney Princesses almost just the way Elodin does, minus the coherency and life lessons - you know, since she was actually totally nuts.

As for why he cracked, I like Brandon's suggestion, thats cool. I also think its possible he may have pushed a bit hard on naming when he wasn't fully ready or maybe he gave shaping a shot and got all messed up from it.

I don't think Elodin is cracked at all. I think everyone else just doesn't understand what he is doing, and he can't be bothered to stop and explain it to them, because he knows they wouldn't understand anyway.

Servius Heiner wrote: "I don't think Elodin is cracked at all. I think everyone else just doesn't understand what he is doing, and he can't be bothered to stop and explain it to them, because he knows they wouldn't under..."

I think the argument isn't so much that he's crazy now, but that there was a time in the past when he definitely was which got him thrown into the rookery. Likely it would have happened to Kvothe after calling the wind on Ambrose if Elodin hadn't been around to call him back. Under this theory, Elodin called the name of something, went nuts, and nobody was able to assist him and it took his mind 3 years or so find it's way back.

Agreed. But people still think he is cracked. I disagree. He isn't cracked he just sees things differently. He is thinking on a different level now. Crazy is crazy, he isn’t crazy- I don’t think he ever was. More like in shock. It is understandable that people call it cracking or crazy but that isn’t really what happened to Kvothe or Elodin. Kvothe was numb, drifting. Elodion worked his way out on his own too. Just because they sent him to the rookery doesn’t mean he was really crazy. I think it is very obvious that the University isn’t the well of knowledge kvotthe paints it as, in the beginning. Every time something uncomfortable with a someone at the university arises their auto knee jerk response is to send them to the rookery. The folks in the Rookery, Elodin takes Kvothe to see? Are raving lunatics. Obviously they couldn’t handle it. That Elodin can’t just say a name and still their minds is the difference. They went crazy.

Servius Heiner wrote: "Just because they sent him to the rookery doesn’t mean he was really crazy."

That's kind of splitting hairs. Take Kvothe's second opportunity to get sent to Haven after being dosed with plum bob. If he'd gone to the Medica and started shouting and threatening folks, there would have been no practical difference between "crazy" and "let's make sure he can't murder anybody."

Same's true for Elodin. He was Chancellor when they had to carry him to Haven. You have the most accomplished namer in living memory, a prodigy that succeeded, and suddenly he goes catatonic, muttering Tehlu-knows-what. You put him away to protect others. If he manages to escape after a couple years, you basically hope his eccentricities are only that.

I don't know if they're just eccentricities. Maybe to become a powerful namer, or - dare I say - shaper, maybe you have to travel through the door of madness. Maybe Elodin is just seen as different ("cracked") because no one else is as powerful as he is? I mean, Kvothe only got to where he is by passing through the door of forgetting after his parents died. Maybe his next step is madness so his powers can grow again.

If you look at Lanre, who gained great powers, it seems like he did so after "passing" through the "door" of something. I mean, the dude died.

Iax, though....did he travel through a door? We know he went to Fae to see his buddy Cthaeh... Any other doors?

Is Elodin even a shaper? Thoughts? Any other shapers in the story? Felurian?

Maybe you do have to travel through some door. But I think we can rule out the door of Madness with Lanre, he becomes an extremely powerful namer (at the least) and we know he is definitively sane after our visit to Ademre. Lanre passed through the doors of death multiple times, but he didn't have power, so far as we know, until after he spoke with Ctheah and Lyra had fallen under some mysterious illness.
Which does suggest he passed into Fae, since Fae was being sealed off at this point from the Mortal World.

Maybe it's just the doors of stone that one passes through that changes there perception, I think this probably fits more what you were trying to suggest might have occured with Iax/Jax.

Iax wouldn't have had to go to Fae to speak with the Ctheah from what I understand. Iax helped create Fae so he was there all along. Which, in my mind, suggests he either spoke with Ctheah before he created Fae in the mortal world or Ctheah went to Iax after the fact.
In the story of Jax, I always thought that the man he meets on the Mtn who teaches him to open the box that makes the house, was actually a reference to Ctheah. Though I admit I haven't put a lot of effort into researching that line of inquiry.

Tenth time re-reading WMF, but first time since discovering this forum. I was overwhelmed with how many times Pat points out the similarities between Elodin & Felurian (several) versus the one time he points out a similarity between Elodin & and Magwyn (the Adem namer)....later, we see Elodin recognize Kvothe's shaed, and use a smattering of Adem handtalk.
I wasn't originally a fan of the 'circular' theory, that the storyline repeats itself several times unsuccessfully, and maybe Kvothe is just another repeater in a bigger storyline (poor explanation, sorry). However, this has made me wonder quite a bit more about Elodin. We know he has been at the University since he was 14 (same as K, which in itself is remarkable...)...Hmph.

I wouldn't say Elodin 'CLEARLY' has been to the Fae as 'Kvothe' suggested. I think that's a dangerous thing to say when Rothfuss is behind the wheel! He does seem to know or have experienced something significant. I automatically assumed he went to the Rookery as he learnt too many names and his mind was overwhelmed, he says your sleeping mind is infinitely more complex than the waking mind but is it crazy to assume it does in fact have a limit? I like the idea that he grew stronger after passing through a door of some kind .e.g. insanity.

Perhaps the doors of stone contained in the library have some ability to grant power?

It makes me question that if Elodin went insane from learning too many names. How did people from years ago when the world had more corners command so many names as it was more prevalent then.

I think an interesting thing to note is that we know for sure, Selitos, one of the single most powerful namers was not a mortal.

We can't say if Iax or Lyra was, but I think its a safe assumption that Aleph isn't either.

I have thought that maybe the problem all boils down too, mortals minds aren't meant to contain that sort of information. Like it quite literally blows there mind.

Obviously pure speculation but I've seen things like that toyed with in other storytelling mediums.

Yeah, that's a good point, there are a few ideas on that vein in other books.

For example, I just finished reading Lev Grossmans books and magic is real in those but it's kind of a cosmic afterthought of the gods creating the universe and it isn't meant for or safe for humans to use but of course they do.

If humans aren't supposed to be able to learn names, I wonder how they can? Kvothe doesn't seem to be losing it after using the wind's name anymore but maybe his moment was the first calling when he was catatonic.

I've thought, and this is complete speculation, that maybe people like Kvothe are better at naming because Kvothe is better at blocking things out of his mind.

We know that he closes his mind to his familys death and that he closes his mind to memories in Tarbean that are hurtful. Whenever he uses naming those memories start to flow back and he remembers stuff he doesn't mention previous to these encounters.

I thought this might have something to do with the doors of the mind, like when you use naming you open all the doors, but you have to have the will power to close them again. Kvothe has so much hurt behind his doors that closing them is easier for him than leaving them open....if that makes sense.
Where as some of these rich power hungery kids, they open the doors and they have a harder time closing them because they want everything thats behind them. There isn't enough emotional trauma for them to muster the will power to close them all again and then they lose it.


I don't know, obviously...but thats kinda how I've pictured it a bit.

I have feel the 4 plate door grants some kind of power. This power is something an arcanist has to be ready for prior to experiencing. Which I would assume is a full grasp of using the 'sleeping mind'. That is why the arcanum built such a large rookery. Elodin asked K why they built such a large one and when K starts to answer he immediately tells him he is wrong. Maybe it is something that shows you how to become a shaper, maybe something else, but I feel pretty confident it will play a part in how Elodin has such a grasp on naming. Since he as chancellor he would have access to info most don't, and I bet there was some clues as to how to open it.

Sorry for the wrong words being added in, phone likes to choose for itself sometimes.

To add. The early days of the arcanum was filled with namers so maybe at that time people were preparing their minds for the door and if someone went in unprepared they needed the rookery to put them in afterward. I assume it got out of hand and they stopped focusing on naming and getting into the 4 plate door. That is why it doesn't play much of a role in the classes currently. They can't completely ignore it but they might as well. Perhaps going through the door is how an arcanist can start earning rings for their right hand(I think it's the right one they are not ready for). Could be total BS but I feel the door and the rookery are tied somehow.

I don't know if this is what you were getting at (think it was). But I like the idea that the Rookery has a dual purpose in someone assisting you in the transition to namer.

Amber, very much enjoy that idea. Never considered it before! You should make a topic about it perhaps?

Yeah I was getting at it being needed as a precaution of the effects of becoming a namer in the early days of the university. But yes I would think it played a part in becoming a namer in those times. How big a part I couldn't say

I think that E only seems insane to others because that is how a namer sees the world. When K comes back after chasing the wind he said that E started to make more sense. Because K is now a namer and that is how namers see the world.

I think Elodin sees the world as Kvothe saw the world when he fought Felurian; just all the time. Kvothe describes the experience as one of complete clarity, he saw the names of all things, like he lifted a vale and saw the world as it looks to a namer/shaper.

I dont think Elodin is cracked, I just think that when you have this kind of clarity you may appear cracked to others. He knows that others can't relate to or understand how he sees the world so he doesn't bother to try and explain. In Kvothe I think he sees a peer, someone who has the potential to reach the same level as he has and it excites him. I think this realisation came on the roof with Auri; I think Auri's actual name IS Auri, Elodin knew this and was impressed that Kvothe saw this without any 'training' in naming.

I pretty much agree with that Jon, but I don't agree that Elodin was impressed or that he sees Kvothe as a peer. Peer by definition would imply that Kvothe was at equal standing with Elodin, but Elodin goes out of his way multiple times to show him that he isn't, and that he isn't even at the level he considers some, like Fela, by not inviting him to the class. I've thought for some time that Elodin realizes how powerful Kvothe could become, but doubts that he has the mental capacity to do so and remain good aligned since he lacks forsight.
I've always thought that Elodin accepted him into the class not because he was impressed but because he was concerned that Kvothe was using naming without any realization. I think Elodin would liked to have passed on teaching Kvothe naming, as is implied throughout the text, but in that instant, with Auri, he realized that Kvothe was using it with out even knowing it. In my opinion, it was then Elodin decided it would be more dangerous to leave him be. An uneducated namer could be far more dangerous and unwittingly.

I like that take, Amber. It does seem to be a common thread/theme with all the characters Kvothe interacts with. Including Felurian. He is clever, but thoughtless. Or rather he doesn't think things all the way through, he just sees the goal not what repercussions will resonate after X is achieved.

Yah, I agree with Amber here.

Above all else, Kvothe is arrogant. And he'll do something because he can rather than because it's right. I think Elodin agrees to tutor K reluctantly because he's worried about what he might do to himself if he's left alone, he did almost lose himself after calling the wind for the first time.

I think the best line that sums it up is when Elodin tells K he is too clever by half and K replies that most teachers like clever students.

And he'll do something because he can rather than because it's right.

Exactly! I agree with this so much. A perfect example is how Kvothe finds the incidents at Gibea moderately excusable simply because the advancements in medicines have now saved more people than were horribly tormented to discover those advancements. It's an arguable view point, but certainly no good character is going to torture people no matter the possible gains.

That's a good example. For some reason, the first thing that came to my mind was him sneaking into the Archives when he had been banned. He didn't care about damaging the books or consequences, he just needed to get in.

Oh Snap, that's another good example actually. Spot on.

I also agree with Amber and the reaction to the Gibea incident is one that really made me examine Kvothe;s character. As I remember, he doesn't even consider that poor people were used in order to better the lives of rich (which I think he would at least do because as a former orphaned street kid he and his peers would have been prime picking for experiments that resulted in advancements they would be too poor to pay for).

I think that Elodin's best lesson came during the burning incident. That is one brilliant way to teach someone the importance of asking the right questions before hand. Somehow, I still don't think Kvothe gets it though. I have a feeling that even when Elodin's actions come across as not sane, he is conveying to people exactly what they need to know. I do wonder to what degree he knows how his actions come across and if he knows better way of conveying his meanings, or if he deliberately conveys them in a way that immediate understanding might be sacrificed but eventually the lesson will carry more weight.

I'd be quite interested for an Elodin POV just to see why he does some of the things he does. For example, why did Fela have to put mud in her shoes and walk around a quarry in the middle of the night? I'd also be interested in hearing how Fela first called the name of Stone.

Thats a good idea. But this is from Kvothes POV, so he wont know what Elodin is thinking. But perhaps in DOS we will learn.

Erm...I think he meant as another whole different story. LOL.

Ohhh... that would be cool