Madam, want to talk about author Mary Stewart? discussion

This was so good that I couldn't put it down! I zoomed through it.

Don't read this until you are finished. (view spoiler)[The things he said to me then, in the straw of the dusty stable, with the smells of meal, and the sweating horse, all around us, and the damp of the gatehouse cellars still on his coat, and Con's body lying there in his own bright blood under the raw electric light, were the sort of thing that one only says when one's controls have been violently lifted. They are not for telling, of even for remembering in daylight. (hide spoiler)]

Don't read this until you finish, either.

(view spoiler)[Because it's not too long since I read this before, I could remember the plot and so really appreciated the way in which the truth is there, but camouflaged. For example, at the beginning she's Eve dreaming about Adam. She hears that Adam is back just as she's meeting the mare and the yearling, and her distress is taken as a reaction to the horses.

But what I'm not sure about is why she wanted to avoid Adam, even when she knew that Crystal was dead. Was it "just" because he hadn't answered her letter, and had instead left the Hall with no message to her at all? (hide spoiler)]

Kim had (view spoiler)[guessed that Mary was Annabel, and we discussed her reaction to the horses -- real distress. It still seems odd she would push the horse way, even if hearing Adam mentioned distressed her. (hide spoiler)]

Several times she claims that she is not upset at whatever the people she is with suppose she is upset about, so it does mask her real fear, or the truth behind the reaction. I think on a second read it might be easier to see that the truth is out there, in plain sight, but then obscured by our own take on what we observe, aided by the others in the scene.

As for Adam, (view spoiler)[was she really still nursing a grudge, fueled by the thought that he had abandoned her? I was surprised by how Mary Grey reacted so "violently/angrily" at meeting him, and the place she chose for the meeting. It almost tipped me off to the truth. Also, did she feel guilt all these years later at harming his wife? I didn't quite by that! (hide spoiler)]

Jeannette wrote: "Kim had [spoilers removed]

Several times she claims that she is not upset at whatever the people she is with suppose she is upset about, so it does mask her real fear, or the truth behind the reac..."

The more I read it the more I realise how clever it is, given that it's written in the first person. As to your points: (view spoiler)[I think that she was too distracted to concentrate on the horses. Plus, she could hear Con's footsteps and couldn't risk his seeing her use her magic on them. Pushing a horse's head away is not an aggressive act to a horse. (hide spoiler)]

As for Adam, (view spoiler)[I didn't see it as "nursing a grudge". I think she was devastated when he didn't reply to her letter, and thought it meant that he didn't love her after all (or not as much as she loved him). She'd spent the years since trying to get over him, and she didn't want to see him because she felt a fool for having cared too much and for still caring.

When she found out he was there, she had to head him off so that he wouldn't get caught up in the dangerous game she was playing. She couldn't risk Con realising what had been their relationship, especially because he would realise she really was Annabel if he saw her reaction to Adam.

And yes, I do buy that she still felt guilty about Crystal. (hide spoiler)]

I do see your point of view, especially about Adam. My initial reaction at their first meeting was surprise at how good Mary Grey was acting! I think Stewart (view spoiler)[wanted to drive home the point that she was young, and it was her first serious affair of the heart. (hide spoiler)] It made for a nice parallel to Julie's story.

As for the horses, (view spoiler)[Mary/Annabel was caught in a bad place. She had to risk blowing her cover to Con, or exposing herself to Granda. (hide spoiler)] Luckily, she managed to pull it off, but it was a tricky situation.

It was heartbreaking (view spoiler)[to see her weep as her grandfather died, knowing she was putting herself in danger, and that her grandfather failed to remember she had returned at the very end. (hide spoiler)]

Jeannette wrote: "It was heartbreaking (view spoiler) ..."

It was. It was just as well (view spoiler)[that she had to rush off to rescue Adam and Donald. And isn't the book from then on a wonderful example of sustained and building tension and action, leading to the climax in the stable? The peace as she is reconciled with Adam is a relief. I wish we'd seen more of that scene, actually.

And I agree, the parallel between Annabel's love story at nineteen and Julie's is excellently done. (hide spoiler)]

I was so unhappy when I thought that (view spoiler)[Con had killed Adam out of jealous spite. And, how wonderful that she realized how much she still loved him. It was so obvious in the way she reacted to his scarred hands, but she kept holding back, too proud to go back to him. (hide spoiler)]

Yes, that was a nasty few minutes.

Just one tiny nit-pick, and maybe you all can convince me otherwise, but (view spoiler)[would it be possible for a letter to survive inside a tree for EIGHT years without being almost completely turned into pulp? I know it said the writing was illegible, and it was dirty and mouldy, but I had a hard time believing it could still exist fairly intact. (hide spoiler)]

Jeannette wrote: "Don't read this until you are finished. [spoilers removed]"

Loved that line. It was a very powerful way of telling the reader how strong their pent-up feelings for each other were.

Even knowing the outcome from having read it before, I still got caught up in the second reading, just like I didn't know how it would end and even went through wondering who Mary really was all over again. Now that's good story telling.

Hannah wrote: "Just one tiny nit-pick, and maybe you all can convince me otherwise, but [spoilers removed]"

That was rather improbable, just like I knew that (view spoiler)[the horse would save the day! (hide spoiler)]

Shelley wrote: "Even knowing the outcome from having read it before, I still got caught up in the second reading, just like I didn't know how it would end and even went through wondering who Mary really was all o..."

That's good to hear, because I really do want to read this one again someday.

Hannah wrote: "Just one tiny nit-pick, and maybe you all can convince me otherwise, but [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Yes, if it was down deep enough in the hole so that the rain couldn't blow in. It wouldn't really be exposed to the damp, and that's the main thing that would destroy it. (hide spoiler)]

Shelley wrote: "Even knowing the outcome from having read it before, I still got caught up in the second reading, just like I didn't know how it would end and even went through wondering who Mary really was all over again. Now that's good story telling. ..."

I agree!

That was an exciting read!

I knew she was Annabel! She had to be. The other story just didn’t make sense. Could a stranger really impersonate a family member even after several years? I don’t think so, but then again the mind can play tricks on itself.
I kept noticing little things. Like for instance, Annabel certainly never spoke like a Canadian. Her word choice was off. “Believe me, it’s even queerer learning that one has a double. That’s so British. Mary Stewart is awesome when it comes to dialogue. The conversations her characters have is in fact what infuses them with so much personality. Would she make that kind of error? I suppose she probably did, but then again it just made her more likely that she was Annabel.

As for Con…I was kind of thrown off by him. I didn’t think at first he was the bad guy. I think it’s because I’ve read other Mary Stewart books, and in those the hero was somewhat of a dirt bag until later. I kept wondering how Stewart was going to redeem ole Con, especially after he threatened to kill Annabel in the first chapter. In the end, I decided Con was kind of a muttonhead. His murder attempts were sloppy and unsuccessful. If he had been more cunning, he might have succeeded. As it was, his death being brained by a horse seemed fitting.

Oh a side note, I cannot believe Annabel destroyed the ‘confession’ letter Con wrote. Wtf! Why did she keep giving Con the benefit of the doubt? He tried to kill her for Christ sake! I thought she was out for revenge, and I liked that. But then she wussed out at the end, telling Con he could have everything. It annoyed me. Why can’t she hate his guts and actively try to screw him over. I guess the heroine had to be nice back in 1961. Grrrrr

Anyway, I enjoyed this. I’ll write a review this weekend.
I love doing the buddy reads with you ladies.

I've finished too. For me there were no real surprises other than the fact that there were no surprises. As this is spoilerland, I'm not using spoiler tags, so if you haven't finished reading the book, you'd better stop reading this post!

I agree with Willowfaerie. The only possible way the narrative made sense is if Mary was Annabel. I was convinced of this from the fact that she agreed so readily to the impersonation and from the discussion about Brat Farrar and about the Tichborne case. If an imposter situation could only work in a novel (such as "Brat Farrar") and if a real-life imposter (the Tichborne claimant) was found to be a fraud, then it followed that there was no imposter in this novel. I thought that there was going to be some other twist, like Con not being a baddie, or maybe Adam having killed his wife. But Stewart hid everything in plain sight, which was clever.

I didn't like this as much as "Madam Will You Talk" or "This Rough Magic", because I didn't think the setting was as well realised. Apart from the odd reference to Hadrian's Wall and the references to Roman ruins, this could have been set in any rural English location with horses. What I like best about Stewart's writing is not the plots but the setting, and although the descriptive writing was good, a real sense of place was missing here. Also, I didn't engage with the characters very much. Apart from Donald, whom I found appealing, I didn't find the characters particularly interesting. All that said, it was still fun to read.

I'll drop the spoiler tags, but I'll uncheck the box that sends this to my update feed. Two of us are still reading.

I never did think about Mary being anyone but Mary, but I wasn't surprised when she turned out to be Annabel. The clues were all there, but I didn't pick up on them. The big reveal of the truth was a very touching scene, at her grandfather's death bed.

As for Con, I figured he was not going to be reformed, simply because the heroine never fell for him. In the other MS books, the H/H fall for each other, rather quickly, and I didn't see that here. I agree, Willow, Annabel was just too nice to Con. She needed the money to live, and he was a nasty jerk.

When I read it for the first time, I didn't guess that Mary was Annabel. That might be because of the reference to Brat Farrar, which is one of my favourite books. In case you haven't read Brat F yet I'll use spoiler tags - (view spoiler)[consciously or sub-consciously I assumed that this meant that Mary was an impostor too, and that her role was to discover what has happened to Annabel. We might think that Con had killed her, but then why would he have thought that she was back? Perhaps (like in Brat Farrar) he feared she had escaped the method he'd used - perhaps tipping her over the cliff into the water at the bottom? (hide spoiler)]

Annabel was trying to see the best in Con because she could see how he'd been treated unfairly by her grandfather. But given the fear which drove her to chase after Julie, calling to her and to Con, she did know what he was capable of. She was trying to placate him, and also she did want to get away from Whitescar when she realised that Adam was back for good, so she was prepared to give him the farm and live on her mother's money. That would also get her away from him!

Whew, the last few chapters really kept me turning the pages. I won't be using spoiler tags because this is well, spoilerland.

I really thought Mary was Annabel from pretty early on, but MS did play with my mind some. Knowing that didn't alter the feeling of suspense or leave me feeling short changed at all. I also wondered about the letter being able to survive for 8 years. I guess it could if it was stuffed down far enough, but could a girl of 11 stuff it down far enough? In my mind that doesn't really matter because all that really matters is that Annabel and Adam know what happened to it. If Julie hadn't found it, she still would have been able to tell Annabel about putting it there.

I love the way MS sets a scene, I adore her descriptions.

I love how she started and ended the book with "I might have been in a painted landscape..."

I love her horse allusions in her descriptions. Rowan was the hero in my book. I've only read 2 MS novels and both had animal heros, I wonder if this is a pattern of hers.

I better quit now, I'm getting all gushy and swooney over MS's writing:)

Diane Lynn wrote: "I better quit now, I'm getting all gushy and swooney over MS's writing:)..."

You can gush all you like - you're among fellow-fans here! I first read her books decades ago, searched them out and devoured them, and I still love re-reading them. Because they're so well-written, and have such good characters with excellent dialogue and of course the wonderful locations, every time I read them I see something new and enjoy them just as much.

With some writers, once you know the plot you can't re-read the book. That isn't so with MS. If you were to re-read The Ivy Tree straight away, I guarantee you'd enjoy it - you'd catch all the hints and see how you were misled by her the first time.

The classic example is the scene with Grandfather and the horses. Annabel goes white as a sheet and is in obvious distress. Con thinks it's because she's not Annabel so can't handle the horses, and this is what we're meant to think too. We hardly notice that Grandfather has just told her that Adam Forrest is back - we think that she's asking G'father about Adam to distract him from the effect of the horses on her. Excellent sleight of hand!

I bet if I went back right now I would notice all the times that Con suspected the truth, too.

And what I thought was an unnecessary addition to the plot in chapter 10 -- Donald finding those Roman stones -- turned out to be very important.

Jeannette wrote: "I bet if I went back right now I would notice all the times that Con suspected the truth, too.

And what I thought was an unnecessary addition to the plot in chapter 10 -- Donald finding those Roma..."

Yes, it was very important. Don't you just love those little touches MS adds, they don't seem at first so important, just a bit of story telling, but then- oh my!

Hj wrote: "Diane Lynn wrote: "I better quit now, I'm getting all gushy and swooney over MS's writing:)..."

You can gush all you like - you're among fellow-fans here! I first read her books decades ago, sear..."

I do believe I need to go back and reread that classic example bit. That was one of the times (I think) that MS was playing with my mind since I really thought Mary was indeed Annabel. I think I made a comment back in that chapter, I will have to go back and see what I was thinking at the time. My thinking evolved so much during the story.

Hj wrote: "When I read it for the first time, I didn't guess that Mary was Annabel. That might be because of the reference to Brat Farrar, which is one of my favourite books. In case you haven't read Brat F..."

Hj, it's so interesting that you had that reaction because of your familiarity with Brat Farrar. I read Brat Farrar immediately before reading this book and the reference to it was what convinced me that Mary had to be Annabel, because Mary / Annabel says something to the effect that a successful imposture could only happen in a novel like Brat Farrar. (And for anyone who hasn't read Brat Farrar, that isn't a spoiler, because it's clear from the beginning that Brat Farrar is an imposter!)

Added to that, I think I'm just very sceptical where first person narratives are concerned. It must be an occupational hazard!

Another impersonation that I enjoyed is Savannah Purchase. That also is not a spoiler as the reader knows from the beginning of the switch.

Diane Lynn wrote: "Another impersonation that I enjoyed is Savannah Purchase. That also is not a spoiler as the reader knows from the beginning of the switch."

That one is $400 on amazon! LOL

Jeannette wrote: "Diane Lynn wrote: "Another impersonation that I enjoyed is Savannah Purchase. That also is not a spoiler as the reader knows from the beginning of the switch."

That one is $400 on amazon! LOL"

I managed to snap up an old hardback for 16p (25c) plus p&p...

Kim wrote: "Hj, it's so interesting that you had that reaction because of your familiarity with Brat Farrar. I read Brat Farrar immediately before reading this book and the reference to it was what convinced me that Mary had to be Annabel, because Mary / Annabel says something to the effect that a successful imposture could only happen in a novel like Brat Farrar ..."

Going off topic, how did you like Brat Farrar? (the book and the character).

Hj wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "Diane Lynn wrote: "Another impersonation that I enjoyed is Savannah Purchase. That also is not a spoiler as the reader knows from the beginning of the switch."

That one is $400 o..."

I really need to keep a list for the times I hit the library sales, and Half-Price books. I got my old paperback of The Ivy Tree off the freebie shelf at the library.

Jeannette wrote: "Diane Lynn wrote: "Another impersonation that I enjoyed is Savannah Purchase. That also is not a spoiler as the reader knows from the beginning of the switch."

That one is $400 on amazon! LOL"

That's terrible! I borrowed from my library, check yours. It shouldn't be that hard to find. $400 is ridiculous.

These oldies are all out-of-print, and being held captive for outrageous prices by sellers on amazon. I'll check the two local libraries, and start writing that list.

I just checked and the university library has some of her other books, just not this one. Can you recommend any others by her that you enjoyed? I am being constantly surprised by the library at the university. :)

Jeannette wrote: "Diane Lynn wrote: "Another impersonation that I enjoyed is Savannah Purchase. That also is not a spoiler as the reader knows from the beginning of the switch."

That one is $400 on amazon! LOL"

Yikes! I have a copy and from my shelves I picked it up at a FOL sale. Check the libraries, all the local ones in my neck of the woods show copies.

I just finished, and this is spoilerland so here goes. I was fairly positive Mary would turn out to be Annabelle, but the narrative really threw me off, especially when she squicked out over the horses. It would be interesting going back for another read knowing how it ends up and watch for the clues.

MS did have me going a bit over Con, mostly because the ass-hat at the beginning usually turns out to be the good guy/love interest.

I was on pins and needles towards the end though, and even though I could guess what Con was up to in the stables and how the horse would react, it was still exciting reading.

It was exciting at the end, even though I figured that Rowan would save the day!

Jeannette wrote: "It was exciting at the end, even though I figured that Rowan would save the day!"

Yes it was. These buddy reads are a lot of fun.

Hj wrote: "Going off topic, how did you like Brat Farrar? (the book and the character)...."

I really liked it, Hj, even though it didn't hold too many surprises plot-wise. The psychological portrait of Brat was really interesting and the characterisation was excellent. However, I thought the ending was a bit rushed.

Jeannette wrote: "And what I thought was an unnecessary addition to the plot in chapter 10 -- Donald finding those Roman stones -- turned out to be very important. "

Having just read Brat Farrar where an old quarry plays an important part in the story, I loved this scene and saw it as pure homage to Tey. The suspense created (particularly if you know what happens in BF) was great and it quite spooked me out. I was almost shouting at them not to go in the quarry because I was worried what they would find. I was very relived when it was only Roman stones. LOL.

Whoever it was that suggested reading BF first, thank you, because I think it did add something (I also wish I'd known more about the Tichborne case!) but like HJ I found it a little misleading (I don't have Kim's logical lawyer's brain) as it made me think that Mary was indeed Mary and not Annabel, although this line of thinking made some of Mary/Annabel's actions and reactions more than a little confusing at times.

When I finished I almost decided to immediately start over again from the beginning as someone suggested doing because in hindsight I really would've preferred knowing Mary was Annabel from the beginning and feel that I missed so much by not knowing. I'm pretty sure I'll read it again at some stage for this reason.

Besides lack of the sense of place that Kim has already talked about, did anyone else think this one was singularly lacking in Stewart's usual humour? I also have to admit that I sorely missed the insta' love and her usual references to nylon underwear ;-d.

I wish I had had time to read BF before starting this. I'll do that before I reread this one. You really do want to start right in on it again and try to pick up on the clues missed the first time.

@Jemidar TiT certainly was lacking in the madcap chases, and the banter between the H/H that I've enjoyed in the other MS books I've read. This one took itself seriously pretty much the whole time.

And, I never believed there would be any attraction between Con and Mary, unlike her insta-love scenarios where the bad guy turns out to be the good guy. No nylon, but plenty of smokes.

Misfit said: I wish I had had time to read BF before starting this. I'll do that before I reread this one. You really do want to start right in on it again and try to pick up on the clues missed the first time.

If you're familiar with BF you can see where MS plays on that and uses it to mislead you. It's also obvious that she loved it.

Jemidar wrote: "...did anyone else think this this one was singularly lacking in Stewart's usual humour? I also have to admit that I sorely missed the intana' love her usual references to nylon ;-d..."

Agreed. There weren't as many incidences of humor in this as some of her others, but what there was was subtle and very funny, IMO (yes, I'm going back to Donald and Tommy-cat during tea - I ADORE that chapter!)

It seemed like Stewart was trying very hard to achieve a different approach with TIT then some of her other ones, in that I personally didn't really empathize with Mary/Annabel like I do with her other heroines. The lack of "insta-love" was both refreshing in its absence, while peversely I missed the romantic aspect (I don't enjoy adulterous affairs in novels). The side romance between Julie and Donald was sweet. It had to suffice as the romance for me.

Hee hee - no nylon to be seen! And the smoking, while present, wasn't as in your face as in M,WYT.

Jeannette wrote: "@Jemidar TiT certainly was lacking in the madcap chases, and the banter between the H/H that I've enjoyed in the other MS books I've read. This one took itself seriously pretty much the whole time..."

No, I didn't think that Con and Mary would get together either but for about half the book we were lacking any other real contender. I did like Donald and had a fleeting thought about him and Mary, but alas it wasn't to be.

There was not much romance in this one, although I did enjoy how things turned out for Adam and Annabel. I guess they both paid for their transgressions. It makes me think of Jane Eyre, in a way.

The first time I read this years ago, I was surprised that Lisa didn't turn out to be the ultimate baddie, and upon this re-read I had forgotten so much from my earlier read and once again thought that she played more of a baddie role then she ending up doing. Stewart wrote her character with some Freudian hang-ups. I liked the twist (at least it was a twist for me), that Stewart set her up for more evil that she didn't end up displaying.

Hannah wrote: "Agreed. There weren't as many incidences of humor in this as some of her others, but what there was was subtle and very funny, IMO (yes, I'm going back to Donald and Tommy-cat during tea - I ADORE that chapter!)..."

Yes, I loved that scene too and I think that's at least part of the reason why I liked Donald so much. I just couldn't warm up to the others as much because they hadn't been characterised with the same warmth and humour that Donald had.

As to the smoking, I took the early scene of Mary chain smoking to be a device for her to flash around the cigarette lighter with Mary Grey's initials on it because it more or less stopped once she was at the farm. And the only time that the alcohol came out was the restoritive brandy!

Hannah wrote: "The first time I read this years ago, I was surprised that Lisa didn't turn out to be the ultimate baddie, and upon this re-read I had forgotten so much from my earlier read and once again thought ..."

Lisa was sort of a door mat, wasn't she? She just wanders away at the end, and nobody seemed to mind...

It was a bit creepy when I thought she might actually hurry Grandpa along.

Jemidar wrote: "I took the early scene of Mary chain smoking to be a device for her to flash around the cigarette lighter with Mary Grey's initials on it because it more or less stopped once she was at the farm...."

I never noticed that. Makes sense.

Jemidar wrote: "And the only time that the alcohol came out was the restoritive brandy! "

Except for Con being drunk half the time...

You see, I didn't notice that. LOL.