Madam, want to talk about author Mary Stewart? discussion

I finished this yesterday and really liked it. I didn't mind the lack of "insta-love" or romance, because it was so suspenseful. This is one of those books that I'll want to read again (maybe after Brat Farrar), because I'm sure I missed a lot of clues. (I know I must have read it when I was about 12, but a lot of it probably went over my head.)

I also associated Adam with Mr. Rochester, mainly because of the fire. Annabel seemed mature enough in the present that I was able to just sort of ignore what the age difference would have meant eight years previously.

I was rather disappointed in Tommy for abandoning her kittens when Con came into the stable at the end (but then, I guess she was sort of a slipshod mother : ) ).

I "know" someone said somewhere that there's a Brat Farrar reference in The Ivy Tree, but I completely missed it. Whereabouts is it?

In my British copy, it's mentioned in Chapters 3 and 4.

Karlyne wrote: "I "know" someone said somewhere that there's a Brat Farrar reference in The Ivy Tree, but I completely missed it. Whereabouts is it?"

I can't find it in the American version, Peggy. There are lots of other literary references, but I just went through 3 and 4 and can't find it!

I liked the stupefying moment when all Annabel can think of is that she hopes Con won't hurt the kittens. I thought that was a very real instant!

Maybe it's one of those things that was edited out for length??? I sort of skimmed those references anyway, since I haven't yet read Brat Farrar and want to join in the group read.

When Annabel saw the kittens is when I realized Tommy had abandoned them; she left when Con came in, but at that point, I didn't know where the kittens were. I think I was more worried about the kittens than I was Annabel! :)

Karlyne wrote: "I can't find it in the American version, Peggy. There are lots of other literary references, but I just went through 3 and 4 and can't find it!

I liked the stupefying moment when all Annabel can ..."

I don't recall Brat Farrar being expressly mentioned by Mary Stewart in The Ivy Tree; I think the connection or inspiration was mentioned by her in an interview or something like that. But I could be wrong! I'm actually just starting reading Brat Farrar for the first time.

Peggy wrote: "Maybe it's one of those things that was edited out for length??? I sort of skimmed those references anyway, since I haven't yet read Brat Farrar and want to join in the group read.

When Annabel sa..."

"From the corner of my eye I saw a shadow leap from the manger to the top of the partition, and vanish without a sound. Tommy, taking cover." Yes, he was definitely looking out for his own skin. She, I mean...

I can't find the Brat reference in the American version - someday I'm going to find a British one, just to see what I think of the weird plot twist. I can't figure out how in the world it could have worked into the actual plot!

I read Brat for the first time (I'd never even heard of it) when it was mentioned here. I'm curious to see what you all think of it during the buddy read!

The Brat reference is very much in the British version. Part of the discussion between Mary and Con's sister in Newcastle.

The reference would make so much sense that I was surprised that I couldn't find it. It's weird what they edit and/or abridge.

I agree Karlyne - I wondered if it was because Josephine Tey was perhaps not well known in the US? Otherwise I am totally perplexed!

Is Ivy Tree the only of one of her books that has an abridged/edited version published in different countries?

I'm still annoyed that anything was changed, and I'm even more annoyed that I can't figure out how the original fits into the storyline and makes any sense. Did we ever figure out that Stewart herself did any of the changing, or was it just American editing?

I just finished reading this for the 3rd time and reading through the comments and don't know where to comment first.

Well, first I will say that I am sure I saw the reference to Brat. The only reason I noticed it was because I had seen a reference on here to it and I had never hear of it before that. I have it on my library list to request soon.

I just love this book, maybe more this time than previous times. I wish I could remember my reaction the first time but I do remember when I was sure who Mary/Annabel was which was when she rode the horse the first time and got caught.
The second time I remember watching for hints and things I had missed. I kept thinking, "Did she really never say to the reader that she was not Annabel?"
This time I again was watching closely for "the moment when it was clear" who she was and again I was fooled. I, of course, knew but still thought when she first talked to Adam that it was clear until she switched and lied to him. I was still waiting for the horse scene. Wow, is she a clever writer! I just love the way she manipulates the reader.

I actually liked Adam in some ways more than Annabel. I did not like that she was willing to leave Con in control of the farm and free when she knew he was capable of murder. Can you justify leaving that type person free to possibly harm others in the future?
I could go on and on.
I tried to go back to see exactly what she said about not being comfortable with horses, but I haven't found it yet. I will have to reread the first chapter or so again unless someone can guide me to the right spot.
Okay, at this moment, this is officially my favorite MS book.

I remember the first time I read it very clearly. I realized that Mary was Annabel when she saw Adam's hands for the first time and started crying over them. I think this might have been the first grown-up mystery I ever read and it opened up a whole new world to me.

(Mary tells Con that she knows the front of a horse from its rear and that's about it, so that's why they decided to tell everyone that she'd had an accident and could no longer ride.)

On this reread...

Reading BF first definitely enhanced this read of The Ivy Tree for me. & Willow (if you are still around) thanks for putting up the links to the Tichbourne case - most interesting.

I think BF is the superior book - partly for a good bit of it I didn't like Annabel much & felt her actions were often inexplicable.

I didn't see Con/Lisa as actual incest,but Lisa was infatuated with him.

But MS tied the loose ends together so well! very skilled writing!

Regarding horses… It's in chapter 1 when Con and Mary first meet.

" horses now. Do you ride?"
The question was so sudden and seemingly irrelevant that I must've looked and sounded almost startled. " horses? Good heavens, no! Why?"
" oh just a hangover from your looking so like Annabel. That was her thing. She was a wizard, which I should say, with horses. She could whisper to them."

Regarding Brat Farrar....(from the U.K. Edition of The Ivy Tree
Cheaper 3....Mary and Lisa
" haven't you read brat farrar by Josephine Tey? You couldn't say that was pure romance. It could've happened."
" I have read it, yes and it probably is the best of them all."
........" you say that Brat Farrar is only a story, and that in real life anyone who walks into a family claiming to be a – – well a long lost heir, would merely land in trouble, like this Tishborne man. "

Chapter 4 Mary and Lisa
She gave her faint, unreadable smile. " The point is, surely, that is mutual?" She patted the book which lay on the arm of her chair. Brat Farrar had become, for her, the textbook of our enterprise.

Teaqueen wrote: "Regarding horses… It's in chapter 1 when Con and Mary first meet.

" horses now. Do you ride?"
The question was so sudden and seemingly irrelevant that I must've looked and sounded almost startled..."

This is in my edition.

Teaqueen wrote: "Regarding Brat Farrar....(from the U.K. Edition of The Ivy Tree
Cheaper 3....Mary and Lisa
" haven't you read brat farrar by Josephine Tey? You couldn't say that was pure romance. It could've happe..."

And these are not! How silly - do you suppose her American publishers didn't want to advertise Tey's work? Since the book was already over 10 years old, I find it so odd!

Karlyne,
I have only read the UK version of the book. I recently bought the American edition and have been comparing the two on my current read through.

The big difference in the two versions is there early spoiler of the real reason that Annabel left home.
" I only meant that the girl had played the fool and got herself pregnant."
"what?"
"Yes"
They say that words make no difference: it isn't true, they make it all. I found I was on my feet looking I suppose as shocked as I felt. "oh my God" I said "this is… This is…" I turned abruptly and went to the window instead with my back to her. After a bit I managed to say: "I quite see why you didn't tell me sooner."
Chapter 4 conversation between Mary and Lisa.

I wonder if for the American version the Publisher felt that this was too big of a reveal early in the book and perhaps with the brat farrar references that it would have the reader connect that Mary is really Annabel.

As for me I am totally clueless… It took me a long time to figure out that Mary was Annabel. I can't remember where in the story I figured it out… But it was a long ways near the end of the book. But in reading this scene knowing that Mary is Annabel… You can see and tell that she is shocked to the core by this reveal. It seems that Mary would not have that drastic of a reaction. But Annabel knows it's a lie and she can't hide her surprised reaction, at least initially. Later in this scene she does cover her tracks.

Who started the lie, then? It doesn't make sense to me that Con would have, unless he was trying to make the old man believe that Anabel was no better than she should be, but it's never mentioned between grandfather and Anabel, and he surely would not have forgotten!

Karlyne wrote: "Who started the lie, then? It doesn't make sense to me that Con would have, unless he was trying to make the old man believe that Anabel was no better than she should be, but it's never mentioned b..."

I thought Con did. His reasons didn't make sense but then, he was insane.

Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Who started the lie, then? It doesn't make sense to me that Con would have, unless he was trying to make the old man believe that Anabel was no better than she should be, but it's n..."

Yes, Con told the lie - he was quite open about it.

Who did he tell? Did Anabel's grandfather know about it?

Karlyne wrote: "Who did he tell? Did Anabel's grandfather know about it?"

In Chapter 4, in the section before she goes to the farm, where Lisa tells Mary about the pregnancy/argument on the night she left, she states quite clearly that Con told the grandfather about the affair, the pregnancy and also convinced the grandfather he had always been prepared to marry her.

Doesn't Annabel suddenly realize in the stall that Con told the lie out of "simple vanity"?

"Everybody in the district had known I would have none of him. After I had gone, his moment came. He had been my secret lover. Grandfather’s anger was a small price to pay for his own satisfaction."

It certainly plays We'll with Con's vanity, but what in the world would he have done if Anabel had come back and spoken to her grandfather before Con had time to murder her? Does the old man ever refer to it with Anabel? You'd think he'd at least say something like, "So where'd you park my great-grandchild?"

She says to Lisa early on that she is going to say that she was mistaken about being pg, rather than have to invent a baby. But you're right that it's odd that her grandfather apparently never asks.

I must admit I don't really know what the pregnancy plot adds to the overall thing, unless MS figured Mary and Con each need a fake reason for Annabel running away - Con couldn't admit to Mary that it was really because he tried to kill Annabel and Mary couldn't admit to Con that it was really because she was in love with Adam. Oh what a tangled web!

Anabel tries to tell her grandfather about Con attacking her and he took Con's side, which was another reason for her leaving that night. He thought Con was just trying to kiss her, but when the pregnancy thing came out, wouldn't he have wondered about rape?!

Well, I'll just have to keep my eyes peeled for a British version when I'm out used-book shopping and see if it ever makes sense to me!

Karlyne wrote: "Call me strange (ha!), but Adam comes off to me as completely believable - tortured and flawed, wanting a chance to do things right this time and handicapped by his morality. He knows that he shoul..."

Karlyne, I'm with you! I find Adam believable and can even sympathise with the suffering he's gone through. He's made mistakes in the past and bitterly regretted them. It's enough for me to see him through Annabel's feelings for him - I don't really need any further interaction with him as a reader.
MS wrote suspense/ adventure stories with a dash of romance; not romantic novels with a mystery thrown in. We tend to fall in love with her love stories because she made them so engaging. But essentially, the romances, and therefore the characterisation of the hero, are plot-driven, and the heroine remains the central character.
This novel needed a somewhat dark, sombre love story as the basis of the main deception plot, and a hero to match. Nothing else could have explained all Annabel's actions. It also needed her to have been quite young at the time of her affair with Adam to explain why she ran away. Readers who are bothered by her age should think of it as a demand of the plot!
After everything they've been through, I'm rooting for Adam's and Annabel's second shot at happiness. :-)

Anjali wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Call me strange (ha!), but Adam comes off to me as completely believable - tortured and flawed, wanting a chance to do things right this time and handicapped by his morality. He kno..."

Hear, hear!

I could have done with him being more convincingly good-looking. Perhaps I'm very shallow! But I am also rooting for his and Annabel's future happiness. I like the idea of them and Julie and Donald visiting each other at Christmas and their children growing up playing together.

Oh, but the grey flecks in his hair! What about a young Daniel Day Lewis?!

Ok, finally got to chap 9 the first interaction between Annabell and Adam. Well, how fun was that?!? A little bit of Bronte (Jane and Rochester)...loved how Mary Gray had to weave around the truth....and Mary Stewart as well!! 😛

Ok! Just finished the book. And by the way, I love it!… Did the Roman tablet found in the cellar … Did that turn out to be the real deal? Not that it really matters at this point… It just needed to be the ruse that Adam and Donald we're checking out. But wondered if it was ever mentioned about its authenticity?

Donald was sure it was a Roman site, but I don't think it's mentioned at the end. It'll be nice for Julie to be at Whitescar if Donald gets to do the excavation, won't it?

Karlyne, agree. Of all of Mary Stewart's novels… This one I would like to imagine a sequel. Because of the tenseness, plot and the duplicity of the characters…this one For me needs some kind and gentler moments. Perhaps pick it up like maybe a month after the grandfather's funeral. And everyone has pretty much settled where they are going to live. I think a mystery involving the Roman ruins would be fun! Would be nice to see a wedding between Julie and Donald. Since Con is dead, perhaps Lisa ( with an unknown accomplice ) reappears to contest the will?

What WILL happen to Lisa? I seem to remember that she did inherit a small sum from grandfather, enough to get settled on, probably back in Ireland? With her housekeeping and cooking skills, I can see her capturing a farmer or even just managing a big manor house of some kind. No, wait! She opens a 5 star restaurant in Dublin!

Since Lisa was so attached to Con emotionally, I could see her having some sort of breakdown....and maybe in that moment of vulnerability a long lost relative of the Winslow's taking advantage of that and manipulates her into contesting the will. Haha! Can you tell I mostly read Victorian novels? Just finished The Picture of Dorian Gray. 🙃

Although I love your idea of five-star restaurant in Dublin! Now… For what to call it? Something obviously dedicated to her brother.

Chez Connor? Connor's Comfort Food?

I haven't read Wilde in years!!

Conners Cuisine? Although I really like your comfort food one. And that would be appropriate for Lisa.

I really like Oscar Wilde! The book is for my book club which meets on Saturday. We will definitely have a lively discussion! The book was… Wow!

I used to have Dorian, but I think I may have lost it in a move. Your book club should have fun with it!

FYI....regarding the recent release of Mary
Stewart's books on Kindle. It's the British version of The Ivy Tree that is on this kindle release not The American version. The British version is 20 chapters. The American version is 18 chapters.

I just found this very interesting web article that talks about Mary Stewart's early manuscript versions of The Ivy Tree, and how the plot changed from earlier drafts. You all will enjoy it: https://marystewartreading.wordpress....

Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "I just found this very interesting web article that talks about Mary Stewart's early manuscript versions of The Ivy Tree, and how the plot changed from earlier drafts. You all will enjoy it: https:..."

I just read the article you mentioned, and I think that if Con lived he still would have been crazily jealous even if Annabel did give him all the money. I feel like eventually he'd have tried to kill her anyway, especially if she remained stayed in the neighborhood with Adam.

Also, it wouldn't have been very realistic to have given him all of her inheritance for 2 reasons:

1) Why would anyone reward someone who has attempted to murder her twice and her cousin as well?

2) Adam is struggling financially, so wouldn't she want at least some of her inheritance to help him?

I agree, Debra; maybe that's why Mary Stewart changed her mind while working on this story. :)

Thanks for the link. I agree having Con live would have cast a very dark ending on the book. If Mary wanted to have a very unsettled ending....that would have done it! (Or would left open the door for an intriguing sequel!!)

I can see Annabel giving Con some money for his years of service with the stipulation that he leave England, and then telling him that a signed and notarized detailing of his dastardly deeds is in their lawyer's possession and that if Con ever returns to the U.K. or if anything ever happens to Annabel or Adam or Julie, the lawyer has orders to turn it over to the police immediately. And he'd be written out of her will, anyway, so there'd be no monetary gain from her death.

I'm pretty sure I've read this kind of solution in more than one murder mystery. And in a Western or two.

I just finished Brat Farrar by Josephine Tey and wow! Soooooooooo good. Glad I reread The Ivy Tree last year. These two books need to go hand in hand.

I agree, I love them both.