The Sword and Laser discussion

First off, I am going to apologize to anyone who dearly loves this book or has a major nostalgic bond with it. I had not read this book until now and it was one that I have been greatly looking forward to getting to. Its been on my wall of shame (books that I own but keep putting off reading b/c of new books) for quite some time.

With that being said, I have so many issues w/ this book. Keeping in mind that some measure of a willing suspension of disbelief is always required, I found myself arguing w/ the book on every page turn. A few things that drove me crazy:

1) Time Travel - Time travel is REALLY hard to pull off. In this case, there are so many paradoxes here and the author does little to explain / handle these issues. I have real issues that characters "know" what to do b/c it was triggered by a time jump from the future. There's a chicken & egg problem there.

2) New powers on-demand - Characters suddenly figure out a 'new' power that saves the day. Lets forget about the fact that the dragons always knew they could jump through time but were disinclined to share that tidbit.

3) Why are there dragon riders again? Considering how capable dragons are, why in the world do they even need humans?

4) Abusive relationships & very strange / jerky character interactions.

I could continue the list, but this does a pretty good job hitting the highlights: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php... (MAJOR spoliers here for all books)

Long story short, this is the first big sword selection miss for me. Anyone else have a big negative reaction to this book? Am I overreacting?

Nathan wrote: "First off, I am going to apologize to anyone who dearly loves this book or has a major nostalgic bond with it. I had not read this book until now and it was one that I have been greatly looking fo..."

No, I don't think you are overreacting. I had the same negative reaction. In a way, this book reminds me of TV soap operas where character consistency and plot flow are sacrificed to create instant drama.

By the way, I love that TV tropes web-site. Too funny.

I admit I give the books a lot of slack. Never did like Dragonflight and Dragonquest, except a few spots here and there. Liked Dragonsong better (the second half, anyway), but *adored* Dragonsinger.

At this point, I have a few McCaffreys I reread because I like the lead characters a whole lot and the way they win the day a lot. Not a one of them doesn't have flaws that make me wince a little, but overall, they're still good enough reads I keep coming back to them.

Note that I am now rereading Dragonflight for the very first time. I *really* had trouble with it first time around. Also, I read most of 'em as they were published, for whatever that's worth. I still remember squeeing when I read the Dragondex when it first appeared in The White Dragon and found out Menolly had another fire lizard. (Turned out not to be important, sigh...)

Anyway, yeah, lots of issues. But if I turn off the analysis engine in my brain, there's a lot to like, for me.

Hate the over-the-top nasty characters. Not in the slightest bothered by time paradoxes.

Nathan wrote: "I could continue the list, but this does a pretty good job hitting the highlights: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php... (MAJOR spoliers here for all books)"

I'm not going to quibble with your criticisms, because I agree with a lot of them. But as a long-time troper, TV Tropes shouldn't really be seen as a list of "issues" with a work, because Tropes Are Not Bad, especially when this work was the Trope Maker/Trope Codifier of many of them. You need to be more specific about the ones you see as problematic.

Nathan wrote: "1) Time Travel"

I'm going to agree with you on this one. It's very paradoxical, but most time-travel fiction is.

"2) New powers on-demand"

I think you may be being a bit hard in this respect. To me, it's less a case of "powers on-demand" so much as...the entire reason the author tells THIS story is because of the newly discovered power. Why tell the story of the previous Pass if there was nothing particularly noteworthy about it?

As for the dragons knowing about time travel and not disclosing it, keep in mind that the dragons of Pern are animals...animals with a telepathic link to their rider. That may sound a bit harsh...my point is they don't reason like humans do. Specifically when McCaffrey writes about the concept of time travel as a thought for the dragons, my interpretation was that the dragons just sort of accept it in a "we did it, so it must be possible" sort of way. Not in the "well, of course we can travel in time....you just never asked" way.

3) Why are there dragon riders again?

This isn't covered this early in the series. The spoilers for this discussion are to be found in Dragonsdawn. But this point is definitely addressed.

I agree as well. I tried not to be too agressive on my comments and picked just one of my issues to start another thread. But what really annoyed me (after thinking about it for a while) was the whole time/space teleportation. This is simply too great a power to generate any kind of meaningful struggle in a story.
On the first moment that time-travelling showed up on the book, I was sure that this would be the final solution of the book.
I totally agree with your other criticisms - but I don't mind that Sword & Laser pick something flawed from time to time. I did enjoy the whole idea of having a rogue planet being the threat, after all.

Nathan wrote: "1) Time Travel - Time travel is REALLY hard to pull off. In this case, there are so many paradoxes here and the author does little to explain / handle these issues. I have real issues that characters "know" what to do b/c it was triggered by a time jump from the future. There's a chicken & egg problem there."

As much as McCaffrey wanted this to be Science Fiction and uses SFnal elements, this really isn't. It's Fantasy, plain and simple. As I've mentioned in other threads (nyuk nyuk), there's no way the dragons can work. It's physically impossible for them to fly, nevermind with multiple riders. Teleporting through space and time just because you *want* to is beyond silly and violates physics a lot. It's fun, though.

Nathan wrote: "2) New powers on-demand - Characters suddenly figure out a 'new' power that saves the day. Lets forget about the fact that the dragons always knew they could jump through time but were disinclined to share that tidbit."

I'm pretty sure they talk about making sure you don't jump to a different time. Even if that's in a later book, Ramoth didn't know it any more than Lessa did the first time they did it.

Nathan wrote: "3) Why are there dragon riders again? Considering how capable dragons are, why in the world do they even need humans?"

Because of the Rule of Cool (another TV tropes link) and nothing more. You have to admit, dragonriders are AWESOME. And that is the entire reason for their existence, full stop.

Nathan wrote: "4) Abusive relationships & very strange / jerky character interactions."

There are already at least two threads on this. Suffice to say, not everyone agrees with this sentiment.

The flying is addressed later. (view spoiler)[Dragons have the ability to do micro-telekinesis, which they don't need to think about, to make flying smooth and to handle weight. (hide spoiler)] Yes, it's pretty dodgy, but I agree with Trike, the real reason is that flying a'dragonback is awesome.

TV Tropes points out that all the time travel creates stable time loops. Works for me.

Great responses! Did not mean to imply that tropes are bad. In fact, I often appreciate flat / stereotypical characters & situations (aka tropes), but perhaps with a little more... finesse? ... in the way they are presented.

More than anything else, I had to vent for a second as I was just surprised by my reaction. I really built this one up in my head over time. I am sure that part of it is just me, but I am glad that there is some level of agreement with some of my issues. :)

If I may add another, a big issue for me is how easily convinced the other Weyr dwellers were to jump forward 400 years in time. There's a very brief conversation in which a dragon-rider effectively says that they live to fight threads so they may as well go - but that doesn't account for the feelings of all the other people, the ones that stock the caverns and tend the food beast and so on. Not to mention they get agreement between all 5 Weyrs and execute a mass evacuation, with equipment and supplies, in what seems to be a few days.

Leave everyone you know and just jump forward? Having it remain a mystery for so long as well? I didn't find that believable either. And the logistics would be ugly.

Alex wrote: "Exactly. Sure all the riders went, but what about everybody living in the Weyr who got left behind. Seems like society would collapse with such an exflux of people. "

Which it did.

My main problem is with the thread. It is supposed to come from another planet, yet during the colder months it will "freeze" before it reaches the ground. If it freezes so easily how does it survive through space?

I know there are extremophile bacteria that can survive in space in basically hibernation and then wake up again when the environment allows for it. Maybe that is what thread is? Yet it appears to come from a planet with no oxygen? Does anyone know if this is explained later?

About thread: (view spoiler)[It's encapsulated as a spore. (hide spoiler)] We learn a ton about it in later books. I mostly let it go whooshing past me when McCaffrey got technical.

Chris wrote: "My main problem is with the thread. It is supposed to come from another planet, yet during the colder months it will "freeze" before it reaches the ground. If it freezes so easily how does it survive through space?"

I just considered them to be like seeds: they can last a ludicrously long time until they sprout, then they're vulnerable to the least little thing.

Of course, I was 12 when I read it, so there's that.

...although now that I think about it, that explanation works just fine. I mean, it's not like this is hard science fiction or anything. It's just a fantasy with sci-fi on the side.

I am actually enjoying how you find more details the more you read. The stuff they find in The White Dragon is probably going to make me read the entire series.....one day.

I agree with what the OP brought up. Would also add that it felt like the whole book would've been better if it had been a 30 page prologue to a full book about the war on the Threads. As it is now, it's a 300 page filler where nothing much truly happens.