The Thomas Mann Group discussion

Kris wrote: "Kalliope wrote:
I am not saying that autism and its derivatives did not exist in the 19th century but that in a world with no penicillin and in which urban hygene was in a dismal state, the issues of psychologically-not-quite-fitting-in were just sheer luxury, and that reflect more our concerns and values and assumptions. "

Kall, this is a good summary of my thoughts on this issue -- but I agree with you that group members can disagree and speculate as long as their speculations do not include spoilers beyond this week's reading! Your suggestion of syphilis as an explanation for some of Christian's behavior also strikes me as possible, and as a disease that Thomas Mann would be aware of when he developed Christian's character. "

Kris, it's a pleasure to be here.

At the risk of being shot/ostracized/ or considered a troll, I must make a few comments on the importance of psychology in the German culture.

The term psychology was coined by German philosopher Rudolf Göckel in 1590.

Immanuel Kant lectured on alternatives to empirical psychological findings from the 1770s-1790s.

By the mid-19th Century, Germany became the center of physiological psychology.

Sigmund Freud began his medical career in 1882 in the Vienna General Hospital in the Psychiatric Unit.

Thomas Mann corresponded with Sigmund Freud for over thirty years. Mann often disagreed with Freud, but the connection existed and Mann was very familiar with the state of psychology at the time he wrote Buddenbrooks.

Numerous articles exist regarding Mann and the psychoanalytical analysis of his work.

The principles of psychology existed long before antibiotics were invented and were not sheer luxuries, but occurred during a period when psychology was being considered a science and not simply a branch of philosophy.

Regarding religion, Mann purportedly said, Mann remains, at least for most of his poetic and-thinking development, faith as disbelief skeptical. "Faith? Unbelief? I hardly know what is the one thing and the other. I actually do not know to say whether I consider myself a believer or an infidel. Profound skepticism about both, on so-called faith and unbelief is all of my passport when you catechize me."We are so densely crowded round the eternal mystery that one would have to be an animal in order to propose only one day out of mind." See Christoph Schwoebel - "Thomas Mann and the religious question," http://www.ekd.de/EKD-Texte/ekd_texte...

Clearly we see religion as a greater part of the lives of the earlier generations of the Buddenbrooks. Antonie finds pastors one of the favorite targets of her sarcastic tongue. In Thomas and Christian we see a waning interest in religion. Particularly, Thomas views his Father's pastoral gifts as a drain on the firm. I believe we are seeing a transformation from the spiritual to the secular.

Mike, I find your ideas and contributions to this discussion fascinating!
Then again, I have worked in mental health.

Thanks Mike. I agree with Laima.

I think my health care background has me analyzing Christian's behavior from a quasi-medical/neuro/psych point of view where he may in fact just be disaffected from all that his family appears to stand for.

Great post, Mike. I like your discussion of Mann's interactions with Freud, as well as your pinpointing the transition from religious to secular as one of the tensions in this society.

Thanks Mike for that quality comment, it certainly sheds some light to Mann's ultimate motives regarding the role religion played in the Buddenbrooks' generations.
I also noted that religion takes prominence when the Consul's death is approaching, and Frau Consul's faith is rekindled even with more fervor after her husband is gone. Could there be an inner criticism in the way the characters turn to religion when they seek absolution for their deeds, even if unconsciously?

Regarding the brother's seemingly opposed inclinations, there is a passage where Tom is talking to Tony about Christian's love for the arts, and he says: I have thought a great deal about this curious and useless self-preoccupation, because I had once an inclination to it myself. But I observed that it made me unsteady, hare-brained, and incapable - and control, equilibrium, is, at least for me, the important thing.
So it is not that Tom didn't feel the pull of the arts, but that he suppressed it intentionally because he needed to be practical in order to fulfill his expected role as a Buddenbrook. I wonder if that responsibility will eventually become a too greater burden.

He could have multiple sclerosis . It often starts with tingling in the legs and hands. These symptoms come and go. People did not have a name for this. Swallowing and even eyesight may be affected. e
Even today it's hard to diagnose.

Was anyone surprised at Thomas's engagement to Gerda Arnoldsen? It seemed to come out of thin air, since he had not seemed interested in marriage to this point, but I suppose after his father's death, it seemed time to marry and start a family. Clara's engagement to Tibertius was not so surprising, given her religious sentiments.

Diane, I wasn't surprised at Thomas's engagement, but to whom he chose as his mate. Considering his attitude toward the arts, I'll be interested to see her influence over any progeny from the marriage.

Possibly a woman who "dabbled" in art, in this case music, was considered okay, because it was a harmless hobby. After all, women didn't have to support the family (except indirectly through their dowries), they had time and leisure to pursue their interests, and it kept them occupied.

I recall Thomas telling his shop girl that he would marry one day. I think he also would consider it his duty to the family.

I think he told her he would marry someday, not he would marry her . Thom was a conventional man. He would marry for money and power. Rember what happened when his uncle married for love. His uncle lost out on the business.

Ah, Diane, she doesn't dabble. She's a concert violinist.

No, he definitely indicated he would not marry her but said he would marry. Of course it had to be the right, proper marriage.

His wife is a whole other story, but that is probably in next week's reading.

I had a couple flash-forwards to Magic Mountain in reading these chapters.

One is the curious state of Christian's health, somewhat similar to that of Hans Castorp.

The other is the very comical depiction of the religious activities and hangers on in the household in chapter five of Part 5.

We get a glimpse of what is to come when we find that, after singing "I am a lowly scavenger ..." "Frau Grunlich was so overcome with spasms of contrition that she tossed her hymnal aside and left the room." (Or spasms of something else perhaps?)

A couple pages later on we find that Tony "bitterly despised these gentlemen in black". The fun made of these rather ridiculous people (Pastor Trieschke in particular) reminded me in some vague way of some of the humor in Magic Mountain. I'm thinking of some of the scenes in the dining room I believe.

Well, this is not a very germane comment, I apologize.

Thanks Ted though, you've piqued my appetite even more for reading "Magic Mountain".

I noticed that Gerda has white teeth, while Thomas of course has very bad yellow teeth.

Hello everyone. I have fallen a bit behind in reading and in posting comments. Will try to catch up now.

Jan-Maat wrote: "I noticed that Gerda has white teeth, while Thomas of course has very bad yellow teeth."

Yes, I have noticed that there are several comments on the teeth of the characters..

Sue wrote: "Thanks Ted though, you've piqued my appetite even more for reading "Magic Mountain"."

I am also very interested in reading Magic Mountain. The idea was to launch another group after this one, to read MM with a break of a few months. We wanted to start with the earlier novel. I also plan to read Death in Venice soon.

In general I am finding BB very much a 19th century novel (not a criticism, just a surprise). I had been expecting in vague terms something more modernist, but Mann was rather young when he wrote BB.

I imagine MM will be very different.

Sue wrote: "Thanks Mike. I agree with Laima.

I think my health care background has me analyzing Christian's behavior from a quasi-medical/neuro/psych point of view where he may in fact just be disaffected fr..."

I am with you in this. Although my view of Christian is still very sketchy, I am inclined towards seeing him as just disaffected with his family. It is remarkable how little interest they have shown in knowing more about his life while he was abroad. I myself wanted to know more about what he did in Valparaíso. Buty they are a contented family very much satisfied with their own world.

Mike wrote: "Ah, Diane, she doesn't dabble. She's a concert violinist."

I would not consider Gerda a dabbler in the arts either. And Gerda is not only an artist, she is considered an exotic artist (due to the fact that she is Dutch). That might not be (and certainly to us) as exotic or as "foreign" as say, Tony Kröger's artistic Spanish mother, but Mann certainly considers Gerda as an exotic, decadent influence (she is socially acceptable, but I don't think that her personality and her temperament are considered similar to the Buddenbrooks, but quite different) On the other hand, that same artistic decadent nature has already been noticed to some extent in the Buddenbrooks as well. Thomas has claimed that he enjoys the arts but suppressed this due to his duty to the family business and both Tony and Christian have artistic tendencies.

Jan-Maat wrote: "I noticed that Gerda has white teeth, while Thomas of course has very bad yellow teeth."

Pay attention to the TEETH– they're very important– teeth & eye colour are the leitmotifs throughout.

Gundula wrote: "Mike wrote: "Ah, Diane, she doesn't dabble. She's a concert violinist."

I would not consider Gerda a dabbler in the arts either. And Gerda is not only an artist, she is considered an exotic arti..."

Yes, the artistic side of any given character is becoming a more and more important facet in the analytical prism.

Mike wrote: "Kris wrote: "Kalliope wrote:
I am not saying that autism and its derivatives did not exist in the 19th century but that in a world with no penicillin and in which urban hygene was in a dismal stat..."

Mike, thank you for your contributions on Psychology in German lands.

But as you take issue at my comment, let me clarify it. When I qualified psychological concerns as a luxury I was not saying that they did not exist, but that I rank them differently in their vital importance precisely at a time when antibiotics had not been discovered yet. In a world with greater advances in medication, we can dedicate more attention to psychological aspects because many other health concerns have greatly subsided.

Even within the field of psychology (this is not my expertise) I imagine that the concerns and interests etc… varied greatly from one period to another. Even the word psychology (and it was the Latin Psichologia that first conflated the Greek terms Logos and Psyche) probably grouped very different concepts across its history reflecting to a great extent the values at any given point of its existence.

Autism and other attention deficiencies are very modern findings (post WWII?) and even today a concern in only the privileged countries. That is why I find it hard to consider them in a 1901 novel.

BB is an early novel by Mann. He finished it at the age of 25. I know very little about his life but I doubt he would have had much direct interaction with Freud by then. Of course Mann very probably was interested in psychological aspects from early on and this led to his investigating exchanging letters the matter later on in his life.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Kris wrote: "Great post, Mike. I like your discussion of Mann's interactions with Freud, as well as your pinpointing the transition from religious to secular as one of the tensions in this society."

I have had a break in my reading.. I will have to think about the religion issue a bit more.. I noticed the change at the beginning, between Johann the father, a man from the Enlightenment, and his son, a man from a more puritanical 19th century. Not clear to me yet how to interpret Tony's.

Kalliope wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Mike wrote: "Ah, Diane, she doesn't dabble. She's a concert violinist."

I would not consider Gerda a dabbler in the arts either. And Gerda is not only an artist, she is considere..."

Which is a main and repetitive theme with and in Thomas Mann's entire opus (both his novels and his short fiction).

I am also very interested in reading Magic Mountain. The idea was to launch another group after this one, to read MM with a break of a few months. We wanted to start with the earlier novel. I also plan to read Death in Venice soon.

I would love to continue in a group read of more of Mann's work, Kalliope.

Kalliope wrote: "Mike wrote: "Kris wrote: "Kalliope wrote:
I am not saying that autism and its derivatives did not exist in the 19th century but that in a world with no penicillin and in which urban hygene was in ..."

But I would still say that just because a condition is more common today or appears to be more common today, does not mean that it did not exist in days gone by (it might just have not been as easily recognised or assumed that is was something else). For instance, the withdrawn nature of autism (and I am not talking about low functioning but high functioning autism) might have been simply seen as extreme shyness in the past or as someone who has decided to be a hermit or an anchorite. And in the Middle Ages even up into the late 19th century, mental illness was often seen as demonic possession (which it still is at times, especially in areas where people still tend to belief in possession by spirits, demons and the like, so someone displaying ticks, repetitive movements etc. would likely have been seen as being possessed by an outside entity and not mentally ill or displaying a disease).

Kalliope wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "I noticed that Gerda has white teeth, while Thomas of course has very bad yellow teeth."

Yes, I have noticed that there are several comments on the teeth of the characters.."

I have also noticed the description of the state of characters' teeth. Bad teeth serves as a metaphor for decay and decline. See Open Wide! An Oral Examination of Thomas Mann's Early Fiction, Stephen Joy, German Life and Letters, October, 2007, vol. 60, issue 4, pp 467-480, found at http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail... .

Kalliope wrote: "Sue wrote: "Thanks Ted though, you've piqued my appetite even more for reading "Magic Mountain"."

I am also very interested in reading Magic Mountain. The idea was to launch another group after t..."

You can count me in on a read of The Magic Mountain. I find Mann fascinating.

Kalliope wrote: "Mike wrote: "Kris wrote: "Kalliope wrote:
I am not saying that autism and its derivatives did not exist in the 19th century but that in a world with no penicillin and in which urban hygene was in ..."

*grin* Not picking a fight here. But I spent the evening with my professor who taught History and Systems of Psychology. We sipped good Scotch, and discussed Buddenbrooks and the state of psychology and its development in Germany. It was an interesting evening to say the least. Picking up on Gundula's comment above, that was essentially my professor's position. As you say, just some thoughts. We will both discover Mann's conclusion upon finishing the book. However, it is clear that the decline of the family is accelerating, with (view spoiler)[Thomas showing Christopher the door out of the family business. (hide spoiler)]

When I wrote about women dabbling in the arts, I was referring to other people's opinions. Gerda, of course, was very serious about it, to the exclusion of everything else. I wonder if she married Thomas because he would allow her free reign to perform. She seems a cold fish and had already turned down other proposals. She had told her father that she never intended to marry.

Gerda clearly wants to keep her distance from Thomas' family. She is an outsider to Buddenbrooks' social circle. Diane, I think your description of her as a cold fish is a perfect definition of her personality.

Aspects of the way religion is being presented reminds me of Silas Marner. It's not religion in and of itself that is being criticized (though it does seem to make the younger Buddenbrooks rather nervous), but rather the severe, aescetic, overly-pious strains of religion. I thought Tony's conversation with Thomas gave a good deal of perspective: "We're all weak human beings with sinful hearts, and if they want to look down on me as a miserable worldly woman, why, I'll just laugh in their faces. I've always been of the opinion that all men are equal, and that we don't need any middlemen between us and our God."

The Jerusalem meetings definitely put me in mind of the religious sect that Silas Marner was a part of. They also put me in mind of the film "Babette's Feast" -- if you haven't seen it, it's marvelous.

On a different note, I've been intrigued by the accents and idioms used for various characters in the Woods translation. Especially the presentation of Herr Permaneder. His accent makes him seem like an oddly dressed Texan, and I'm curious to hear from those reading this in the original as to what it's meant to approximate. Are the accents representative of actual different dialects? Or just differences in socio-economic and cultural backgrounds? I'd be interested in any insights from the German readers among us.

Thank you Beth for raising that question. I was bothered by the accent also, although to me he sounded like a hillbilly from Kentucky. It almost seemed farcical to have a German from the south sound like an American hick. I realize that dialects can't be easily translated but it seems extreme. What kind of city was Munich at the time? Was the accent indicative of his class or the region where he lived?

I think Jan-Maat may be able to contribute here...

I am enclosing a link to a map on German Dialects.

I will only say that even though the part of Germany I know best is Bavaria, I have a hard time understanding Bairisch.



Here is the link if the pasted map is too small.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater...

Kalliope wrote: "I think Jan-Maat may be able to contribute here..."

Maybe. I had a long response ready but thought better of it. You see I am neither Bavarian nor Texan but translating the one as the other seems from what little I know of both cultures very appropriate, if tongue in cheek, *ahem*.

Beth's question about actual dialects, socio-economic differences or cultural differences is a bit complex to my mind because the answer I would say is - yes, all three ;)

Herr Permaneder is meant to be from Nuremburg but works in Munich, I'm not familiar enough with those southern accents to work out what he's saying - but both are entirely distinct, er technically Ostfraenkisch and Mittelbairisch respectively. Anyway that is a regional marker, as Kipling has the lower class soldier talk in phonetic versions (if you speak RP) of English dialects in Soldiers Three. But since he can't communicate in comprehensible Hochdeutsch (say standard German) that is a socio-economic/cultural marker as he clearly hasn't had a high level of education and hasn't travelled much or lived outside of Southern Germany.

The Platt is interesting too. The use of Platt places the novel firmly in the Luebeck region, but the switch from the eldest Buddenbrook using it in conversation among the family to the following generations only using it to talk to lower class people reminds me a bit of War and Peace. Possibly it is meant to show that the Buddenbrooks don't have a narrow regional sense of identity but increasingly a broader German sense of identity or that they have anyroad broader perspectives from dealing with Riga, Holland or Britain etc. During the mid 19th century writers like Klaus Groth and Fritz Reuter were using Platt to write literature - so it wasn't impossible or out of the question for the middle classes to use it to sophisticated ends but the Buddenbrooks are marching to a different drum.

Kalliope wrote: "I think Jan-Maat may be able to contribute here...

I am enclosing a link to a map on German Dialects.

I will only say that even though the part of Germany I know best is Bavaria, I have a hard ti..."

So do many Germans, dialects are not always that easy and Low German dialects are actually closer to Dutch, Friesian and Anglo Saxon than they are to high (or upper) German dialects.

Fritz Reuter, Das Leben Auf Dem Lande = Ut Mine Stromtid

And the first Harry Potter book has also been translated into Platt, Harry Potter un de Wunnersteen

Jan-Maat wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I think Jan-Maat may be able to contribute here..."

Maybe. I had a long response ready but thought better of it. You see I am neither Bavarian nor Texan but translating the one one as the other seems from what little I know of both cultures very appropriate, if tongue in cheek, *ahem*...."

Thanks, Jan-Maat, very helpful. And interesting that the Bavarian/Texan comparison has at least stereotypical or tongue in cheek similarities! I suppose that makes it a good translation choice, though I agree with Gary that the American hick accent in a German novel seems somewhat farcical.

Thanks for posting the map, Kalliope! Very interesting.

Beth wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I think Jan-Maat may be able to contribute here..."

Maybe. I had a long response ready but thought better of it. You see I am neither Bavarian nor Texan but tra..."

Now I am glad that I am rereading the book in German. I mean, it's one thing to show dialects and differences of idiom, but Bavarian dialect, Plattdeutsch etc. are bona fide linguistic dialects, they are not generally lower class jargon (although some people might consider them thus).

Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition and his uncouth behavior? Staying with the Texan comparison, his clothing also seemed like a parody, with the Tyrolean hat substituting for a Texan's ten-gallon hat.

Gary wrote: "Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition and his uncouth behavior? Staying with the Texan compari..."

Permaneder is definitely uncouth, but Bavarians (even today) often still wear their traditional costumes (Trachten) with pride (of course, Thomas Mann night have found this ridiculous and deliberately dressed Permaneder in a traditional outfit in order for him to appear ridiculous, but the traditional costumes of German regions, or European regions, even if perhaps in today's world, they are often depicted as slightly ridiculous and used more for dress-up, were definitely not originally seen as thus).

Thanks Gundula,

I would guess that Texan's wear their hats and boots with a similar sense of pride (although city-slickers like me may wince.) I'm guessing that the Buddenbrooks were willing to overlook plenty to marry off poor Tony.

Gary wrote: "Thanks Gundula,

I would guess that Texan's wear their hats and boots with a similar sense of pride (although city-slickers like me may wince.) I'm guessing that the Buddenbrooks were willing to ov..."

And Tony also seems that way (especially with Permaneder). After Grünlich, I hoped that both her family and she would have become a bit more careful (especially since Permaneder's behaviour was always rather uncouth).

I was surprised that this was the man she reported so favorably on after her time spent in Munich. If I recall correctly, she had said he was someone she could talk with in a city where she had found it difficult to find companionship. Perhaps that made him appear a bit different than he did once he visited Meng Strasse. But still she marries him!

This is part of their race to the bottom, I guess. More sacrifice to uphold the family honor which is bound to backfire eventually. Does anyone remember what his teeth were like?

Gary wrote: "This is part of their race to the bottom, I guess. More sacrifice to uphold the family honor which is bound to backfire eventually. Does anyone remember what his teeth were like?"

No I don't remember his teeth! So many other details...

Permaneder was a surprise to me as well. To have him talk like a southern redneck was a bit of a shock, but maybe all cultures have similar "types". I think Tony was so desperate to remarry and remove the stain upon the family of her divorce that she overlooked his rough edges. And he seemed to be a kind man.

Sue wrote: "If I recall correctly, she had said he was someone she could talk with in a city where she had found it difficult to find companionship."

She also mentioned that he was the only protestant that she met in Munich.

Hello everyone,

The discussion on Permaneder when he shows up in Lübeck...etc actually belongs to next week's read.

Can you proceed to post this discussion in the thread for Week 4?.

For anyone who wants to read ahead and post comments, these can be entered any time as long as they belong to the right section/thread of the book...

This is just to keep the Group site more organized.

Thank you everyone.