The Thomas Mann Group discussion

Kalliope wrote: "I am with you in this. Although my view of Christian is still very sketchy, I am inclined towards seeing him as just disaffected with his family. It is remarkable how little interest they have shown in knowing more about his life while he was abroad. I myself wanted to know more about what he did in Valparaíso. Buty they are a contented family very much satisfied with their own world. ..."

I have now caught up with the reading and the entire discussion.
I've enjoyed the analysis of Christian's possible health issues but I'm wondering if Mann is just creating another interesting portrait as he has done with Kesselmeyer and Permaneder. When he chooses, he can give these very detailed and intriguing pen portraits, focussing on particular aspects of a character's appearance or personality. Some of the principal characters escape this close focus; Johann, Tom and Frau Consul, Tony is given some detailed treatment but in the main, the close focus is reserved for more minor characters, which Christian is in a way, as he is more absent than present. In Christian's case, it is his phantom feelings that get the focus - but I do think his fear of choking on a peach stone in the early pages was interesting although I'd hesitate to use it to make a diagnosis about him. What I'm saying is that Mann can create colourful characters when he chooses, characters who are more than 'types'. That's why Tony is interesting - she has surprising facets to her personality and while she seems sometimes to be just a ditzy blonde, concerned with clothes, furnishings and gossip, she surprises us sometimes too.

I agree that Tony is a most interesting character. She has many good qualities but I'm wondering if people are surprised by her relationship with Erica, her daughter. Is it that Mann didn't much care about his characters until they become adults or is it that it was typical for children to be raised out of sight in wealthy families? Elisabeth also seemed mostly absent when her children were young. Going back to the grandparents' time, they seemed to take a more active interest in the children (ie Thomas, Christian, and Tony). Is this another symptom of the family's decline?

Gary wrote: "I agree that Tony is a most interesting character. She has many good qualities but I'm wondering if people are surprised by her relationship with Erica, her daughter. Is it that Mann didn't much ca..."

I think it was certainly the case in many wealthy or aristocratic families both in continental Europe and in the British Isles for children to be raised by nannies, nurses and for the parents to have not much to do with them at all. In France, for instance, babies were actually often even raised on farms by wet nurses for sometimes up to five or even six years. Maybe this is a symptom of decline, but it could also be the Buddenbrooks imitating French or English customs (or simply wealthy European custom).

Gary wrote: "I agree that Tony is a most interesting character. She has many good qualities but I'm wondering if people are surprised by her relationship with Erica, her daughter. Is it that Mann didn't much ca..."

Her relationship with Erica is like a parallel of her grandfather's with his son, Gottfried; in each case, there is a reason to distance themselves from the child. This is made easier by the presence of nurse maids and the childrearing habits of the time although Mann described Clara being the centre of attention when she was little, as was Tony herself. We do get the impression that Tony's focus is not on being a full-time mother, that she is not perfectly suited to it.

Gary wrote: "I agree that Tony is a most interesting character. She has many good qualities but I'm wondering if people are surprised by her relationship with Erica, her daughter. Is it that Mann didn't much ca..."

Apart from what Gundula says, Tony also sees the father in her daughter.

Kalliope wrote: "Gary wrote: "I agree that Tony is a most interesting character. She has many good qualities but I'm wondering if people are surprised by her relationship with Erica, her daughter. Is it that Mann d..."

Tony seeing Grünlich in Erika is definitely part and parcel to her distance, not fair for the child (and neither was it fair for Gottfried to be blamed to be less loved because the fact that his mother died giving birth to him).

As I recall, Johann Sr objected to Ida Jungmann for filling Tony's head with nonsense. She raised all of his grandchildren as well as Erika, his great granddaughter. I wonder what kind of relationship Mann had with his own mother?

Gary wrote: "As I recall, Johann Sr objected to Ida Jungmann for filling Tony's head with nonsense. She raised all of his grandchildren as well as Erika, his great granddaughter. I wonder what kind of relations..."

Ida Jungmann is a curious choice of name, isn't it?

I did some research (ah, the joys of retirement) and discovered that the Mann family had a nanny named Ida Springer who lived with them until he was 14. It is likely that he based Ida Jungmann on her. If you recall, Ida Jungmann was a snob who was acutely aware of the social status of Tony's friends. She must had a great deal of influence on both Tony and Tom about the exalted status of the family.

Thanks,Gary. I love people who do research!

Me too! Thanks Gary. And I hadn't even noticed her name being Jungmann!

Gary wrote: "Thank you Beth for raising that question. I was bothered by the accent also, although to me he sounded like a hillbilly from Kentucky. It almost seemed farcical to have a German from the south sound like an American hick. I realize that dialects can't be easily translated but it seems extreme. What kind of city was Munich at the time? Was the accent indicative of his class or the region where he lived? "

This is what Mann wrote to his best friend at age 20, after he had recently moved to Munich: "This Munich, I never confessed this before, but I've had enough of it. It's the most illiterate city par excellence - filled with banal women and healthy men. God knows how much contempt I put into that word, 'healthy.' It invoked all the horrors of physical education: "And the last straw...is the fresh, pious, delirious attitude toward gymnastics."

Apparently gymnastics and the cult of the body, and various forms of physical therapy, had become a big fad in Munich.

Lobstergirl good to have you back! I was almost beginning to miss you...
Munich may have had the cult of (personality) the body but when it comes to Herr Permaneder,he has neither looks nor brains– Tony has put a romantic spin on his image clearly out of her frustration to escape her situation– the geographical situation of going down from North to South is also indicative of further fall down in her situation. This marriage was so unnecessary!

Hi. The marriage was unnecessary to us.
As a divorced woman of 30, she couldn't go out in her home town. Respectable women wouldn't even say hello to Tony on the street. She wasn't invited to dinners or parties.
She married to get away. I guess it's like running away from home with your mother's blessing. She hoped that her bad reputation wouldn't follow her.
Permanender isn't a hunk or maybe he was (lol), but he's the physical opposite of her first husband . She thought, mistakenly , that this was a good thing.
I feel bad for poor Tony. She is disgraced because two scheming men have married her for her dowry and they have been poor stewards of her money.

At the risk of sounding superficial, I've been struck by how few physically attractive characters there are in this novel. Tony's husbands are possibly the least prepossessing, but they're in competition with quite a few others in that department. It's rather poignant that not only did Tony have to marry scheming and unpleasant men for family and social reasons, she didn't even get men whose good looks might have provided some solace when she looked at them across the breakfast table.

I agree with Suzanne about Tony's reasons for wanting to marry again. She was desperate to recover her social position back and I guess her own vanity also played an important role in her hurried decision, it was kind saddening to witness her redoubled efforts to make a better choice this second time.

As for physical appearances go, I think Morten was the only male character who seemed handsome and slender. I don't know whether the fact that he was radically different from the other characters both in his social background and his Marxist ideals had something to do with his good looks, and if that could have been an underlying message from Mann.
Decaying society with yellowish characters vs a new era with strong and sparkling generation?

Decaying society with yellowish characters vs a new era with strong and sparkling generation?
I think that idea also appears in the description of teeth in this novel. Thomas' wife has sparkling teeth but Thomas' teeth are yellow.

Kim wrote: "men whose good looks might have provided some solace when she looked at them across the breakfast table. "

Heh.

I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quite the actress.

I think this novel revolves around religious piety and strict observance of Christian values, and that the decline of family will come from the decline in religious behavior. Already, there is a frowned upon divorce, an obsession with the theater, and who knows what else will follow.

I have to say I enjoyed reading the part:

"I have occassionally given some thought to that sort of useless curiousity and preoccupation with one's self- because I tended to be that way myself at one time. But I realized it left me unstable, erratic, out of control. And for me the important thing is control and balance. There will always be people for whom this sort of interest in oneself, this probing observation of one's own sensibilities, is appropriate- poets for instance, who are capable of expressing their innner life, which they prize so much, with assurance and beauty, thereby enriching the emotional life of other people. (Mann 259)

This inward-looking attention to oneself was probably considered shameful behavior.

Good you brought up that quote,Reem– it answers Dolors' earlier post. To complete it:
"But we are just simple merchants,my dear,our self-observations are dreary and petty...What we should do,damn it,is to sit ourselves down and accomplish something just as our forbears did!"

Tom is being practical here: to a businessman,solipsism is a luxury,they can ill afford. It also shows Tom's opinion of their ie the Buddenbrooks' so called artistic sensibilities.
Religion is definitely there but is not the sole reason for the family's decline.

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quite the actress.

I think this novel revolves around religious piety and strict observance of ..."

This is a great quote.

I see Religion as a bit more complicated. We saw the rationalist Johann the Elder succeeded by the more Purtitanical son. And it is not Christianity, since the Bavarian Catholicism seems repugnant. Tony also has a hard time dealing with all the black men showing up at her family's house...

Religion appears as a main topic, but I don't think it is presented always in a favourable light.

Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quite the actress.

I think this novel revolves around religious p..."

Interesting Kalliope, my feeling as I was reading was that this was a very tradtional, very religious family and that morality had a lot to do with the family's social standing, respect wise. I felt that it was the reason the father married his daughter off to the first suitor that came along. I of course am aware of their financial situation, but feel that the appearance of being pious played a big role in German society in those days. They needed to be good, church going citizens. Now that the father has passed away, I don't know that the next generation will be able to keep up the respect for the family name.

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quite the actress.

I think this novel revolves a..."

Exactly Reem, and it also seems obvious that this new generation are mostly indifferent about religion. New business era, new believes (or lack of believes)...waves of changes seem to be approaching in different fronts.

Mann was such a keen observer, he may have recorded Asperer's symptoms without knowing a name for the condition.

Elena wrote: "Mann was such a keen observer, he may have recorded Asperer's symptoms without knowing a name for the condition."

And none of these conditions had names, were recognised in those days (but that certainly did not mean that they did not exist).

Dolors wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quite the actress.
..."

When I last commented I thought I had caught up with you all but I was actually still behind which was why I was surprised to see some comments about Gerda and her white teeth, and I was thinking who the heck is Gerda?! It turns out that she is "the mother of future Buddenbrooks." Did anyone find it strange that she didn't get married until she was 27? With her dowry,one would have thought that she would have had men lining up at the door.

Dolors, do you like me laugh everytime Tony talks about "life" and calls herself a silly goose?

Did anyone find it odd that Tom signed his letter with just the letter T. and how this has become very common practice these days as well?

Appearances, appearances, it seems that "society" has been and always will be ruled by appearances. "The family enjoyed the best of reputations, and the firm the finest of credit..." and that really is what it's all about.

Dolors wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quite the actress.
..."

When I last commented I thought I had caught up with you all but I was actually still behind which was why I was surprised to see some comments about Gerda and her white teeth, and I was thinking who the heck is Gerda?! It turns out that she is "the mother of future Buddenbrooks." Did anyone find it strange that she didn't get married until she was 27? With her dowry,one would have thought that she would have had men lining up at the door.

Dolors, do you like me laugh everytime Tony talks about "life" and calls herself a silly goose?

Did anyone find it odd that Tom signed his letter with just the letter T. and how this has become very common practice these days as well?

Appearances, appearances, it seems that "society" has been and always will be ruled by appearances. "The family enjoyed the best of reputations, and the firm the finest of credit..." and that really is what it's all about.

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Dolors wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She loves role playing and is quit..."

If I remember correctly, I think it was mentioned that Gerda initially didn't plan to marry but was won over by Tom. I don't recall any further details.

Sue wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Dolors wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the divorce. She ..."

Yes Sue, she had supposedly resolved to never marry, perhaps to care for her widower father, but isn't that very odd for that time period to choose to be a spinster? Maybe as a young woman set to inherit her millionaire father, she didn't need a man to take care of her and could remain single and free. Then pretentious Tom comes along with his extraordinary wardrobe down to his underwear(lol) and then suddenly they are officially engaged. I see a power couple in these two.

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Sue wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Dolors wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I too was surprised that Tony kept her married name after the d..."

I love your description of them as a power couple (and his underwear). And pretentious certainly applies to the new home! Gerda seems to have a very strong sense of self, independent of her father or husband, unlike the other females in the novel.

Gerda is a fairy tale ice queen...

Elena wrote: "Gerda is a fairy tale ice queen..."

Except fairy tale ice queens are never part of a power couple (or at least I can't think of an example...).

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "

I think this novel revolves a..."

Reem,

I completely agree with you in that religion is important, and that it forms part of the morals and the culture and tradition (North mostly Protestant and South mostly catholic) of this family.

What I meant is that Religion is not treated in a monolithic manner. Nor do I find a pattern in the generations. As it has been commented, the Grand-Father (Johann the Elder) was a Rationalist and made fun of Religion, which irritated Johann the Younger. The latter’s wife turns more religious once she becomes a widow and starts having all these Church-Men over (the Jerusalem group) at the house. And then his children vary. Tom follows tradition and religion is part of that, Christian just wants to have fun (he is a bit of a clown), Tony is religious but cannot stand those Churchmen or the Catholics, and then Clara is very very religious and forms part of that Church grouping in the house. Clara is the opposite to Christian and to my mind the most boring character.

We’ll see with the coming generations….

Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "

I think this novel revolves a..."

Reem,

I completely agree with you in that religion is important, and that it forms part of the morals and the culture and tradit..."

Kalliope, I see what you mean and how you break it down among the family members. What will be interesting to see is who conforms and who doesn't. From my reading, I just picked up on being proper and honorable and well respected in the appearance driven world meant that they had to be people of good moral standing by being outwardly religious. I think the widow became religious because it brought her respectability after her husband died, just as Tony's dress and self-imprisonment in her father's home after her divorce made her appear the poor victim.

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I just picked up on being proper and honorable and well respected in the appearance driven world meant that they had to be people of good moral standing by being outwardly religious. ..."

Yes, I think this is completely right. Religion brings outward respectability and also internal reassurance that their values and way of life were blessed by god.

Kalliope wrote: "Yes, I think this is completely right. Religion brings outward respectability and also internal reassurance that their values and way of life were blessed by god. "

Hmm I just checked and saw that Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism wasn't published until 1905, still I suppose the idea was in the Zeitgeist.

The Buddenbrooks are trying to maintain stability in a world that is shifting under their feet and they don't know why. Simple business calculations are no longer enough in the uncertain world of economic integration. The Zollverein is discussed with mixed feelings. Some Buddenbrooks then turn to religion for security, and want to conduct business in a moral way compatible with their notion of religion. This only makes them susceptible to swindlers. Gerda is interesting because she lives in the amoral world of music, beautiful but somehow dangerous because it has its own rules outside economics and religion and the Buddenbrooks are tone deaf.

Jan-Maat wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Yes, I think this is completely right. Religion brings outward respectability and also internal reassurance that their values and way of life were blessed by god. "

Hmm I just che..."

LOL.. I think the idea that god blesses one's actions is a very common one to most religions and most periods of history...!!

Elena wrote: "The Buddenbrooks are trying to maintain stability in a world that is shifting under their feet and they don't know why. Simple business calculations are no longer enough in the uncertain world of e..."

Yes, I agree.. We are getting indication in the novel about what was happening in the business of grain trading, but it is a notoriously difficult business.. between weather, wars, changes in distribution channels, and commercial laws amongst other factors.

I've been trying to understand why I care about Tony and Tom, when I know the ending is sad...the scenes on the Travemuende coast of the Baltic Sea are the most poetic in the book, and the characters respond to the sense of eternity the sea inspires, so empires rise and fall, but the sea is always there. The resort music is part of it. I was in Copenhagen a few months back, stayed at the Admiral Hotel, a remodeled grain warehouse on the harbor, with massive wooden beams and thick stone walls meant to withstand time. There is a Nordic ethic here somewhere...I'm grateful that Mann doesn't make this too schematic, just suggestive..

Gundula wrote: "Gary wrote: "Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition and his uncouth behavior? Staying with the ..."

As Austrian, I'm reading the novel in German, of course, and I really consider this a privilege as the parts in Platt and Bavarian are wonderfully crafted in my opinion. My home town isn't far away from Munich so the dialect is very familiar to me. Mann did a great job in depicting an authentic citizen of Munich at his times (and some of them haven't changed that much, really...). Gundula, you're absolutely correct with your comments on traditional costumes and everything else you’ve said above.

Honestly, I had been wondering about how they would choose to translate the parts in dialect which must have been quite an issue of importance for the translator. I winced a little bit when I imagined Permaneder talking like a Texan, but then I'm not familiar enough with US accents and what they might convey.

I don't agree with everyone considering Mann's portray of Permaneder as an entirely negative one. He's very considerate towards Tony's dauther, Erika, and he's pleasant enough in his own way. I think he's just very displaced in Northern Germany and in an aristocratic family like this. In Bavaria, even the aristocracy would have been talking similar to Permaneder and the difference in the use of Hochdeutsch/Bavarian towards Hochdeutsch/Platt seems to be really a regional one. As some others have pointed out, the older members of the family still mixed their speech at home with Platt, while Thomas only speaks it to lower classes. In Bavaria, the dialect spoken by Permaneder wasn't considered lower class, I think. In Munich, until today speaking Bavarian the way he does, brands one as being "originally from the city" which is contrasted to people who've moved there from other parts in Germany and who are sometimes looked down at by the "Müncher Originale" (originals from Munich who are at the same time proudly original in their behaviour).
I found that Mann shows the irony with which the Buddenbrooks look down on Permaneder with some hint of irony towards themselves. They really see themselves as the centre of the world, while in reality they are just big fish in a small pond. Someone has pointed out that Christian could also just be alienated from his family by his experiences abroad and I see some parallel there. The Buddenbrooks are completely absorbed in their own Northern-German culture and their own circles and they’re not really interested in broadening their horizons towards different ways of living. Christian often tries to convey some of his fascination for life in Chile or in London, but they just don’t care because they have no idea of what’s going on outside of their little world. Also, the 1848 revolution showed that Lübeck was a rather provincial city with an almost ridiculous “revolt”.
Sorry for this really long post – I hope everything is understandable.

Julia wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Gary wrote: "Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition and his uncouth behavior? S..."

Julia,

These are excellent comments and I agree with you in that Permaneder is not bad after all. I made that point in Week 4 (# 81). The same thing goes for the lack of interest that his family was showing in what Christian had seen in London and Valparaíso. I also commented on this somewhere. That is why I was not surprised that Christian liked to continue talking about the places he had seen even if his family showed no interest. To him they were fascinating experiences.

I should add that Mann keeps talking about Valparaíso as if it were a place in the tropics, which it isn't. The weather in that Southern part of the American continent is similar to the Mediterranean or to California.

I thought the family's reaction to Permaneder's transgression, was actually funny in a slightly perverse way. Attacking the cook, well, a wife should look the other way, but Bavarian manners, well the Buddenbrooks understood that could be unbearable for Tony...regional differences are an important part of the story...from what some of you have pointed out, it is still an important part of the German story....In Mann's speech in Luebeck in the 1920s he said he was astonished that the book was liked in other parts of Germany and other parts of Europe even...(and not always appreciated in Luebeck)--

I agree with Julia, there is definitely less of a stigma towards dialect in the South than in the North of Germany and that (in my opinion) is a very good thing. I mean, I was born in Hannover, but even though Hannover is technically an area where Low German would have been spoken, it is generally now considered a city where the "most standard German" is spoken (generally because Platt was considered lower class and everyone was encouraged to learn standard German). I actually know less Low German (less Platt) than southern German (Baden) dialect because my mother's side of the family is from the Lake of Constance and in their family, dialect was both spoken and acceptable and not at all considered lesser or lower class, while in my father's family (from around Hannover), only his paternal grandparents (whom I never met as they died long before I was born) still spoke a bit of Plattdeutsch and were actually told not to speak Platt to the grandchildren (my father and his siblings).

Julia wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Gary wrote: "Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition and his uncouth behavior? S..."

I love long posts... Very interesting details there,Julia!
I too had mixed feelings abt Permaneder- felt the marriage broke more under the romantic gloss Tony put upon him & her situation than his actual self contributing so much to it.

Mala wrote: "Julia wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Gary wrote: "Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition and his uncou..."

I think that Tony's first excursion to Munich was a success because everything seemed exotic and fun. Permaneder was well regarded in the city and he didn't stick out as uneducated as he was just the same as everyone else. When she actually moved to Bavaria, the exotic flair started to wane away quite rapidly and Tony felt alienated. I think everyone who's lived abroad for a while can understand her feelings. I've lived in Spain for a year and - even though I love the country and its people and I count my time there as one of the best in my life - I went through a period in which I felt unnerved by little details like people not saying "Thank you" as much as we would do in Austria or Spanish friends not enjoying Austrian food I had prepared for them with much love - things very similar to those which annoyed Tony in Munich. It took a while to adjust after the first enthusiasm.

Tony is so entirely a Buddenbrook that probably she'd feel uprooted in many places. Her admiration for her forefathers and brother Tom and the importance she attributes to her family need Lübeck as a background. In Bavaria nobody cares about her status or is even aware of it. Plus, Permaneder's lack of ambition just doesn't fit her ever-hungry attitude towards life.

Agree with everything you wrote there- culture shocks need time to be absorbed/ adjusted to.

Julia wrote: "Mala wrote: "Julia wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Gary wrote: "Thank you everyone. Is it fair to speculate that Mann intended to portray Permaneder as a bit ridiculous, foreshadowing his lack of ambition ..."

That was exactly my point in Wk 4 #90. One thing is to visit and another one to actually live in the place. And Tony herself admits to the brother that the issue was not his husband's philandering but that she did not fit in.

Julia, your experiences in living in Spain are very similar to those of my Bavarian friends...:).

I have also had the opposite experience. I have visited a place that I did not like and then had to go and live there and loved it.

Don't you all think that Tony was somehow disappointed at Permaneder's lack of ambition, especially in relation to his not investing her dowry in the business. She would have liked to belong to a business family on a par with her family back in Lübeck. I think that was her principal disappointment, not Munich or the man himself but the lack of status.

Fionnuala wrote: "Don't you all think that Tony was somehow disappointed at Permaneder's lack of ambition, especially in relation to his not investing her dowry in the business. She would have liked to belong to a b..."

Well, I think that was part of the North-South cultural divide.. the industrious or "fleissig" versus the lazy or "faul".