The Thomas Mann Group discussion

Jonathan wrote: "but I haven't had any feeling that there's any lust between them. ..."

I agree. Women were brought up to expect (and need?) a male presence next to them, from fathers to brothers to husbands to sons.

In Tony's case, given her failed marriages and given that Tom is taking up the role of the father, particularly when the latter dies, she was bound to look at her brother as her support.

Remember that even when she was sent to spend some months at the seaside, her brother had to chaperone her and then go and pick her up.

But Tom seems to view Tony as a sort of surrogate wife. First she decorates his house then she stands in as his political ally: at one point he even credits her with his success. It seems reciprocal and kind of strange...

Gary wrote: "But Tom seems to view Tony as a sort of surrogate wife. First she decorates his house then she stands in as his political ally: at one point he even credits her with his success. It seems reciproc..."

Well, knowing that someone needs you makes you feel more important. And feeling important is redundantly important for Tom.

They are all very conscious of belonging to a clan, and that is why when Christian turns out to be more of a scoundrel it is such a disappointment.

It seems that as far as Tony is concerned, no one can measure up to her father when he lived, and then her brother. I kept thinking as I was reading that it was a shame Tony was female; she would have been a great business partner for Tom. She certainly cared more for the firm than their other brother, and Clara was always sort of a shadow character. I wonder if that's why Mann gave her a male nickname?

Diane wrote: "It seems that as far as Tony is concerned, no one can measure up to her father when he lived, and then her brother. I kept thinking as I was reading that it was a shame Tony was female; she would ..."

Yes, that is true. And she enjoyed learning about other political views (wha Morten taught her)-- the only time she got at all close to these more manly concerns.

I never viewed the relationship between Tony and Tom in romantic terms, Gary.
My impression was that Tony tried to live her once dreamed life through her brother's. In her eyes, Tom & Gerda shared a peaceful and balanced marriage, the one she never had neither with Grünlich nor with Permander.
It's like she needed to live other people's lives to make up for the failures of her own, but I don't think there was a romantic link between brother and sister. It's like Tony was playing a kind of wish-believe game, maybe even unconsciously, generating an attitude close to veneration to her own created idols that she might replicate in the future with other characters.

I didn't mean to suggest that it was a conscious attraction or that they would ever act on it, but it might suggest another facet of the family's decline: the two most stable members were either unhappy(Tom) or unsuccessful (Tony) in their marriages. Tom's midlife crisis seems pretty extreme and the person consoling him is Tony.

I think there is a Mann story with sibling incest - Blood of the Walsungs 1905.

There is a peculiar quality to the Tony-Tom relationship, but then Tony is odd herself if not quite as unnormal as Christian so it might be par for the course.

I could certainly go along with Kalliope's suggestion that Tom is a Father substitute.

A question for the German readers: what is Tony's nickname in German. In English, Tony spelled with a "y" is usually used only for males. By 19th century standards, Tony demonstrated some masculine interests and not wasn't very maternal. People have already suggested that she would have made a better brother for Tom than Christian was. What, if anything, can be made of this given Mann's repressed homosexuality?

Tom's midlife crisis seems pretty extreme and the person consoling him is Tony.
You are right about that, although I thought Tom was a bit severe and unsupportive when Tony asked for his help with her second failed marriage.
I also wonder about the lack of empathy between the Frau Consul Elisabeth and her siblings, she seems to be completely impassive about their unhappiness or problems, she is, in fact, out of the picture. I find her such a flat character...I don't know if there is an implicit criticism towards the utilitarian figure of motherhood among the bourgeois. Gerda and Tony don't appear as devoted mothers either...

I agree completely regarding Elisabeth's detachment from everyone: siblings, children, nieces etc. Ironic isn't it, given her religious fervor?

Gary wrote: "A question for the German readers: what is Tony's nickname in German."

Also Tony in my edition. Tom is Tom as well.

Dolors wrote: "I also wonder about the lack of empathy between the Frau Consul Elisabeth and her siblings, she seems to be completely impassive about their unhappiness or problems, she is, in fact, out of the picture."

Maybe she views their unhappiness and/or problems as a reflection of their standing with God, and is therefore loath to get involved or even taint herself too much.

Kalliope wrote: ".....The narrator keeps his distance, there is sometimes an ironic tone, but it is neither a parody nor is it moralistic (so far)."

The narrator does seem to take an ironic tone from time to time, and very noticeably in this week's reading during the episode of the choosing of godfathers for the heir. In fact, in this piece, the narrator takes on a kind of Greek chorus role. He speaks in the voice of the townspeople:
And the second godfather?.....Dr Överdieck. It is a great event - a triumph! Good heavens, how could it have come about? he is hardly even a relative! The Buddenbrooks must have dragged the old man by the hair!
Then the narrator slides back very gently and smoothly into his usual more neutral position, the recording voice we get so much of:
In fact it is rather a feat: a little intrigue planned by the Consul and Madame Permaneder. At first it was merely a joke, born of the great relief of knowing that mother and child were safe. "A boy, Tony," cried the Consul. "He aught to have the Burgomeister for godfather!" But she took it up in earnest, whereupon he considered the matter seriously and agreed to make a trial...
I'm also wondering if there is a parallel between the Narrator's ironic and neutral tones and the use of formal names versus intimate ones. Sometimes the narrator uses the name Thomas, at other times, he calls him the Consul. Equally with Tony, she is often Frau Grünlich or Frau Permaneder but sometimes simply Tony - and I'm not talking here about dialogue. What I'm picking up is a kind of dual narrative voice. Is anyone else picking this up?

Many of you have commented on the bond between Tom and Tony. I too feel this bond growing stronger but it is Tony who is forcing the change. Her character is evolving and while some of her former characteristics are simply growing more pronounced, she is branching out in new directions as well. I imagine her increasing in stature, becoming more matriarchal, almost monumental, perhaps finally carrying the entire Buddenbrook clan almost alone, the final keeper of the record. That's just my interpretation at the moment.

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: ".....The narrator keeps his distance, there is sometimes an ironic tone, but it is neither a parody nor is it moralistic (so far)."

The narrator does seem to take an ironic tone f..."

Yes, I can see how Tony is, in spite of the odds against her, becoming more of a fighter. She was determined to get the divorce from Permaneder and for this she went and studied all the legal aspects to see if she could find a way out.

Thanks Fionnuala for suggesting that the shift in the narrator's use of names is there for a reason. I'm going to start paying more attention.

Chapter 5 has some ominous things occurring: the property Tom selects for his dream house belonged to an old spinster from a long forgotten family and it is across the street from a florist shop. To make matters worse, Ida Jungmann is moving in to raise Hanno.

And the florist's wife? Her name isn't mentioned but her identity is foreshadowed, I think, by Tom's reaction to seeing her.

I feel sorry for little Ha no. So many dreams and expectations are riding on his little shoulders.

Sue wrote: "And the florist's wife? Her name isn't mentioned but her identity is foreshadowed, I think, by Tom's reaction to seeing her."

And the florist's wife's keen but cool interest in the senator's wife. It is a very interesting insight into Tom's character that he should choose to build his future home opposite this particular florist.
And in parallel to that story, we hear Tony quoting Morten's sayings from many years before like a mantra. So will things come full circle, we wonder?

Fionnuala wrote: "Sue wrote: "And the florist's wife? Her name isn't mentioned but her identity is foreshadowed, I think, by Tom's reaction to seeing her."

And the florist's wife's keen but cool interest in the sen..."
I think Anna Iwersen and Morten are keys to the story. They have vitality and intelligence that the BB are losing..

Fionnuala wrote: "it is Tony who is forcing the change. Her character is evolving and while some of her former characteristics are simply growing more pronounced, she is branching out in new directions as well. I imagine her increasing in stature, becoming more matriarchal, almost monumental, perhaps finally carrying the entire Buddenbrook clan almost alone, the final keeper of the record. "

I wonder how much of Thomas Mann is there in Tony, pushing and asserting himself into the world. By writing the novel making himself a monumental novelist, giving (re)birth as a matriarch to a family of characters, perhaps also in Tony's comment to Morten implying his politics reflect his personal feeling of social exclusion?

One critic suggested that Tom and Hanno reflected the two sides of Mann but I think Jan-Maat's idea makes more sence. Tony kept trying to conform to the expectations of society without success and, although she encouraged Tom in his political and business endeavors, her only outlet for expression was to decorate homes (for other people) and to buy clothes. She must have felt repression in the same way Mann did because of his homosexuality.

Fionnuala wrote:"I'm also wondering if there is a parallel between the Narrator's ironic and neutral tones and the use of formal names versus intimate ones. Sometimes the narrator uses the name Thomas, at other times, he calls him the Consul. Equally with Tony, she is often Frau Grünlich or Frau Permaneder but sometimes simply Tony - and I'm not talking here about dialogue. What I'm picking up is a kind of dual narrative voice. Is anyone else picking this up? "

There is no dual narrative voice here in the sense as there was in Bleak House. Mann was writing here in realistic & to some extent naturalistic tradition– the omniscient narration thus has to reflect truthfully both the inner & outer world– it would be so unnatural to refer to character either always formally or informally,hence the happy compromise. You'll see that in the narration of Middlemarch too,esp.the chorus part that you pointed out here.
I wish we were reading this book concurrently,I could've pointed out examples from the text– but you joined later & I've already moved on to other books!

Fionnuala wrote: "Sue wrote: "And the florist's wife? Her name isn't mentioned but her identity is foreshadowed, I think, by Tom's reaction to seeing her."

And the florist's wife's keen but cool interest in the sen..."

I guess that shows once & for all that Tom does have a heart! It's curious how both the siblings carry a piece of the past with them- Tom in the form of the house in the same vicinity & Tony in the form of memories.
And contrary to what some readers here think,I believe Tony would've been happy with Morten- her penchant for role playing would've ensured she played the doctor's wife to perfection & there was the added pleasure of looking at a handsome face across the breakfast table & in other parts of the house too!

Mala, I think Mann would agree with you concerning Tony and Morten. You could say the same thing about Tom. They both made unfortunate choices as young people because they were preoccupied with the stature of the family. Tom only seems more successful than Tony; he's also more dissatisfied as time passes. He was also constricted by social norms: he made all the right decisions, achieving both social and business success, but he's looking for some sort of inner satisfaction. He may find it at that florist shop across the street.

Gary wrote:"He may find it at that florist shop across the street."

(view spoiler)[If only happiness were that easy! Tom's crisis is more of an existantial nature- of inner turmoil,emptiness,meaninglessness of it all- it doesn't make sense to him that he has followed all the rules,achieved all that he could & yet there's no happiness,things are slipping from his grasp. (hide spoiler)]
And while it's true that Mann gave aspects of his own personality to both Tom & Hanno,the same can't be said of Tony– this is no Flaubert's:“Madame Bovary, c'est moi” situation- don't let your imagination run away with you!

Mala wrote: don't let your imagination run away with you! Maybe I've seen too many Hollywood films! :-)

Mala wrote: ".I guess that shows once & for all that Tom does have a heart! It's curious how both the siblings carry a piece of the past with them- Tom in the form of the house in the same vicinity & Tony in the form of memories.."

Ah, but I haven't yet read beyond this week's section and it is from that limited perspective that Tom's installing his wife very luxuriously right oppoaite his former lover's home seems mysterious and a little sinister - at least two and possibly four people being hurt at the same time.

@Jan-Maat, that is an interesting theory about Mann identifying himself with Tony. I definitely feel her to be the principle character. Fom the opening scene, there is a closer focus on her than on anyone else and I feel she will be there 'til the end, unlike her brothers perhaps or even her nephew, so it makes sense that Mann might give her some of his own thoughts and viewpoints.

Fionnuala wrote: "Mala wrote: ".I guess that shows once & for all that Tom does have a heart! It's curious how both the siblings carry a piece of the past with them- Tom in the form of the house in the same vicinity..."

Fionnuala, you should read then the article that Gary posted in the thread Online Secondary Resources. It cannot be printed but can be read online w/out having to register or anything of the sort. Very interesting, although I have only read parts (will go back to it when I have finished BB).

Message #2 in:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

To me a surprise has been that Permaneder was not a dowry-hunter after all. He was just a man from a different culture. It seems Tony has rejected him more because of if his being Bavarian, than for any other real reason.

Kalliope wrote: "To me a surprise has been that Permaneder was not a dowry-hunter after all. He was just a man from a different culture. It seems Tony has rejected him more because of if his being Bavarian, than f..."

And what I find strange and rather problematic is the fact that Tony knew that Permaneder was Bavarian. So if that bothered her, why did she marry him in the first place?

Gary wrote: "She must have felt repression in the same way Mann did because of his homosexuality. "

I had a look at that article you linked and that made me wonder if that was what was going on, I don't know, *ahem* frustrated energies needing outlets.

Gundula wrote: "what I find strange and rather problematic is the fact that Tony knew that Permaneder was Bavarian. So if that bothered her, why did she marry him in the first place? "

Yes that does suggest a scene in which Tony wakes up and realises 'oh my God, I've married a Bavarian! How did that happen?'

I had another odd thought, Tom seems to be focusing on the same trading areas as always, while Tony is maybe reaching out to this new emerging Germany, first Hamburg, then Bavaria. Does this suggest an openness to new horizons and new possibilities - even if they both go awry?

Mala wrote: "And contrary to what some readers here think,I believe Tony would've been happy with Morten- her penchant for role playing would've ensured she played the doctor's wife to perfection"

I agree with you. I think there is some irony because Doctors are going up in status during this period and we know Morton has an offical post in Breslau/Wroclaw - I think a larger town than Luebeck so she would have become quite the leading light, while the apparently 'safe' choices of husbands both turn out to be damp squibs.

A Morton marriage over the long term would have worked out I suspect completely worthy of the family chronicle.

I don't really know if a Tony & Morten marriage could have worked out, they were really different in upbringing and life expectations, but that Tony kept Morten in her mind became clear to me in the conversation she had with her brother after she left Permaneder. She said Yes, in these years I have often thought of what someone said to me once, in times gone by. A very clever man. "Your sympathies are with the nobility", he said. "Shall I tell you why? Because you yourself belong to the nobility.(...)".
To Tony Morten might have come to represent that intersection one finds only once in a lifetime, when you have to choose one way or the other. And when years later you realize you have chosen the wrong path, and you can't help looking back and imagining what your life could have been like if you had gone the other way, idealizing the other possibilty.
Tony is certainly the character I can sympathize more with, her feelings are complexly well portrayed and her reactions feel mostly natural to me.

Fionnuala wrote: "Tom's installing his wife very luxuriously right oppoaite his former lover's home seems mysterious and a little sinister - at least two and possibly four people being hurt at the same time."

Completely agree Fionnuala. The way Tom takes such great pains to have a well-off appearance is disturbing. Not only the lavish house, also his personal dressing and forbearance. And then, this later comment in chapter 5, as Gary also pointed out above Thomas Buddenbrook, though he was barely thirty-seven years old, was losing his elasticity, was wearing himself out fast. can't bring any good premonition. Too much weight on his shoulders?

Jan-Maat wrote: "Mala wrote: "And contrary to what some readers here think,I believe Tony would've been happy with Morten- her penchant for role playing would've ensured she played the doctor's wife to perfection"
..."

I also think that Tony would have been happy with Morten, not only because she would have been able to play the doctor's wife, but also because I think she and Morten were in many ways "kindred spirits" (right from the start, Tony despised Grünlich and only married him because it was what her family desired and with Permaneder, part of me thinks that she grabbed at him simply because he was available and it was socially difficult to be an unmarried woman).

Gundula wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "Mala wrote: "And contrary to what some readers here think,I believe Tony would've been happy with Morten- her penchant for role playing would've ensured she played the doctor's wif..."

Tony and Morten were definitely soul-mates at Travemuende....and channeled some of that Travemuende magic in the most lyrical section of the book so far. And that she quotes him years later without mentioning him by name...is infinitely sad in one way, but also a beautiful memory...whether it could have been possible in pre-WW I Europe for them to build a marriage together is an unanswerable question...

Gundula wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "To me a surprise has been that Permaneder was not a dowry-hunter after all. He was just a man from a different culture. It seems Tony has rejected him more because of if his being..."

One thing is to visit a place and another one is to live there.

I am wondering about the new descriptions of Tom after Tony brings the proposition to him from her friend's husband. He sounds depressed from the picture drawn, having a different physical appearance when unwatched by others, irritable with others and unable to control his reactions (poor Hanno), endlessly worrying over large and small details. His level of worry has even impacted the family meals though part of him admits this is unnecessary. Even Tony is unable to cheer him.

It seems the family legacy is too much in spite of his successes. Although Christian has always appeared the weak son, perhaps Tom was not really meant for this life either.

Sue wrote: "I am wondering about the new descriptions of Tom after Tony brings the proposition to him from her friend's husband. He sounds depressed from the picture drawn, having a different physical appearan..."

It's that awful inevitability, you want to shake Tom and say "don't fall for it..." but you know he will despite his better judgment...very much parallel to Tony's marriages, so clear that they are mistakes to us, not quite clear to the characters...irony ...

Elena wrote: "Sue wrote: "I am wondering about the new descriptions of Tom after Tony brings the proposition to him from her friend's husband. He sounds depressed from the picture drawn, having a different physi..."

I felt the same way, but I also wonder if his actions and reactions go beyond that incident. Perhaps I will find out in upcoming chapters, but it seems this aura around him has been building for some time, not just with that proposition. That seemed to bring it to a head.

Sue wrote: "Elena wrote: "Sue wrote: "I am wondering about the new descriptions of Tom after Tony brings the proposition to him from her friend's husband. He sounds depressed from the picture drawn, having a d..."

I am finding Tom a very interesting character.

Whatever happens at the end, I feel sure that Tony and Gerda will go on and cope with their lives. Not so sure about Tom. He seems to be failing physically as well as mentally. And Hanno is such a weakling. Throughout this book, the women characters ( with the exception of Clara) are the strong enduring ones. Even the 3 old maid aunts just keep plugging along, as irritating as they are.

Diane wrote: "Whatever happens at the end, I feel sure that Tony and Gerda will go on and cope with their lives. Not so sure about Tom. He seems to be failing physically as well as mentally. And Hanno is such..."

Very true, Diane. The women are generally strong. Tony is getting stronger in spite of all the things that happen to her.

Lobstergirl mentioned in one of the threads on Auxiliary reading that Mann was close to his daughters and less so to his sons.

Tony and Tom are definitely on the same wavelength. I love the brief scene of Tony playing house when she's married to Gruenlich and Mann depicts her happily watering the potted palms. Many pages and a divorce later she decorates a house for Tom and Gerda, and Tom's response is that it's almost perfect...all it needs is potted palms,...Tony talks incesssantly about the need for everything in a Buddenbrook's life to be "vornehm," (fine not flashy) and Tom carries this out in his home and his meticulously tailored clothes...she wants everything frosted with "Atlas" satin ribbons, another leitmotiv...the extravagance gets them both into trouble as does the distraction from real life. But that fine quality they seek, is something of a beautiful ideal. That ideal of course will inevitably be stomped on by everyone, the Hagenstroem's brash flashiness, Prussian harsh lavishness and Bavarian careless coarseness...I suspect Mann still believed in that vornehm ideal, knowing the consequences...example: on his lecture tours in America during World War II, Mann did not use a suitcase because folding would wrinkle his shirts and tuxedo, he had all his clothes on hangers in huge steamer trunks fitted with a bar. That's vornehm...

Elena wrote: "Tony and Tom are definitely on the same wavelength. I love the brief scene of Tony playing house when she's married to Gruenlich and Mann depicts her happily watering the potted palms. Many pages a..."

Very interesting comment on the meaning and significance of "vornehm"

Elena wrote: "Tony and Tom are definitely on the same wavelength. I love the brief scene of Tony playing house when she's married to Gruenlich and Mann depicts her happily watering the potted palms. Many pages a..."

Reading your review of BB & then the posts here,I wonder why you joined the discussion so late! A very thoughtful post– knowing where his vanity springs from; readers will be perhaps more accepting/forgiving of Tom now.
Do keep posting your excellent comments.

Permaneder is interesting as a contrast in attitudes to the driven Buddenbrooks.

If you can take a lump sum of capital, invest it and live off the accruals comfortably and spend your days playing cards and drinking beer then why not? It is Tom and Tony Buddenbrooks who have the compulsive drive to be worthy of the heritage leaving Tom to chase around to gain a few percent return which he might have been able to get by selling the company and buying railway shares and Prussian government bonds instead!