The Thomas Mann Group discussion

Haha! You shd've been their financial advisor,what a loss!

Mala wrote: "Elena wrote: "Tony and Tom are definitely on the same wavelength. I love the brief scene of Tony playing house when she's married to Gruenlich and Mann depicts her happily watering the potted palms..."

Thanks Mala, I'm still sorting through BB impressions...and at the same time learning how GR works..

I've only just finished reading this week's section, and only had a chance to look at the first few comments posted in this week's thread. I'll try to catch up on all the others tomorrow. I just want to ask if anyone else was disturbed by Tony being described as childlike.

"You have the mind of a child, Tony." hw said despondently, pleading with her. "Every word you've said is childish."( Mann 373


It had me wondering if she is emotionally immature with the naivety of a child that isn't psychologically able to be a married woman. All she was able to do was to play the role of wife even if that included having a child with each husband, and that she was not able to bond with her husband(s).

"And in the next moment she bent forward and began to count the prune pits on her brother's dessert plate. "Tinker-tailor-soldier-sailor---senator!" (Mann 402) I think Mann is showing her as a child that reverts to play.

With regard to Gerda, I think we have yet to see her take on a major role in the novel. I predict that Tom will have an affair with Frau Iwerson and have an illegitimate child with her as well.

I remember a comment about someone thinking it odd that Tony decorated Gerda's home. I would assume that the groom's family would be responsible for decorating his new home, and as Tony had nothing to do, she took over getting the home ready. The bride would move into a fully furnished home.

Do we have any psychiatrists in this group who can make a professional assessment of these personalities? I'm thinking there are some mental disorders that include Thomas and his grandiosity.

The end of this week's reading sounded like a high-water mark to me.

In some ways, I think that Tony has been raised by her family (and perhaps even by bourgeois society) to be naive and childlike, but now that problems have arisen, this is now cast against her (she is criticised for it although she is also and perhaps even first and foremost a product of her upbringing, her family, her society). While Tony might very well have had a natural penchant towards naivete and childishness, this was augmented by her family and her upbringing.

Tony acted like a child because that was the only role given her to play in the family drama. I had the feeling that she could have run the business much more effectively than Tom. She was full of ambition and ideas, but had to present them to Tom so that he could roll them around in his mind and come to the conclusion that he thought of them himself. Manipulation was her only course of action.

Diane wrote: "Tony acted like a child because that was the only role given her to play in the family drama. I had the feeling that she could have run the business much more effectively than Tom. She was full o..."

She was raised to be childlike and dependent and then her family used this against her (when it suited them and when her naivete, the one forced on her by her family and society backfired).

Diane wrote: "Tony acted like a child because that was the only role given her to play in the family drama. I had the feeling that she could have run the business much more effectively than Tom."

I'll have to think about this. Lately, Tom really seems to have faulted, but I did not have the impression throughout that he was unsuited to his position. As for Tony, I definitely thinks she's ambitious and even smart, but I don't remember her whispering strategies into Tom's ear, sort of speak. I'm also a bit surprised everyone finds her so child-like. Sure, a bit, but it never struck me as her predominant attribute.

Jonathan wrote: "Diane wrote: "Tony acted like a child because that was the only role given her to play in the family drama. I had the feeling that she could have run the business much more effectively than Tom."

..."

Childlike with regard to her emotional maturity to endure her marriages.

Mann describes her crying: "Two tears-two large,
clear, childish tears-- rolled down her cheeks, where little wrinkles in her skin could be seen now."(Mann 378)

When the consul read her letters: "... and he knew that Tony Buddenbrook, whether as Madame Grunlich or as Madame Permaneder, was still a child, that she met all these very adult experiences with something like incredulity, and that she experienced them with a child's gravity and a child's sense of importance and- most of all- a child's inner power to overcome them." (Mann 360)

I don't think it's a matter of not being intelligent but rather lacking emotional maturity, and I really think it is more than just being treated as a child by her father. The childlike reactions/behavior are a result of the defenses she's put up to protect herself.