The Thomas Mann Group discussion

Gerda is still rich and she has her music to sustain her. She can have pretty much anything she wants. Tony is going to face financial difficulties and social ostracism as a twice-divorced woman with a criminal for a son-in-law. I am watching the DVD of the 1979 TV production. It is brilliant. I'm afraid I'm becoming a Manniac!

Gundula wrote: "...you realise just how abysmally negative Hanno's life is (there is no chance at all for him, not even as an artist or a musician)."

Gundula, your ability to highlight just how depressing the ending is, is, I hesitate to call it a gift!

People, people. The ending is uplifting. Sesame Weichbrodt stands up like a prophet and insists there is life after death!

As one of the biographers noted, the book begins and ends with religion (Tony reciting the catechism at the beginning). Which is interesting given that Mann was hardly a religious person.

Lobstergirl wrote: "People, people. The ending is uplifting. Sesame Weichbrodt stands up like a prophet and insists there is life after death!"

I regard that in exactly the same light as her marriage blessings.

The treatment of religion as bookends is quite negative. State ordered at the beginning and naive at the end while in the middle of the book we see exactly how far the characters' faith gets them. It is a bleak view of religion, no certain comfort here.

I'm not sure that the future would have been positive for Tony. She traded happiness for the family and the family had disappeared. I doubt that she could recover from that in any meaningful way. Gerda, on the other hand, remained detached from the family. That detachment, notwithstanding Hanno's death, would be her salvation.

Lobstergirl wrote: "People, people. The ending is uplifting. Sesame Weichbrodt stands up like a prophet and insists there is life after death!"

I interpreted that scene in an ironic light: the frail prophetess clinging blindly to religion in the face of tragedy and uncertainty. Especially after Thomas' struggles toward the end of his life -- when part of him wanted to believe (and perhaps did in the dark of the night). But when daylight and daily life intervened, it was as if business and modernity suffocated his lofty thoughts. Throughout the book, I felt that religion was being presented as outdated and impotent -- though it also felt as though some characters wished they could hold on to the stability and certainty of previous generations' beliefs. Many of the characters struck me as spiritually and emotionally adrift, feeling that something was lacking in their modern world, but not knowing what to cling to.

I have to go with the anti-religious folks here. I think Mann wants us to see all the negative influences of religion. While it may have provided some comfort for Jean and Elisabeth, it also blinded them from dealing honestly with their children. Except for Clara, who is portrayed as an extreme version of her mother, all the children, especially Tony, resented their false piety.Jean used religion for his own purposes: remember that sermon he instigated about marriage.

Gary wrote: "I have to go with the anti-religious folks here. I think Mann wants us to see all the negative influences of religion. While it may have provided some comfort for Jean and Elisabeth, it also blinde..."

I've always thought the supposedly uplifting ending as an ironic, cruel parody of the concept of life after death. Weichbrodt is a bit like the Greek Cassandra, she might be a prophetess, but one without power and one who is either not telling the truth or at least is not going to be believed.

Jonathan wrote: "Gundula wrote: "...you realise just how abysmally negative Hanno's life is (there is no chance at all for him, not even as an artist or a musician)."

Gundula, your ability to highlight just how de..."

I know, I love the book, but am I very depressed after reading it (and much more so than I was the first time I read it).

Gundula wrote: "I know, I love the book, but am I every depressed after reading it (and much more so than I was the first time I read it). "

OK, so we've all helped make this an even more depressing read for you! :)

Jan-Maat wrote: "Gundula wrote: "I know, I love the book, but am I every depressed after reading it (and much more so than I was the first time I read it). "

OK, so we've all helped make this an even more depressi..."
The question remains: So why do we and so many readers over the years love this book??? Maybe Mann is sweeping away the cobwebs of the past for us...

I was thinking about Cassandra also, Gundula. I also wondered about Christian. What do we make of his name? He's the most dissolute of the four yet he has his admirers (both Hanno and Gerda). His sense of family seems more consistent than the others and he ends up marrying his paramour, who puts him in an asylum. Yikes! No good deed goes unpunished. I think we can relate to it because we can see elements of ourselves-and our families in it. Didn't someone say a while back that Faulkner kept a copy of it at his bedside? He certainly had a way with family dysfunction..

Lobstergirl wrote: "People, people. The ending is uplifting. Sesame Weichbrodt stands up like a prophet and insists there is life after death!

As one of the biographers noted, the book begins and ends with religion..."

Once again, I wish there were a "like" button here! You've hit the irony button on the head Lobstergirl. Sesame may insist, but there is certainly little evidence in this story, aside from the hard lives lived on this earth. I believe that in some creeds, the ratio of earthly difficulty was related to heavenly delights.

Jan-Maat wrote: "Gundula wrote: "I know, I love the book, but am I every depressed after reading it (and much more so than I was the first time I read it). "

OK, so we've all helped make this an even more depressi..."

But that is not such a bad thing either, the story is depressing!!

And think of Sesame Weichbrodt's last name!! In German, it basically means soft bread, and I kind of think of it as bread that has been soaked and saturated with the tears of life (and has become soft and mouldy, full of fungus).

Gundula wrote: "And think of Sesame Weichbrodt's last name!! In German, it basically means soft bread, and I kind of think of it as bread that has been soaked and saturated with the tears of life (and has become ..."

Another valuable piece of information. Moldy like her blessings. And remember when she set herself on fire. It gave Hanno such pleasure-which was a rarity for him.

I haven't finished reading the entire book yet but I love it!! yes, it is depressing but so are many other books that I have enjoyed. I found these conversation threads really helpful in understanding the background of the story.

thanks for your input, everyone

Gary wrote: "Gundula wrote: "And think of Sesame Weichbrodt's last name!! In German, it basically means soft bread, and I kind of think of it as bread that has been soaked and saturated with the tears of life ..."

That's one thing with at least some of the last names names in Buddenbrooks. They often are like an extension (or a personality portrait of the individual). With Bendix Grünlich (greenish) for example, the last name shows or at least somehow shows what a greenish, slimy little parasite he was. And Ida Jungmann (young man), with her last name, I always feel the same sense of wicked irony as I feel with Sesame Weichbrodt's last name (for I don't think that Ida ever was truly young).

So Mann had something in common with Dickens here. It was so helpful having German speakers share insights with the rest of us. This entire experience has been wonderful. I hope everyone's coming along for Magic Mountain.

I do think we have to be careful about not assuming too much about Mann's point of view or opinions about things from what he makes certain characters say, think, feel, or from anything in the narrative. It's very tempting to do that but we have to remember it's fiction. Even though so much of what Mann saw and heard around him made its way into his fiction, it's still fiction. If we want to know what Mann thought, what his actual opinions were, we'd have to read his diaries and his nonfiction writings. And even his opinions in his nonfiction writings are all over the map - he thinks one thing one day, the opposite five years later.

And now I'm just going to quote some things from Heilbut (Thomas Mann: Eros and Literature) that caught my eye.

"Yet for a novel that revolves around such a highly intellectual issue [he's just asserted it's a novel about language], Buddenbrooks is doggedly materialistic: indeed the combination of abstract thoughts and sensuous detail is what makes Mann so appealing - or, to readers like Nabokov, so middlebrow. All the big subjects are treated: religion, philosophy, national politics. But they are grounded in the routine, assimilated to anecdote and gossip. The most imposing activities of adult men are sabotaged by infantile neuroses. Every attempt at overreaching is checked by an intractable nature and a rebellious body. In few previous novels had decaying teeth and nervous stomachs so viscerally represented a state of spiritual collapse." (p. 95)

Interesting that Nabokov was so dismissive of Mann. I'd like to know more about that. Another writer who was was Robert Musil.

"Gerda can be regarded as an intellectual Madame Bovary or as an oblique tribute to Julia Mann: mother, madonna, and muse. No doubt she would have been better off single."

"Hanno Buddenbrook is something new in literature. He is the first "Little Boy Blue," the aesthete, bad at games, socially maladroit, suffused with a voracious and forbidden sexuality. By comparison, the sorrows of Dickens's orphans are easily alleviated. Like all the sad young men who will succeed him, Hanno sees that his misery is intrinsic." (p. 102)

Lobstergirl wrote: "By comparison, the sorrows of Dickens's orphans are easily alleviated."

For me, this quote stuck out. Although those sorrows should be easily alleviated and are on a personal level in many cases, the problem persists and may be getting worse again as the world economy morphs.

Jonathan wrote: "Lobstergirl wrote: "By comparison, the sorrows of Dickens's orphans are easily alleviated."

For me, this quote stuck out. Although those sorrows should be easily alleviated and are on a personal l..."

So true Jonathan and actually "Dicken's orphans'" sorrows may be easily alleviated, but they simply aren't effectively. Things are better than in Victorian times (no poor houses per se), instead the poor go to jail for crimes that the rich don't suffer any indignity for. Society seems to prefer to channel the funds toward war, business, etc.

For me, Hanno's misery was very personal, the misery of a misfit, who knew the things he loved, knew that he couldn't have or be successful at them, knew he wasn't much appreciated except as the bearer of the family name. Horrible position to be in.

Hanno is presented in the TV series as being more autistic then artistic. I'm still conflicted about him but I think Mann's position is pretty clear. Religion, medicine and business are all externals which do little to alter our inner struggles. Would Hanno had been better off if Christian was his father? Why was Elisabeth's death so painful and prolonged? What if Tony had acted against her parents' wishes? Tom knew he smoked too much, but did nothing to change his behavior. I guess the fickle finger of fate is stronger than anyone's free will.

When you mention Elizabeth's prolonged death, Gary, I was thinking of the changes in our views now toward death and dying, even among most religions. In the novel, there was mention of the need NOT to interfere with the necessary suffering. Then I thought of the very wonderful pain intervention my mother and so many others have had in recent times to gently ease their breathing at the end. How horrible to watch someone suffocate as the lungs fill when they knew they could stop it or ease it with laudanum or whatever was in their bag.

Elena wrote: "The question remains: So why do we and so many readers over the years love this book?"

Speaking for myself I don't love it. I had the odd experience of enjoying each chapter but not enjoying the whole thing. I was quite sick of the book about 2/3rds of the way through and found I had to push myself to read. Had I been Mann's editor I would have advised him to write a novella instead!

I admire and appreciate the skill but I recall now why I last read Mann in my 20s.

Sue wrote: When you mention Elizabeth's prolonged death, Gary, I was thinking of the changes in our views now toward death and dying, even among most religions

It is quite remarkable compared with the clean deaths we find in Dickens. These are full of medical detail with intense personal suffering. No transcendant departure to the happy hunting grounds.

Gundula wrote:That's one thing with at least some of the last names names in Buddenbrooks. They often are like an extension (or a personality portrait of the individual).

You mean as Bude /kiosk Budel/shop counter? I thought the same of schoolteachers' names.

That's funny, Mann's editor did basically want a novella. Well, he wanted something 200 pages or less. Mann refused.

I wouldn't say I loved it either. There were parts of it, passages, I thought were brilliant and very moving, but the episodic nature of it didn't hugely appeal to me. It grew on me the further into it I got; I'd say the first 100 pages or so barely held my interest. And I should say, I'm describing my reading experience from 1.5 years ago when I first read it. This second time through I didn't read it as intently, and skimmed parts. I don't like to reread so soon. I pretty much like to go 10 years before a reread, which sounds crazy, but it's just the way I am. I like to have forgotten 99% of a book before I reread.

It's interesting because some of his shorter fiction (Death in Venice, Tonio Kroger, maybe a few more) and The Magic Mountain are all more appealing to me as literature. There are some critics who think he is better as a miniaturist than a novelist. To each her own.

Now, having said all the above, I still think he's kind of a genius writer. He's a brilliant writer. The fact that I didn't absolutely adore Buddenbrooks doesn't disqualify him from geniosity, for me.

Lobstergirl wrote: "That's funny, Mann's editor did basically want a novella. Well, he wanted something 200 pages or less. Mann refused.

I wouldn't say I loved it either. There were parts of it, passages, I though..."

Aside from this novel, I have always liked Thomas Mann's short fiction much more than his novels (no matter how intriguing Mann's novels are, they also can and do become repetitive, frustrating and sometimes tedious with their length and narrative style).

Regarding Elizabeth's prolonged death, I found it interesting that she fought dying so hard, given her religious belief that she would go to heaven and be with God. Could this have been Mann's attempt to skewer religious beliefs?

Diane wrote: "Regarding Elizabeth's prolonged death, I found it interesting that she fought dying so hard, given her religious belief that she would go to heaven and be with God. Could this have been Mann's att..."

I think that Mann is just showing what is often reality, namely, that once death is approaching, is at hand, many individuals, including those who might have before talked about the inevitability of death, of accepting death, even of there being life after death from a religious standpoint, fight for their life, fight against the approaching end.

Elisabeth is the only major character who seemed to enjoy a long and rewarding life. While she resisted death in the beginning-who doesn't?-by the end she was begging for relief. I was appalled at the attitude of the doctors. Both science and religion failed her in the end. I thought the last chapters were brilliant but found the middle of the book to be a bit of a slog. It is an amazing achievement for someone in his early 20's.

Even though I am still a newbie, I enjoyed this discussion group immensely. Lots of thoughtful posts, well informed, a good mix of expert comments and spontaneous reactions, and all very gently guided/moderated. I hope the same group will stay together for the next one, did I get it right, will it by Magic Mountain?

Gundula wrote: "Diane wrote: "Regarding Elizabeth's prolonged death, I found it interesting that she fought dying so hard, given her religious belief that she would go to heaven and be with God. Could this have b..."

I don't believe she was resisting death , especially over the final several days. From what was described, she seemed to be unfortunate enough to be slowly dying as her lungs filled barely allowing her to breathe. The doctors were performing as their medicine and religion taught them to do at the time. It was horribly inhumane. But when you consider how recent it is that things like morphine have been freely prescribed for hospice patients, it has taken us a long time to move beyond that position.

Sue wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Diane wrote: "Regarding Elizabeth's prolonged death, I found it interesting that she fought dying so hard, given her religious belief that she would go to heaven and be with God. C..."
I was rather taken aback that the servants stole her clothes and linens, everyone thought the could take from the BB, even at the end of life. Another realistic and telling detail, the shock of something obvious once it is put into words. This is why we need writers...

Elena wrote: "Sue wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Diane wrote: "Regarding Elizabeth's prolonged death, I found it interesting that she fought dying so hard, given her religious belief that she would go to heaven and be ..."

Elena, I found that shocking too. Is that something more well off people of the time had to worry about? Was it a way of making up for poor wages?

Sue wrote: "Elena wrote: "Sue wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Diane wrote: "Regarding Elizabeth's prolonged death, I found it interesting that she fought dying so hard, given her religious belief that she would go to ..."

I wonder if this was the same in Great Britain as well (at least with the newer bourgeois, merchant or industrial class). I know that in many of the aristocratic houses of Britain (as well as the landed gentry), servants were often considered to almost be a part of the family. I don't necessarily think that was generally the case in German households (especially the nouveau riche and/or the bourgeoisie), although with the Buddenbrooks, it seems that Ida Jungmann had that special "I belong to the family" type of relationship, but it does not seem to be the case for and with many if not most of the other servants (they were considered as simple employees and ones not be be trusted either, and were often denigrated and made to feel their supposed lack of breeding, upbringing, culture and so on).

Downton Abbey, to the contrary, my impression of servants in both England and America in the 19th Century was that they were to be invisible; special hidden staircases and closets were built so servants could literally disappear if a family member made a sudden appearance. I was struck by Elisabeth's kindness, always showering her maids with polite endearments. As a governess, it seems that Ida held the position of "almost family." Compare that to the slurs poor Jane Eyre endured? Ida gets sacked in the end, which surprised me, but I guess that was Gerda's decision. I want to express my appreciation for these discussions. While we didn't always agree, everyone shared valuable insights-not incites.

This business of servants taking the employers clothes rings a bell, but a distant one I'm afraid.

Factual or not its a reenforces the idea of the household springing apart as the old lady dies. I suppose it is also mirrored by the children splitting up her other possessions after her death. We see how her material remains are divided up but don't get any sense of a spiritual inheritance - or even of the children remembering her. It is interesting what isn't said, she ceases to exist in a very absolute way.

Tom thinks back on his grandfather with regard to Hanno, but otherwise the presence of the dead is iirc only in the Chronicle.

Jan-Maat wrote: "This business of servants taking the employers clothes rings a bell, but a distant one I'm afraid.

Factual or not its a reenforces the idea of the household springing apart as the old lady dies. ..."

I hadn't really thought of that, Jan-Maat, but it's so true. In spite of their major presence in their children's lives, the parents are barely, if ever mentioned after their deaths. Everything seems to have ended with the drama of the funerals and dividing of the estates.

I was also struck that the dividing of the belongings after Elizabeth's death did not seem to have much emotion attached, even for Tony. It seemed to be primarily a mercenary affair.

I hesitate to speculate about Tony's future, but here goes my Hollywood happy ending: Tony and Erika flee the Hagenstroms of Luebeck and settle into genteel poverty in Berlin. Erika finances their lifestyle by selling off silver and porcelain. She successfully sells a particularly nice cachepot to a florist whose family has cornered the market in imported tropical plants. He appreciates her sense of style and engages her and her elegant mother for an ambitious project to decorate a winter garden in a new grand hotel. While checking out the results, Erika sees an intense man, writing at a table under a potted palm. He is finishing his notes for a talk at the Hotel ballroom on his latest bestseller. Erika is pleased that his name has a Baltic ring to it, reminds her somehow of her childhood.

Elena wrote: "I hesitate to speculate about Tony's future, but here goes my Hollywood happy ending: Tony and Erika flee the Hagenstroms of Luebeck and settle into genteel poverty in Berlin. Erika finances their ..."

I love it Elena!!

I like it too. It takes some of the sting away.