A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
This topic is about
A Song of Ice and Fire
Catelyn
I think she is a good mother to her own children. She bore five children to Ned and three heirs to the throne. She does her duty as wife and mother. I don't think she is meant to be "the mother" for the whole series. Dany is called Mother of Dragons. The dragons are her children too. I want to state I am not trying to take away Cat's thunder. Just pointing out Dany is considered a mother too and you didn't specific the children had to be human. :)
Right, Dany's not only mother to dragons but her people call her mother. And there are also many other mothers: Gilly, Lysa, Cersei. I guess what I was thinking of is how you see her at bedsides unlike anyone else. The scene at Riverrun when everyone else is celebrating and she's sitting with her dying father and mourning her sons--it reminds me of myself sitting with a sick kid during a party or spending the night in the ER with an older parent.
Catelyn, one of the most despised female characters by fans of ASOIAF series. Most of the people blame her for the downfall of the Starks. Many people call her horrible for her treatment of Jon Snow while most of these people sympathizes with characters who have done horrible things such as cutting a child into two or throwing a child out of a window. Admittedly, I didn't like her either when I first read the series, But I've manage to put myself in her shoes and I've come to really like her and sympathize with her. She is definitely one of the most tragic characters of the series.
I really don't hate Cat or despise her. She is one of my favorite characters. I know she hates Jon Snow with a vengeance because she really thinks that Ned cheated on her. Then he brings Jon to Winterfell and she has to see that infidelity everyday in the form of a child. I get it. I also love Jon. I don't understand why Cat keeps the grudge for so long.
I also don't hate Cat, she's put in terrible situations and makes human decisions. I can't blame her for hating Jon Snow, I can't blame her for attempting to trade the Kingslayer for her daughters. Can any of us say that our actions would have been any better? I couldn't. Besides, Lady Stoneheart, FTW!
The act with Tryrion I can understand, she acted on impulse in a difficult situation. What I don't understand is why she stayed with Robb when he had tonnes of Knights and such yet left the baby boys alone with an old Nanny and a Healer for protection? The deal with Jamie I kind of understand, however again she chooses to release an enemy to save daughters and weaken a son, sits by a dying Father who doesn't know her whilst her other sons are in danger. That's what frustrated me - if Robb was King then Bran and Rickon would have had some better guards right? Anyway this is about Cat and as a parent her actions were mixed, I'm a Mother and I would have done it differently (if I lived in a land of Wolves, Castles, Wrags and Dragons obviously) :)
I most certainly can blame her for hating Jon Snow. Jon didn't cheat on her - Ned did (in her mind). If she wants to hate someone it should be Ned. Otherwise, grow the hell up.
I think most of the things that happen are ALL in Cats mind... I think there is some crazy cray going on in there. She sees enemies EVERY where.
So she is going mad like Lysa, just a little more subtly?
The comment was made that she perceives the events differently and a bit irrationally.
I personally dislike Cat. I hate most of what she does and the actions she takes, causing more harm than heal. Despite that I don't blame her. As a mother she loved her children fiercly, and was lead to belive (i'm assuming it's safe to say, now that season 3 of the show has come out) that she's lost almost all of her children.
I didn't like Cat on first read but on re-read I see her differently. Not sure how exactly, trying to figure that out.But yeah she sees enemies everywhere! Have you noticed what's happening to the Starks? The Lannisters (not Tyrion but others) ARE trying to kill Bran, Jon Arryn WAS murdered, Robert Baratheon wasn't the friend that Ned remembered, Balon Greyjoy (and Theon) weren't allies, something weird went down in Renly's tent, and .....
She's got her issues but unwarranted paranoia isn't one of them.
I do think Cat suffers a bit from PTSD. She experiences a lot after Ned leaves for Kings Landing and it's all very traumatic. Especially after she is attacked in her own home. It's hard at first to step back and see the psychological trauma that Cat has had to endur constantly since Ned's departure and death and sure, I think her decisions were skewed by this. I don't think she made all the right decisions but I can see her line of thought.I don't think she should have hated Jon so much, but I also can see why as well. Ned should have taken more responsibility for Jon than he did really. In reality, who do you think was changing Jon's diapers and sewing his clothes. Who do you think was nursing him upon his return to Winterfell. I don't recall there being a wetnurse there...
I'd be pretty annoyed by that myself.
Do I think she represents the Mother of the Seven. Hell no. She's a nice enough mother I suppose to her own children, but she isn't particularly concerned with many people outside her own family really.
She even turns into a beast of vengeance for them pretty much.
I agree that if anyone is the Mother of the Series it's Dany.
I actually think Cat is fairly comparable Cersei just not quite so vain and deluded.
Amber wrote: "Who do you think was nursing him upon his return to Winterfell. I don't recall there being a wetnurse there..."There had to have been. There is no way Cat would care for Jon, nor would I think Ned expected her to. It wouldn't be difficult for a highborn family who was well loved by their smallfolk to find a wetnurse.
Cat upholds her family's words to the extreme: Family, Duty, Honor. However, like everyone else, she has her own interpretations on those words. Cat is definitely A mother of the series, but I wouldn't say she is the mother of the series. (Nor Dany for that matter.)
I never much cared for Cat, but I must say, of all of those who lived in Winterfel at the beginning of our tale, at least she knew something about how to play the Game. She gave wise words to Robb; it's just a shame he (like his father) had too much wolf fur in his ears to hear them. I agree that Cat is very comparable to Cersei, though Cat very much has her own vanity and delusions.
I am much more interested in Lady Stoneheart than I was in Catelyn. I am very curious to see what role she will have to play.
Amber wrote: "I do think Cat suffers a bit from PTSD. She experiences a lot after Ned leaves for Kings Landing and it's all very traumatic. Especially after she is attacked in her own home. It's hard at first..."Willa was Jon's wet nurse at one point, don't forget.
But yes Cat is definitely one of those " Drama KWEEN " people. Without Ned around to keep her centered and in the real world she had an over blown view of her importance in the ('game'); after all she is NOT her father, NOR her husband, she is only the daughter of a Lord and the wife of a Lord. And In Westeros that is not a Lord. She takes everything as a personal insult to her and her family, and sees insults and enemies behind every door, bush, and tree, while expecting all who swore alliegences to her family to follow her to hell and back for those imagined insults.
In that respect she was trying to act just like Cerci, without Cerci's power and/ or family's power and money. ( Not very smart)
I'm not putting this as well as I want to, but you get the idea.
Nermin wrote: "Which events exactly?"Everything that has happened to her in the books. It is like she doesn't think it is happening to her. Ever since Ned died, she has been more distant than normal.
Right, Wylla was Jon's wetnurse at Starfall before he came to Winterfell.No one ever said there was a Wetnurse in Winterfell to my knowledge, outside of Old Nan, who obviously wasn't nursing by the time Robb and Jon showed up. I'd say, based on occams razor, the safest leap would be to assume Cat nursed Jon as well as Robb.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
No mention of one in the Stark's Employ and Rickon isn't even that old.
I'm not Cat's biggest fan, but I don't see why there is no way she wouldn't nurse Jon when she was clearly able.
Family. Duty. Honor.
She might not like it, but I think she'd do it.
They could have had a maid do it who was already nursing.
Sure they could have had someone else do it, that's not entirely impossible.I'm just saying the conclusion that Cat nursed Jon requires the fewest assumptions, so it's the safest bet.
Though that does leave an open question as to who would have nursed Jon on his journey from Starfall to Riverrun. It's entirely possible he was given animals milk as well.
Anyway, without fuddling things up even more with maybe's Cat just makes the fewest assumptions.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Nermin wrote: "Which events exactly?""I don't think Cat would know "normal" if it jumped up in her lap and french kissed her and called her Mama!
hehehe, but I would love to see that.
Idnt gonna happen.Just one of my faborite sayings
Nermin wrote: "Dunno why you guys would be saying that. I didn't see any sign of Catelyn going mad [spoilers removed]"It started in Winterfell with her laughing hysterically after Summer ripped the throat out off Bran's would be assassin.
Amber wrote: "I do think Cat suffers a bit from PTSD. She experiences a lot after Ned leaves for Kings Landing and it's all very traumatic. Especially after she is attacked in her own home. It's hard at first..."In one of her chapters in AGoT, she says that Jon was already in Winterfell, with his wet nurse, when she arrived from Riverrun with Robb. The servants of Winterfell clothed, bathed, fed Jon, as they did the rest of the children. Catelyn nursed her children, but that's it. She would, sometimes, relieve a maid in order to brush Sansa's hair. No highborn does any real work.
Dionna wrote: "Nermin wrote: "Dunno why you guys would be saying that. I didn't see any sign of Catelyn going mad [spoilers removed]"It started in Winterfell with her laughing hysterically after Summer ripped t..."
Is this sign of madness? I don't see anything extraordninary about it.
In one of her chapters in AGoT, she says that Jon was already in Winterfell, with his wet nurse, when she arrived from Riverrun with Robb. The servants of Winterfell clothed, bathed, fed Jon, as they did the rest of the children. Catelyn nursed her children, but that's it. She would, sometimes, relieve a maid in order to brush Sansa's hair. No highborn does any real work. Wow, I so do not remember this!
Now I really want to read it, since I am kinda interested in how Jon was introduced.
If Cat never saw him til Winterfell, then why does everyone think he is from Dorne/Tower of Joy? Seems like he could be from just about anywhere...
His first wet nurse was Wylla from Dorne. Ashara Dayne was Dornish and it was known that Ned liked/loved Ashara, and delivered Dawn to Ashara after Arthur's death. Cat was in Riverrun until after Robb was born, along with Lysa. There was a war going on so it was not possible for her to go to Winterfell until wars end.
oh right, derp. Obviously my brain is failing today.So I always imagined for some reason that Ned went to Riverrun from TOJ then to Winterfell afterward.
What you are telling me is that actually Ned went to Winterfell from TOJ then either sent for Cat or went back to Riverrun and retrieved her and Robb?
Or is this part just written in a vague way so we have to make a bunch of assumptions? (as usual! LOL)
Sorry, I just always imagined this transition much differently - knowing what other fans have picked up makes for much better speculation.
From the Wiki:Eddard was fostered by Lord Jon Arryn at the Eyrie from the age of eight, alongside Robert Baratheon.[7] Ned befriended Robert and came to consider Lord Arryn a second father. Ned's father and brother were executed at the command of King Aerys II, who further demanded that Arryn send him the heads of his wards. Arryn refused and instead launched a rebellion. With his father and brother dead, Ned, now Lord of Winterfell, rallied the North in rebellion.
At the beginning of the rebellion, Eddard had a fisherman try to sneak him from the Vale to White Harbour, so he could raise his forces in the North, but due to storms the fisherman died and his daughter was only able to get him to Sweetsister. Lord Borrell later snuck him into White Harbour. Before marching to aid Robert, who was warring in the south, Ned married Catelyn Tully, who had been betrothed to Ned's brother Brandon before his death.[8] At the tail end of the rebellion, Ned, along with six of his companions, traveled to the Dornish border to find the Tower of Joy, where Prince Rhaegar Targaryen had hidden his sister Lyanna. It was guarded by three members of the Kingsguard, including Ser Arthur Dayne. The resulting skirmish saw the deaths of all but Ned and Howland Reed. Unfortunately, Lyanna had died shortly after the battle, a moment that haunted Ned ever since.
Once the conflict had ended and Robert had taken the throne, Ned returned home, bringing with him a bastard son, Jon, about whose origins he refused to speak, even to his own wife; he quickly silenced rumors that the boy's mother was the Dornish noblewoman Ashara Dayne.
Dionna wrote: "From the Wiki:Eddard was fostered by Lord Jon Arryn at the Eyrie from the age of eight, alongside Robert Baratheon.[7] Ned befriended Robert and came to consider Lord Arryn a second father. Ned's ..."
My personal belief is that Jon is Lyanna's child from rape by a Targaryn, making him Dany's cousin or half brother. He's both Stark and Targaryn, giving him legal claim to the entire kingdom. Ned could not risk telling anyone, especially Robert since he would be both threatened by Jon's higher claim to the throne as well as enraged by the fact that Jon was a Targaryen bastard by the women he loved so dearly. He would have killed the child. And so Ned took this secret to his grave. He had to even keep it from Cat in order to sell the story. I think Dany and Jon are going to join forces in the end to defeat the powers of winter... he's one of her Dragon riders. Jon has the same Warg powers as Eddard's kids because he is, in fact, still a Stark. That's my two cents. (And no, GRRM did not tell me a thing. They are clamped down tight on this stuff.)
ok I've changed my mind Edward I'm with you! well till the next great theory ;)
Only Bran and I think Rickon have warg powers that is mentioned.
Arya does, but it's faint. She dreams Nymeria dreams--I can't remember exactly when and where but it's probably significant. It's hard to know with Robb because the reader/viewer never gets inside his head.
So to bring this back to Catelyn....I think it's highly unlikely that she nursed Jon personally or that she would have been expected to. The little interlude in the TV series with her regretting not loving him after the bargain with the gods--don't know really what that was meant to paint into the plot or her character portrait. And actually don't care so very much. Not being able to have empathy for Jon points to a flaw or blindspot in her character whatever the form it took or the reasons. And it's also extremely unlikely that any warg abilities come through the Tullys!
No, when I was watching the funeral scene, all the Tully women looked like they had pinched faces and just looked like they had sour expressions.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Only Bran and I think Rickon have warg powers that is mentioned."Jon Snow has the same dreams. He just hasn't developed the ability as thoroughly as Bran.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Only Bran and I think Rickon have warg powers that is mentioned."All of the Stark children are wargs, per GRRM. Jon has had moments on Ghosts, only he doesn't recognize it.
Scribal wrote: "Arya does, but it's faint. She dreams Nymeria dreams--I can't remember exactly when and where but it's probably significant. It's hard to know with Robb because the reader/viewer never gets inside ..."Arya's warging abilities are very strong. While she was blind and on assignment she warged a cat in order to see what was going on in the tavern and saw the KM had followed her. We he asked her how she know, she said that she didn't have to tell because she had already told him three things, and in her mind thought, she might tell him, but why should she? They have their secrets and I have mine.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "No, when I was watching the funeral scene, all the Tully women looked like they had pinched faces and just looked like they had sour expressions."Thre are only 2 Tully women, Catelyn and Lysa. The Blackfish doesn't have children and it doesn't say if Hoster had other siblings. I would say no, as Cat never referred to any.
Edward wrote: "Dionna wrote: "From the Wiki:Eddard was fostered by Lord Jon Arryn at the Eyrie from the age of eight, alongside Robert Baratheon.[7] Ned befriended Robert and came to consider Lord Arryn a second..."
How do you know that he has a Targaryen look? We have no proof of that. I think that he may, only because GRRM made Maester Aemon blind, the only Targaryen he had contact with.
Dionna wrote: "Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "No, when I was watching the funeral scene, all the Tully women looked like they had pinched faces and just looked like they had sour expressions."Thre are only 2 T..."
There was at least another woman in the funeral party than Cat and Lysa.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Dionna wrote: "Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "No, when I was watching the funeral scene, all the Tully women looked like they had pinched faces and just looked like they had sour expressions."Th..."
That doesn't mean that she was a Tully and Lysa wasn't there.
Could of sworn Lysa was.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Could of sworn Lysa was."No. Lysa is holed up in the Eerie.
Once the conflict had ended and Robert had taken the throne, Ned returned home, bringing with him a bastard son, Jon, about whose origins he refused to speak, even to his own wife; he quickly silenced rumors that the boy's mother was the Dornish noblewoman Ashara Dayne.So it's pretty vague how it went down. Possibly Cat was already at Winterfell awaiting his return even since the war was ended when Robert took the throne, not when Ned left TOJ.
*sigh*
Eh, even if Cat didn't nurse him, she hardly begrudged him anything but a name and I can't blame her for that. Her children are true born, no matter the case, Jon is not. Even if he is L+R he'd still be a bastard, his last name would just be Sand instead of Snow. *shrug*
Even when he doesn't eat with the king, thats not Cat's doing, thats Ned's. She never treats him as her son, not that big a deal to me, since he's not her son and never will be.
At least she is honest. Unlike her husband, at least in this instance.
It certainly isn't Jon's fault, but it kept him far more humble to constantly face his bastardy and Jon is the sort who needs humbling, he only realizes that after he gets to the wall and Tyrion straight up tells him so.
To kick it off: is she meant to enact the role of "the mother" for the series? Read that as you will--as the god of the Seven called "the mother" --as the person who sits with the newborn and the dying--as any other kind of mother stereotype you want.
Have at it.