The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion

Linda wrote: "I can't stand to watch or read about abuse and torture of animals. That just makes me furious. I don't like the torture of people either."

Animal torture makes me sick too Linda.

I don't really. I've read books that made me sick to my stomach because they were "over the top" violent, but I pushed through it and finished the book.

I find that the violence in the books I read is needed for the story. Yes, it may be nasty and I really don't like it, but there wouldn't be a story without it.

What fascinates me the most is the fact that these writers come up with some of the things they do. Some of the stuff is SO graphic and horrible that it's hard to admit it came from someone's imagination. True, some it I'm sure the writers get from real life happenings, but not all of it. There are some truly twisted minds out there!

Carmen wrote: What fascinates me the most is the fact that these writers come up with some of the things they do. Some of the stuff is SO graphic and horrible that it's hard to admit it came from someone's imagination. True, some it I'm sure the writers get from real life happenings, but not all of it. There are some truly twisted minds out there! "

Police reports are a pretty good place to start, Carmen. When I wrote my first novel, I based it loosely around the story of a serial killer who was up to no good during the Blitz in 1939-40. The original police files were available to researchers in London's National Records Office and I spent many a long hour in there with a camera, recording all the most interesting ones. I've still got the pictures somewhere. The toughest ones to look at were the authentic crime scene pictures. They would have been difficult at the best of times but the fact that they were so old - faded and yellowed - made it seem worse, somehow. It was still a really interesting way to get the raw material for the book.

I believe the question should be “Who draws the line on violence?
The author or the readers. Many times real life violence is more horrific than the imagined. No limitations should be placed on the author specially if it fits the plot, and adds to the horror that the author whishes to instill the reader.
Perhaps there should be a warning label to protect the innocent or more sensitive among us from being surprised at the violence in a book , but ultimately is up to the reader to decide.

If the author is limited then books like Jaws or those of horrific violence of man against man such as “The silence of the Lambs” would never have been written.

If man can imagine it you can bet some crazy will eventually make it reality.

You are right, Eduardo: No limitations should be placed on the author specially if it fits the plot, and adds to the horror that the author whishes to instill the reader.

But I, as a reader, have the right to limit how much violence (and how graphic it gets) in the books I read. I have not problem with violence, but a writer who constantly floods his or her work with gratuitous, gory violence will not stay on my reading list long.

Dave wrote: "You are right, Eduardo: No limitations should be placed on the author specially if it fits the plot, and adds to the horror that the author whishes to instill the reader.

But I, as a reader, have ..."

You're right. Thomas Harris so offended me with Red Dragon that I swore I was never going to read another of his books. Okay, I reneged and did read The Silence of the Lambs. Although I received Hannibal, I never read it. I did keep the vow with Gary Jennings after I read Aztec

I don't see many movies anymore. I do not enjoy violence and whacky graphics. In a book it depends on the description. If it takes four pages describing someone you know is going to die, I end the agony by skipping pages.

I've tried skipping pages if its too boring, gratuitous sex (which I absolutely HATE in crime novels!), etc., but I never can do it. I ALWAYS end up going back and reading the part I really didn't want to read. I guess I feel like, what if I miss something really important in all this crap!? I have no willpower. *sigh* :(

Carmen wrote: "I've tried skipping pages if its too boring, gratuitous sex (which I absolutely HATE in crime novels!), etc., but I never can do it. I ALWAYS end up going back and reading the part I really didn't..."

I've done that enough times to know I can skip. Every time I went back I regretted it.

@Sandi:
I usually regret it too, I still do it anyway! It's like this siren call that keeps saying in my head, "Read me....You know you want to.... You know you can't fight me.... Read me.....

I know, it's sad! I'm a slave to words on a page! No willpower...no hope of avoiding horrible writing!! AAAAAHHHHH!!

I have the same problem. For some reason with an audio book I am able to hit the fast forward button over graphic sex and violence. But with the written page I feel the need to at least skim it. Easier to just not pick up a book I know is going to gross me out. Why some Authors I only listen to and a few I have stopped reading in any format.

Diana wrote: "I have the same problem. For some reason with an audio book I am able to hit the fast forward button over graphic sex and violence. But with the written page I feel the need to at least skim it. Ea..."

It's like a car crash - you don't want to look, but you can't draw your eyes away!

Mark wrote: "It's a really difficult one. As a reader, I won't ever forget the violence in American Psycho which became, by the end, a real struggle to read. Of course, that's the point that Ellis was trying to..."

Mark, I was just about to post about American Psycho and had almost all the same points on the tips of my fingers.... you beat me to it by a month! kudos!

Generally speaking I don't like3 child or animal abuse. I almost stopped reading The Shining when Jack broke his son's arm.

As a reader, I like to be shocked. As a thriller writer, I like to shock and maybe -- as Stephen Kings says -- sometimes you just have to go for the gross out. But, sometimes I'll write something and skeeve myself out, and that's my red line..

I am another reader who hates gratuitous violence..child or animal abuse..abuse of women..too graphic descriptions of grisley scenes...besides being upsetting, I think they are always less effective than allowing readers to fill in the details themselves...my favorite mysteries are the ones that challenge my imagination.

This is an interesting question, and one I've been wrestling with for some time. I write mysteries but also fantasy, and there is a trend in fantasy novels (kicked off, some believe, by George R.R. Martin) to have ever increasing, often sexualized violence. This "grimdark" style has become so popular, from what I've read, that many fantasy authors think they too must emulate it, or remain obscure.

I have a real ethical problem with violence that functions for titillation or merely to provide atmosphere. Some have argued that grimdark violence acts in the capacity of the setting rather than as an integral part of the plot. That's the difference some folks have made between it and other instances of violence in fantasy fiction.

Here's an article in case you wanted to read more about that: http://www.nerds-feather.com/2013/02/...

Anyway, because I take issue with gratuitous violence in fiction, I run into a dilemma when I write my own stories. I studied violence as a graduate student in history. For a while I was going to specialize in the history of genocides. The way that violence is sometimes portrayed as entertainment *really* bothers me. But OTOH, I am drawn to it and fascinated by it. I am incapable, at least at this point in my life, of writing a story *without* violence. It's a pickle.

This has been an issue with my mystery series. I can't come up with a way to write mysteries, especially with my protagonist, who is a psychic who gets visions from the dead, without writing about violence and murder. So the conclusion I came to a while back is that including violence in a story isn't the problem. All stories must have conflict, and all conflict is, in some way, violent. It's how the author writes about it that matters.

I firmly believe that there are ethical ways and unethical ways to write about violence in fiction. In a discussion in another group, I was really horrified to read about one author's glee over "getting to slaughter" bad guy minions. Look, maybe I have no sense of humor. Maybe I take stuff too seriously. Fine, I can live with that. To me, no violence is truly fictional. Any instance of violence you come across in a story has actually happened, somewhere, to some real person. As such, one must approach the storytelling of violence with respect. It's the respect the survivors and victims of real instances of such violence deserve.

In the book I'm currently working on, all this has been churning in my head, of course, so whatdayaknow--my main character has broken the reins of my control and determined herself to be extremely violent. Initially I saw this story as being somewhat a stage for exploring how to depict brutality in such a way that it wouldn't be titillating. I wanted to attempt to show a harsh sexual assault/murder without there being any way for the reader to find it arousing, even if that's what the reader was into. I decided that my main character would witness this assault. But how to describe it but rob it of any titillating aspect? I zoomed in on my mc. The scene is almost entirely about her reactions.

Of course, the result of that was she wants revenge, and the story has become about that. So that's interesting, from a how-do-I-handle-the-violence standpoint. And to be honest, the work-in-progress has stalled, partly due to that.

It's okay though. For NaNoWriMo I'd rather work on the fourth book in my mystery series anyway. But the issue of violence in my fiction is one I will no doubt continue to wrestle with!

In fiction, I draw the line at gratuitous violence without consequences.

Since I write a series with an assassin as protagonist, my books have plenty of violence and I'm as detailed in depiction of violence as I am in depicting anything else.

However, the violence is realistic (often short and brutal) and the consequences are also realistic. One person limps all through the second book from sustaining a gunshot wound in the first book. A person hit in the chest has to keep hospital bed rest because her xiphisternum is almost dislodged. When the xiphisternum dislodges later through reckless action, she needs to be operated on because the wandering xiphisternum causes internal bleeding.

I don't like books where the protagonist is hit in the head with a lead pipe and is up and running five minutes later.

Whatever serves the story. Gratuitous description of the violence is unnecessary and undesirable for me as a reader and a writer. Not because it is too graphic or realistic, but the opposite; it turns the action into a cartoon.

When Joey went down Sarah stomped his head, and didn't stop until the twitching did.

Enough said. Brutal. Horrific. It doesn't need imagery of blood spurting and brains oozing, doesn't need sounds or smells described in detail. The reader can supply all that for themselves.

But there is no line for me, because there is no line where real human beings stop and say, "This is too much violence."

I just finished reading Dan Brown's Deception Point and think it is an excellent engrossing white-knuckle read, but the violence [and profanity] was over the top for me.Far too gruesome and detailed and what especially bothered me~ Spoilers ahead:::::::::::::

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was his writing the violence from the victim's first person POV!!!!I found that very disturbing and distressing,and don't want to go through that again!
:(

Another thing I will not even read is any book that features any abuse or harm to a child.

I can take nongraphic murders or explosions, whatever, consistent with the plot and necessary to the story. I don't need to hear in detail about the bits hanging off the body, the blood coming from every orifice, etc. I can imagine enough to carry me thru, thank you.

At the first sign of animal violence, abuse, etc., the book goes in the bin. Without exception.

As to the erotic genre, I won't read anything with beatings or pain beyond the occasional smack on the ass and or blood, piercings, etc. Ick.