Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The winner for Revisit the Shelf May 2013 is by Betty Smith.

Looking forward to this reread. Come and join me in another discussion of the book.

About this book

(view spoiler)[Through it is often categorized as a coming-of-age novel, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is much more than that. Its richly-plotted narrative of three generations in a poor but proud American family offers a detailed and unsentimental portrait of urban life at the beginning of the century. The story begins in 1912, in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn, where eleven-year-old Francie Nolan and her younger brother, Neeley, are spending a blissful Saturday collecting rags, paper, metal, rubber, and other scrap to sell to the junk man for a few pennies. Half of any money they get goes into the tin can bank that is nailed to the floor in the back corner of a closet in their tenement flat. This bank, a shared resource among everyone in the family, is returned to time and again throughout the novel, and becomes a recurring symbol of the Nolan's self-reliance, struggles, and dreams.

Those dreams sustain every member of the extended Nolan family, not just the children. Their mother Katie scrubs floors and works as a janitor to provide the family with free lodging. She is the primary breadwinner because her husband Johnny, a singing waiter, is often drunk and out of work. Yet there is no dissension in the Nolan household. Katie married a charming dreamer and she accepts her fate, but she vows that things will be better for her children. Her dream is that they will go to college and that Neeley will become a doctor. Intelligent and bookish, Francie seems destined to fulfill this ambition - Neeley less so.

In spite of (or perhaps because of) her own pragmatic nature, Francie feels a stronger affinity with her ne'er-do-well father than with her self-sacrificing mother. In her young eyes, Johnny can make wishes come true, as when he finagles her a place in a better public school outside their neighborhood. When Johnny dies an alcohol-related death, leaving behind the two school-aged children and another on the way, Francie cannot quite believe that life can carry on as before. Somehow it does, although the family's small enough dreams need to be further curtailed. Through Katie's determination, Francie and Neeley are able to graduate from the eighth grade, but thoughts of high school give way to the reality of going to work. Their jobs, which take them for the first time across the bridge into Manhattan, introduce them to a broader view of life, beyond the parochial boundaries of Williamsburg. Here Francie feels the pain of her first love affair. And with determination equal to her mother's, she finds a way to complete her education. As she heads off to college at the end of the book, Francie leaves behind the old neighborhood, but carries away in her heart the beloved Brooklyn of her childhood. (hide spoiler)]

Some of you might prefer to use questions to help guide the discussion of the book. If so, I have some listed below; if not -- just ignore this post.

Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. In a particularly revealing chapter of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Francie's teacher dismisses her essays about everyday life among the poor as "sordid," and, indeed, many of the novel's characters seem to harbor a sense of shame about their poverty. But they also display a remarkable self-reliance (Katie, for example, says she would kill herself and her children before accepting charity). How and why have our society's perceptions of poverty changed - for better or worse - during the last one hundred years?

2. Some critics have argued that many of the characters in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn can be dismissed as stereotypes, exhibiting quaint characteristics or representing pat qualities of either nobility or degeneracy. Is this a fair criticism? Which characters are the most convincing? The least?

3. Francie observes more than once that women seem to hate other women ("they stuck together for only one thing: to trample on some other woman"), while men, even if they hate each other, stick together against the world. Is this an accurate appraisal of the way things are in the novel?

4. The women in the Nolan/Rommely clan exhibit most of the strength and, whenever humanly possible, control the family's destiny. In what ways does Francie continue this legacy?

5. What might Francie's obsession with order - from systematically reading the books in the library from A through Z, to trying every flavor ice cream soda - in turn say about her circumstances and her dreams?

6. Although it is written in the third person, there can be little argument that the narrative is largely from Francie's point of view. How would the book differ if it was told from Neeley's perspective?

7. How can modern readers reconcile the frequent anti-Semitism and anti-immigrant sentiments that characters espouse throughout the novel?

8. Could it be argued that the main character of the book is not Francie but, in fact, Brooklyn itself?

(From Reading Group Guides) (hide spoiler)]

My copy of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn has less than 500 pages (489) so I think that one month should give us time to read it. That would be about 15-16 pages a day.

Here is a schedule to help you finish by the end of the month.

May 5 - 11: Discuss Chapters 1 - 14

May 12 - 18: Discuss Chapters 15 - 32

May 19 - 25: Discuss Chapters 33 - 43

May 26 - 31: Discuss Chapters 44 - 56 (end of book)

No Spoilers Discussion

Of course you can read at any pace you want, but please don't post spoilers ahead in the discussion for those still reading.

Context of the Book

(view spoiler)[A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is a largely autobiographical work. Written by Betty Smith, it was first published in 1943 at the height of the second World War. Like Francie Nolan, Smith grew up in an impoverished Williamsburg in the early twentieth century. She and Francie even share the same birth date, although Smith was born five years before. Like Francie, Smith went to college without a high school diploma. She followed her husband and fellow Brooklynite to University of Michegan, where she took classes and wrote plays—one of Francie's ambitions in the novel. Smith was also a mother of two, and had to put off her own education to rear her children. Such a situation perhaps allowed for her sensitivity toward gender issues in the story. All in all, the novel is largely a case of "writing what one knows."

In fact, Smith had an interest in writing about Brooklyn apart from the book. She wrote commentary in the New York Times Magazine which included an essay "Why Brooklyn is that Way." She became Brooklyn's unofficial advocate, explaining that Brooklyn was like a small town that New Yorkers were trying to reject. Indeed, the strong sense of place in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn suggests that she knew the charms and lasting benefits that came with living in a small neighborhood community. One could even say that the title reveals the importance Smith attaches to place. After all, the novel is the story of Francie Nolan; it might have been titled after the heroine. It seems Smith would rather have her first priority be to represent time and place, and her second priority to create a character out of that setting.

Upon publication, the book was met with both praise and criticism. Smith was interrogated about her purpose for the book. Indeed, some accused it as overtly political; as social commentary, it was pro-union, compassionate toward the poor, and sexually libelous. Smith herself denied ever intending to write a book of "social significance." Instead, she had written out of her own experience, about people she both knew and liked. Still, even while the author denied a political purpose, the book cannot be separated from social issues.

People of all classes in society were reading the book when it first came out. Since most of the novel takes place between 1900 and 1917, place it was even then a nostalgic trip back to an innocent time before the two World Wars.

Today, the book remains a classic, read widely among school children. Oprah Winfrey called it one of the ten books that has deeply affected her life. Perhaps its popularity is partially attributed to Smith's sympathetic portrayal of her characters. Within the book's pages, people cannot be moralized or reformed; they are what they are, sometimes even without explanation. As her first novel, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn gained more popularity than any of Smith's other books. Her novels include Tomorrow Will Be Better (1947), Maggie-Now (1958), and Joy in the Morning (1963). She also wrote many plays before her death in 1972.

, , and (hide spoiler)]

A couple of YouTube clips from the movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-eFOJ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ix3zZ...

Anyone in for the read this time around?

Here is a fun quiz for when you finish the book:

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/brookly...

The Tree Still Grows in Brooklyn by Robert Cornfield

Betty Smith was five years older than her creation, Francie Nolan, who was born in 1901. Francie was the tree that grew in Brooklyn, the one that blossomed out of the pavements, whose strength was not recognized because the breed was so common. ''It grew in boarded-up lots and out of neglected rubbish heaps and it was the only tree that grew out of cement.'' ''A Tree Grows in Brooklyn,'' published in 1943, was an immediate best seller, and since then has become for its devoted readers a treasured rite of passage. A friend told me it was where she first learned at 12 about sex. Another reader was dismayed to realize that her mother had purloined incidents from Francie's childhood and made them her own, telling her daughter tales from the book as if she had lived them herself. The novelist Helen Schulman would read the book again and again, never finishing, each time starting from the beginning so that for her the book never ended.

More: http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/01/03...

Here is an in-depth review of the book.

http://www.hackwriters.com/brooklyn.htm

Wow, Kathy! I just found this thread and am so impressed with the job you're doing leading this discussion. I wished I knew you were leading and going into such detail as I would have certainly put the time in had I known. I'm overloaded with other reads now so unfortnately I can't catch up. I just wanted you to know that someone appreciates all the time you've put in. I will check in future months to see what other books you are going to cover.

Again, an excellent effort!

Cleo wrote: "Wow, Kathy! I just found this thread and am so impressed with the job you're doing leading this discussion. I wished I knew you were leading and going into such detail as I would have certainly p..."

Thanks Cleo! I appreciate the support.

Who knows, maybe you will have time later and can come back -- either reading the book or just read the posts.

Any last thoughts on the book?

I did like this book, and the description of the poverty in Brooklyn at the time. I especially enjoyed Francie and Aunt Sissy. To me they seemed the most "real" as characters.

We are reading this as a buddy read in June 2017. I am currently on page 150 and the book is reminiscent of yesteryear. My favorite series as a kid was All-of-a-Kind Family by Sydney Taylor and this book is like the adult version. Charming so far and easy reading.

I loved it when I read it years ago! I really need to do a reread. Enjoy!

I am enjoying it too. It reminds me a little of Angela's Ashes which came long after and was a true story. This feels like non fiction.

I'm almost halfway through. It is fiction and I wish I had read it when I was Francie's age.

Absolutely one of my most favorite books! Glad everyone is enjoying! 😊

I'm halfway through and I feel something big is going to happen soon.

So glad to see that we have buddy read for this book. The 2013 discussion was pretty one-sided. I hope you all enjoy the book as much as I did.

I'm not very far in yet (just under 100 pages), but I'm really enjoying this book so far! I wish I had more time to sit and read it. I love that we are exploring each family and the character of the people that make it up - each one is so human. I can't wait to read on. Hopefully I'll get more time this evening, but I just wanted to check in with you guys!

One reason why the people are so real is because it's a biographical novel. Smith is writing from experience and it shines through the pages.

oh I didn't know it was biographical fiction. I love the part in the book where the teacher tells Francie the difference between a lie and a story. It sounds like the author is doing the story. It's so cool.

Glad you are joining in Emily and glad Loretta and Kathy liked it. I haven't read the thread from prior but it sounds like it wasn't to popular. I'm surprised. It's very addictive for me. Beside the scene I mentioned above. I also love the one with the doll give away at the Christmas program and how Francie finds out the origin of her full name. I have a lot of Kindle highlights. I

that post is messed up with typos. I'll have to fix when I'm at the computer😯

Though it was near the beginning, so far a part that really resonated with me was when Mary visits Katie after Francie's birth and explained that with each generation, life will get better. We build on the experiences of those before us and pass on our knowledge, our skills, to our children. Each new generation has a better chance at life. I really loved this observation, and what it means still today. Just thought I'd share.

Sue I am also surprised that I am reading as quickly as I am. I just reached book 4 so I won't give anything away. I also think Mary Rommely is an underrated character. Her instilling in Katie that each generation will improve becomes an overarching theme in the novel. Especially touching is Mary insisting that they nail the tin can to the wall...I may have mentioned that my favorite series as a kid was All of a Kind Family books by Sydney Taylor. I am familiar with Jewish Brooklyn and the Lower East Side but reading about the Nolan family has been a learning experience for me. I have been comparing and contrasting as I go along.

I like that part too Emily and the nailing the bank to the wall Brina. There's so much good in this book. I'm going at it pretty fast as I have both the Kindle and Audio with whispersync, so it's effortless to go between the 2. I'm about half way

It keeps frustrating me how both parents play favorites and the kids pick up on it. I have 4 and I try not to play favorites as tough as it is at times. I have 80 pages left. At the end of the day this is a coming of age novel, a forerunner to what people today call ya. It is very fast reading. Sue good for you to take notes. I stopped doing that when I left school and rely on my reviews for remembering my thoughts on books.

Brina wrote: "It keeps frustrating me how both parents play favorites and the kids pick up on it. I have 4 and I try not to play favorites as tough as it is at times. I have 80 pages left. At the end of the day ..."

Oh I don't take notes, ever. I only highlight direct quotes I like when I read on Kindle because it's effortless. I feel like years forward I may want to look back on them. I guess it would also be good for reviews if you wanted to put a direct quote in there. I hardly ever get around to writing reviews (other than 2 or 3 line brief thoughts . I have to get better about doing that! Right now, I'm so addicted to reading that I'd rather spend free time reading than writing reviews. Next year I need to challenge myself to writing a certain percentage of reviews or something.

I don't have a kindle but I really should like the quotes I enjoy to look back on. I finished the book. It was lovely but I wasn't blown away by the end the way some other reviewers here were. I did like the biography and other reading material at the end and one thing I did like were that Francie's descriptions of Brooklyn as a place made me think of Rogers Park.

Brina wrote: "I don't have a kindle but I really should like the quotes I enjoy to look back on. I finished the book. It was lovely but I wasn't blown away by the end the way some other reviewers here were. I di..."

Wow that's fast Brina! I thought I was going fast. It will be a few more days for me. I've had a kindle for many years, but only recently started to embrace it because many of the Classics are free or super cheap for Kindle (99cents). I've always liked it for travel, which until joining this group last June, is pretty much the only time I used it in the past. The really cool thing is that since Amazon and Kindle are owned by the same company now, your highlights can appear under your review for all to see. You can choose one by one which ones to reveal to your friends and people can comment on the quotes too. That's only happened a couple times for me (that's how I found out people could comment) . It's still in Beta and many aren't used to it yet. Here are my highlights so far https://www.goodreads.com/notes/54870...

I read fast because now that school is out I'm up for hours before the kids and I don't have to work in the school kitchen. I catch up on classics and nonfiction in the summer with this extra time and lighter reads and contemporary during the school year.

Wow! You both have got me beat on finishing this book. Unfortunately most of my reading happens on weekends right now since the work week gets so busy. I'm plugging away as fast as I can. I'm still really liking the novel. I feel for Francie as she is growing up - I remember how the world got less glamorous for me as I grew and understood things.
It has been some time since I read a coming of age novel, and I just love how this one reads. You can tell Betty Smith wrote from her heart.
Anyway, did any of you have a favorite character or one who you related with more than others as you read?

Besides Francie, I really liked Sissy. She really had a good heart and imparted wisdom on Francie. I think she realized that she did not get a full amount of mother's love from Katie. Also, despite what everyone in the neighborhood said about her, she went about her business and did not let the snickering get to her.

I also really like Sissy. She is her own woman! She isn't afraid to live as she pleases, whether seen as "good" or "bad". And she seems so loving from what I've read so far. She was there for Katie after Francie was born, there for Johnny during his withdrawal and is there for Francie, too. The gift of the gold pennies was such a touching moment, and I was so sad that Francie had to put them in the tin bank.

And then to find out that they turned black in the tin over time... poor Francie.

Alright, so I JUST finished this last night (sorry guys, this turned into a VERY busy week for me), but I loved this book so much. I wish I had read it back in my teens too, just to see how I would've connected back then. I love that the overarching themes of this novel are still relevant today. I guess growing up is growing up, no matter when you do it. I also loved taking a peek inside this time period. So glad you picked this novel for a buddy read, as the recommendation was what first caused me to look into this. So thank you, and hope to read with you guys in the future!

Emily wrote: "Alright, so I JUST finished this last night (sorry guys, this turned into a VERY busy week for me), but I loved this book so much. I wish I had read it back in my teens too, just to see how I would..."

I agree with you guys about Sissy. She was the best. For me, I'm glad I read it now. I wouldn't have related to it when I was young because I was a Tom boy, out playing every different sport, was very social and never bullied (though I stuck up for those who were bullied). Francie did remind me a lot of my sister though. I also felt like my parents loved all of us the same even though my sister, being the youngest was favored.

There's a difference between being favored and being loved more and I kind of think Betty Smith may have got the two confused. In my experience with my own family and many friends, boys often bond more with mothers and girls with fathers. If there are two of the same sex, usually one bonds more with a different parent. (of course there are lots of exceptions because personality plays a large part) In my case, being the middle child who didn't have any social or academic problems, I got the least attention by far of the 3 of us, but I didn't feel less loved. Later I had a step family and that was way different of course.

One of my friends who had two girls said once that one was her pride and the other her joy. I think that explains it perfectly. Most people love them the same but treat them differently based on their personalities. Stronger more independent one's get less attention because they don't need it as much. Of course there are abusive parents and some who really do not love their children the same, but I really didn't get that sense with Katie despite the author writing it that way, The examples felt to me to be the way my little sister was favored. Plus, people had kids so young (even my parents generation) and they got better with each one. They were more mature with each one and learned from mistakes made on the earlier children.

Sue I was also a total tomboy. I know shocking haha so I am glad I read it now as well. Definitely, I try not to favor my son but because I was a tomboy I relate to him especially because with three girls I need space from all their girliness-- stuff I did not like as a kid- clothes, shoes, nails, etc. My husband actually likes that stuff so he does relate to the girls. We both try to have alone time with all four kids... So as a girl, I did not read traditional girl classics. I loved detective books though- Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, and all books with strong girl protagonists. I'm glad I finally read this story and next up I should finally read Little Women maybe ;)

Brina wrote: "Sue I was also a total tomboy. I know shocking haha so I am glad I read it now as well. Definitely, I try not to favor my son but because I was a tomboy I relate to him especially because with thre..."

I wouldn't have known that Brina! We have another thing in common. I used to think that most women who liked baseball were Tomboys growing up, but my niece loves baseball and she's pretty girly. I didn't like to read at all (as I recall anyway) until Jr. High and then I read Steven King and other Horror type books. I needed that adrenaline to keep my attention as I was (and still am) ADD. This group has been so great because it's allowed me to embrace my inner introvert.

I played softball for four years and never liked girly stuff at all. I've always loved reading, my whole life, but by middle school I went from kids books straight to adult books. No classics in our house sadly, just contemporary. But I'm thinking that this book is not one I would have enjoyed. Francie is a strong character but there was not enough action for my adolescent self.

Brina wrote: "I played softball for four years and never liked girly stuff at all. I've always loved reading, my whole life, but by middle school I went from kids books straight to adult books. No classics in ou..."

Sue and Brina,
I was also a tomboy when I was younger! Most of the time I hung out with the boys. I was bullied, so I did relate to Francie in this way. Girls were the worst of it! I loved reading and wrote quite a bit growing up, so I also connected with her there. As for whether I would've enjoyed this as a teen, I'm not certain. I would just love to know what young Emily would've made of this novel!

how funny that the 3 of us were all tomboys!

Hello all! I believe I'm super behind all of you, as I just started reading (I'm in the beginning of Book 3), but I wanted to share that I loved the chapter on the stores in the neighborhood - and am really enjoying the book in general. :)

(I'm going to wait to read the comments above until I'm further along.)

Francisca - Can't wait to hear what you think!

Me, as well. I must admit though I am on a book rampage. Without a school schedule I have all the time in the world to read and taking full advantage. Happy reading, Francisca.

Francisca wrote: "Hello all! I believe I'm super behind all of you, as I just started reading (I'm in the beginning of Book 3), but I wanted to share that I loved the chapter on the stores in the neighborhood - and ..."

I'm the same way Francisca, don't like to read comments or reviews until I've read it. Hope you like it as much as we did.

Oh I'd love to read this but maybe not this time round. :-(. I keep spotting it when it's too late! Enjoy!

I finished last night! At some point, I just couldn't put it down and have been musing about it all morning (I even spent most of lunch recommending it to a colleague). So yes, I think I can say I liked it! And I think my adolescent self would've liked it too :)

I think my favorite part was really the way that Smith really makes 1910's Brooklyn real - as if you could go and walk down the street and meet some of these characters. (Maybe this is in part because it's semi-autobiographical.) And (despite coming from a completely different background) I found myself identifying a lot with Francie, also in the love for reading and writing but also in feeling a bit outside the crowd growing up.

I agree with Sue on the favoring vs loving more - I think Katie actually puts it well, when she decides to send Neeley to highschool instead of Francie because Francie will fight her way to go back to school while Neeley wouldn't. Different children have different needs, and it'd be silly to treat them all exactly the same. And in my family, my mom gets along better with my brother and I tend to get along better with my dad, though we both know we're well-loved. As a kid though, some of those little differences can really hurt; maybe that's why Betty Smith conflates the two a bit.

Another aspect of the book I really enjoyed is simply that I think it's one of the best "coming of age" stories I've read. She really does an amazing job of depicting that slow growing in understanding of the world around us and how everything relates - like in the scene about the North Pole game.

I should probably finish my lunch break now... I just wanted to share some of my thoughts! :)