The Sword and Laser discussion

Discussion for book 5 of the omnibus. No spoilers for the Shift books please.

I am only about half way through The Stranded (loving the book and burning through it at a quick pace for me) and I am getting the impression that this book has largely been about the fact that conflict is part of human nature and that there will never be such a thing as world peace. As I say I am not all the way through so there may be further twists to come but I have just got to the point where it was revealed to Lukas that the whole 'Silo Project' was an attempt to rid the world of all but one group of people so that there could be a new world where all people were by and large the same so that there would not be conflicts over resources, religion or cultural differences that have been an ongoing part of human history.

Although this is the overall goal of the Project a large part of the world, or rather silo-building of the book in the earlier sections was about how divided the silo was. Eliminating all other races and cultures from the face of the world didn't end conflict as people will always find a way to segregate themselves from one another and conflicts will arise.

The silo is a place where race may have been eliminated as an issue but there is a clearly defined social strata with the uppers, mids and lowers. Discrimination not being based so much on the colour of someones skin but rather the colour of their work overalls. How could this Project ever hope to bring about a peace on earth when it cannot prevent the few people in each silo fighting among themselves and stop conflicts over resources between departments?

I think this is very well done and, as bleak as the idea is that as long as there is mankind there will never be peace is I am finding it a very enjoyable book.

@Neil - if you read the sequel books called Shift your answers are there. Shift is actually a couple of different stories that are all prequels and fill in the time from the end of the world to the events of Wool. Howey is currently writing the next set of books, I believe they are called Dust, and those will be direct sequels to Wool.

Rik wrote: "@Neil - if you read the sequel books called Shift your answers are there."

Good because I will be reading that as soon as I clear another couple of books of my 'to read' list. :)

Loved the book too and ended up not hating IT as much as when I started. They had a role to fulfill and they tried to fulfill it--many times in a very mercenary way.

For a long time, relative peace was maintained: start speaking out too much, you go outside. Start a revolution, people die (and thus so does the revolution eventually), IT erases all record of it, people go back to doing their jobs and shutting up. Wool over our eyes, peace maintained, we endure... and then there's Juliette.

Very bleak with a tiny, teeny ray of sunshine.

@Leesa: if you read Shift you get a whole lot more insight to IT.

I've picked up the Shift books finally and hope to get to them soon.

I wasn't crazy about the book as a whole. It felt kind of disjointed, probably because of how it was published so I understand. I'll likely be in the minority on this one but it just didn't do anything for me. Not my cup of tea I suppose.

I enjoyed the book, although the ending felt rushed given the more deliberate pacing of the rest of it.

Some of Juliette's actions in the final book seemed inconsistent with the attention to detail she had previously demonstrated. I liked Solo a lot and wish he had been given more to do. The Lukas character was not very interesting and Peter's transformation was very abrupt.

And just because the planners didn't install elevators or subsequent generations ripped them out, wouldn't industrious Mechanics have created a few for their own use?

Nonetheless, I am definitely interested in learning more about the Wool world, so I immediately picked up the Shift Omnibus.

I really did love this series, my biggest issue being, that the conclusion felt in no way conclusive. But i figure that was deliberate as there are to be several books to both follow and precede Wool. Guess i will have to pick them up.

@ Neil I thing the devision of the sections of the silo was on purpose. I think Bernard makes this clear near the end. It was a divide and conquer strategy. The whole silo project was just about survival. When they finally got out I'm assuming the legacy would tell them what to do for this 'utopia'. Not saying that's realistic.

I finished the book early and loved it. It was gripping from the very first short story. I loved Juliette as a character. A female character who is strong, solves problems, and is a leader in a male dominated world. It was nice to see a fictional world were the genders were equal.

Bernard was a wonderful villain. I really hated him, but near the end understood why he did some things. It's still not clear who was right. Will the new way of doing things end in another red x?

I agree that I will have to keep reading. So addictive.

Rick wrote: "And just because the planners didn't install elevators or subsequent generations ripped them out, wouldn't industrious Mechanics have created a few for their own use?"

My "logical" answer for that is it was probably forbidden by the pact/order, just like drilling horizontally was. It makes sense in light of what we learn regarding everything else.

Leesa wrote: "Loved the book too and ended up not hating IT as much as when I started. They had a role to fulfill and they tried to fulfill it--many times in a very mercenary way."

I'm right there with you. Yeah, hating Bernard is one thing, since he was an overzealous nutbag with paranoid disorder, but he was mostly doing he job, in a way that was anecdotally/empirically proved as necessary. More than one silo (3?) feel, and he was trying to avoid that.

If anything, I think the only department we could slap a big "blame" sticker on is Supply. I mean, they were the ones providing crappy parts without any excuse for doing it. IT at least could state their reasons. But Supply? "Just following orders" is all I can think of.

If anything, I think the only department we could slap a big "blame" sticker on is Supply. I mean, they were the ones providing crappy parts without any excuse for doing it. IT at least could state their reasons. But Supply? "Just following orders" is all I can think of. "

I actually wonder how far the knowledge of the conspiracy of the suits goes. It seems it is only Bernard who has the full knowledge of what is going on and that there are other silos out there so what does everyone else think?

It is said that the people in IT are working on new suit designs to make them last longer but is that a lie or are there people in IT working on new designs trying to help not knowing that someone else is switching out the components so they fail? When Lukas was picked to shadow Bernard he must have been a fairly trustworthy member of IT to be chosen but he knew very little about the truth before then which makes me wonder how much everyone else knows.

And sure supply are giving IT the crappy components but do the people in supply know they are crappy? It could be that they think they are the better components that are helping to keep people alive for as long as possible and is why they are reserved for IT.

Rick wrote: "And just because the planners didn't install elevators or subsequent generations ripped them out, wouldn't industrious Mechanics have created a few for their own use?"

Yes! Thank you, Rick. The whole time I've been trying to stop thinking that. I mean even if the mechanics didn't build full on elevators, how about a basket, a rope, and a pulley to move supplies around?

That aside I very much enjoyed the story. I thought it was a satisfying ending (once I got to the epilogue).

No huge surprises. I even expected Jules to find Bernard in the suite. I wasn't too happy with them sending him to cleaning. I mean it seems like Bernard was denied due process because Peter couldn't have pulled it off if he'd followed the law. Doesn't really feel like justice.

All and all a very good read. Maybe one of the best I've read with Sword and Laser.

I found this last part slow. I feel like Howey wrote a lot tighter in the early books because he wasn't either writing or a short story or not sure how this was all going to end up (from a publishing point of view). In the last book he finally knew he had a hit and this being the last part he could slow down and explain things.

And I have to say it wasn't my favorite. I liked the story fo the radios, but I felt like we spent too much time explaining things. Howey's a good writer and it wasn't that I disliked the writing. I just missed the earlier pace. I felt the descent and ascent of Jules was slow for the same reasons.

But that's just relative enjoyment o the other parts. I devoured this thing FAST (for me), so I still loved it.

I cannot WAIT to read Shift and for him to finish Dust. Come on HOWEY! Heh heh.

Tom wrote: "I found this last part slow. I feel like Howey wrote a lot tighter in the early books because he wasn't either writing or a short story or not sure how this was all going to end up (from a publish..."

Totally agree. That's why it was frustrating that the very end of the book (from the point where Juliette leaves Silo 17) is so rushed. I remember looking at the percentage left on the Kindle and feeling so disappointed that the story would leave us hanging.

Do you think that modern authors are cheating readers by writing for open-ended series? I've only recently come back to reading genre fiction, but this idea of eternal serializations (like the Dune books) seems to be a by-product of aiming to create Hollywood franchises.

I am not unhappy with the ending - I could honestly have lived with letting it stay there without getting the future issues.

That way, you can discuss for yourself what will happen. Is freedom the right choice? Or will it kill the Silo? As was stated, even though Bernard was quite ruthless, there are precedences to Silos dying because of it. The silo is a very, very complex system that can fail in any number of ways.

If you end the series there, you really engender discussion instead of the author just giving his answer to the questions later on.

My main questions, which I guess will be adressed in the Shift series, is how did IT do what they are doing. I admit that I fail to see how the conspiracy can work with exactly one guy knowing all the variables. The risk seems entirely too high for me. What happens if he falls down the shaft without having a shadow ready?

And how does he find the "viruses" in the system and eliminates them? If I remember correctly, there was somewhere stated that Bernard killed 14 people that had not been sent to cleaning. How? Especially with having an independent sheriff running around.

I like that this book balances things out some. However in the end Bernard was exactly who I thought him to be. You start to understand him and his side as you learn more about the mission of IT.

However, he's so by the book, and afraid to diverge that he brings about his inevitable downfall. Maybe I'm just being too idealistic.

Either way I'm happy with the ending, the first few books were rather depressing with the constant death of major characters.

I didn't like the open ending. Juliette doesn't bother to contact Solo at all? That bugged me most (yes, we get to see some of what he does in the epilogue but it feels so tacked on). I understand Howey is writing more books but I'd like it to feel like a proper end to a book. Some closure on that part of the story. It felt like listening "A Day in the Life" and the song ending halfway through.

I don't find it at all unbelievable that IT could kill 14 people. They have enough special privileges and secrecy to pull that off certainly. You only send people to cleaning for the psychological effect of discouraging folks from wanting to go outside and explore. That all makes sense to me.

Also the helmets have a camera. They don't need to be transparent in order to be able to see out. That's stated explicitly. The people wearing them don't know they have a camera.

I do wonder about the single point of failure that is Bernard. Before he takes on Lukas, what happens if he has a heart attack? Or slips on the stairs? Is there a dead-man's lock on an email that goes out to somebody letting them know about the secret rooms or something? Not impossible to resolve but does seem like a pretty risky way to go about things in a place that is built with redundancy and risk-aversion as the top priority.

I wonder if whoever Bernard called in silo 1 would like send an email to someone and get them secret keys or something. There must be a backup plan. Even with Bernard and a shadow, that's not really a fool proof plan, everyone knows that the head of IT is a powerful guy, what's to stop someone from going after 2 of them, or them getting sick or being near some sort of explosion.

Everything seems so planned out, I just want to know what the plans are. I want a copy of that book Bernard has with all the plans and information. Howey should publish that after he finishes with Dust.

Also, I really liked the fact that the main character was a female mechanic and nobody seemed to act like that was a big deal. I fell like that never happens. When female characters have traditionally make roles they often seem to stand out for it or get noticed for it. Everyone just takes Juliette's mechanical abilities in stride.

Also, I really liked the fact that the main character was a female mechanic and nobody seemed to act like that was a big deal.

Yes! I forgot she was a female mechanic. I just knew who she was as a character. her gender didn't define her. It wasn't hidden, just a normal part of who she was.

I wanted a more dystopian end. There was so much hope and nobility. Has nobody read Animal Farm? My only hope is that her drive for truth and openness leads to the silo's downfall. Remember, they are not alone in the world and this should cause huge ripples. (Bring me more dystopia!)

Jenny wrote: "I wanted a more dystopian end. There was so much hope and nobility. Has nobody read Animal Farm? My only hope is that her drive for truth and openness leads to the silo's downfall. Remember, they a..."

Remind me to live in a different silo from you ^_^

The ending felt more like how the Buffy TV series ended. A lot of bad stuff happened, yet I am left feeling hopeful that everything will be okay.

For me the pace of this last part made me keep going. I ended a chapter feeling frustrated that more progress wasn't made, so I just kept reading.

Bernard's death was interesting. I think Peter gave Bernard some of his own medicine. Bernard couldn't see how much of his own actions fueled the virus infecting Juliette and the others. If he hadn't killed George, she would have never met Holston and Deputy Marnes, never been visited by the Mayor on her ill-fated trip, would never have been Sheriff, never have met Lukas. I'd like to believe that he wanted to die in the end when he pushed Jules away, that he wasn't just panicking.

I will definitely be reading Shift soon.

I adored this book. This in to one of my all day weekend reads.

I know that a lot of people have been saying that they understand why IT did what they did better once it was explained. And, while, yes we understand them better, the truth made me even angrier.

Not only did they have a system set up so that if the head of IT turned out to be a nutcase like Brenard an uprising is the only way to remove them from power. Instead of a group handling the mission it was one person, with at most 2 others actually knowing and understanding what is going on in that paticular Silo. If there had been a council that oversaw IT's objective with Brenard as the figure head, things would have had a better chance of not escalating the way they did.

I also didn't like the whole virus idea, that's removing your best and brightest. What are you going to do if there's an actual crisis in some other are other than IT. Such as that generater breaking down. I think it would make more sense to bring those that you could convince into the know, giving you more eyes and ears and only sending someone to clean when they couldn't be convinced.

But I guess with the classiest society that was portrayed that kind of thinking was impossible. Particularly for someone like Brenard and if the selection proccess for the head of IT tended toward that kind of personality, I guess it's not surprising.

There were some gripes I had with this last book, so I'm going to get them off my chest right now.

Firstly, after the careful introduction of so many interesting characters in the earlier books, Lukas just seemed kind of dumped on us. First he's just some guy who likes stars and has the hots for Juliette, then he's all creepy obsessed with her in no time at all, then he's suddenly friends with Bernard and going to shadow him, but, oh, it's okay because he's actually a decent guy and won't do it, but oh, he just said that stupid thing and now he's going to die and I can't think of a good reason to care. Where was the clever build up we had with the rest of the people, that would have left me gripped by his uncomfortable situation, rather than bored and wondering why he wasn't reading the right book and figuring out how to make things better? Who was this guy anyway?

Also, Juliette's reaction to him being put out to clean. I totally understand why she had to try to rescue him. I would have too. For a long time he was the only sane, comforting voice she heard from home. That's reason enough to want to save him, whether you buy into the love story or not. But why would she not take as much bloody oxygen as possible? She has twice in recent times nearly died due to her oxygen running out. It's the stupidest thing ever not to bring as much as possible, for Lukas if not herself! This dumb dumb action made me angrier than when Lukas told Bernard he wanted out, which was also incredibly stupid. Was there something in the water?

Rrrrah! And now I feel better.

But really, gripes aside, I did enjoy the book as a whole, and there was plenty of fun to be had in this part. I like the introduction of the kids, which was cleverly done because I'm sure I'm not the only one to imagine it was evil bad guys that caused the earlier trouble, and not just scared children. It left me wondering about whether the silo could be repopulated, and what troubles that might cause.

I guessed at the end that it was Bernard in the suit, but felt I was meant to from earlier clues, and enjoyed watching his reactions to Juliette, knowing something she didn't. I wasn't sure how I viewed his death, but the part of me that loves bad guy redemption in stories likes best the thought that maybe he knew his suit would weaken and catch in spite of her protection, and that he was attempting to get away from her to stop her from burning too. The more cynical part thinks he was angry enough with her to maliciously wish to destroy them both.

I felt the ending was completely satisfying, since it tied up enough of the necessary threads without closing off the things I like to wonder about. Personally, I hope that Lukas keeps up a pretence of control in communications with other silo's, because I suspect they could cause trouble if he does not. I like the idea of 18 and the supposable dead 17 being secret renegade silo's, gathering data and working together against the plan.

Overall I really enjoyed this book. My only complaint was that some of the plot lines were a bit to obvious. "Everyone who gets close to the truth dies" comes to mind, as does the part where Julie went diving in a makeshift diving suit. What happens almost every time you read this or see it in a movie?
However, I didn't see the final cleaning twist coming. I guess HH had me convinced that there were no good people left in the silo. It was nice to be proven wrong:)

I think they weren't allowed to have elevators because it was a way to control the population - not only was it difficult to mount an uprising, it kept the people tired, insulated and compliant.

Also, was anyone else surprised about the lack of religion? They made reference to priests a couple times, but it didn't seem like religion was a big part of anyone's life. I think it was interesting he skipped over that aspect, because so much dystopic fiction concentrates on how religion is used to control through fear. I suppose the cleaning could be looked at as a religious element, but it wasn't apparent that the priests had much involvement.

Maybe getting rid of religion was one of the goals of the founders. they might have bet trying to get away from all of the violence and hatred that happens in the name of religion.

My take on the one-point-of-failure issue with Bernard is this: He, and others like him, are what _cause_ the failures of other silos. They get so wrapped up in the protection of the silo, that they stop trusting anyone who doesn't think just like them. It could be that he had tried to have others shadow him in the past, and then "tricked" them into cleaning because they expressed reservations about his interpretation of the Pact.

I can imagine other silos that have committees instead of a single man, who still do the same things that Bernard did but with group-think bolstering their resolve.

The only difficulty I have with the premise of the book(s) reflect an issue that Jules had; knowing just how toxic the outside is should be enough to keep people in. Why use intimidation and taboo about the outside when the actual outside is deadly!? Now, if there was no "window" to the outside to remind people of how terrible it is out there, then I can see uprisings occur under the false assumption that they're being lied to with regards to how toxic it is. I could see public executions inside the silo instead of cleanings to control the population without the cameras providing daily proof of the desolation of the world. But being able to see the desolation of the outside, wouldn't it be just as effective at quashing people's desire to leave if they sent some condemned* people out in the best suits possible, and then had them test the air by taking off their helmet when they ran out of air?

* Condemned for murder or other crimes, not for talking about the outside.

Ruth wrote: "Firstly, after the careful introduction of so many interesting characters in the earlier books, Lukas just seemed kind of dumped on us."

I kind of enjoyed the fact that Lukas was a little flat. The parallel to Romeo and Juliet seemed pretty apt, both in that they were part of different departments, and because the romance seemed to blossom out of nowhere without them knowing each other very well. And I especially liked having a compelling, fleshed out female lead who had a flat male romantic interest. It's a nice contrast to a lot of stories out there with the reverse!

But I think I agree with the people who are saying that the characters weren't very fleshed out - I only felt like I really understood Juliette, and a little bit Shirly at the end.

Robert of Dale wrote: "My take on the one-point-of-failure issue with Bernard is this: He, and others like him, are what _cause_ the failures of other silos. They get so wrapped up in the protection of the silo, that the..."

Holsten had the "window" on the deadly outside but still doubted the truth of it...since it was a screen that he figured could be manipulated he began to assume that he was lied to, so I get wanting some redundancy in convincing people to stay inside.

Robert of Dale wrote:"But being able to see the desolation of the outside, wouldn't it be just as effective at quashing people's desire to leave if they sent some condemned* people out in the best suits possible, and then had them test the air by taking off their helmet when they ran out of air?"

The best suits possible might allow people to make it to other Silos which is what they care about. Relying on the actual danger to deter people rather than taboo might cause some people to see outside as a challenge. With a taboo the rest of the population will support bundling any wannabe explorers out the airlock without proper preparation.

Where does IT get its electric power from? I believe it is stated to be consuming 34% of Mechanical's power output. Bernard strongly resists any cut to his power supply. Yet when mechanical do cut the power IT doesn't appear to be affected. I find it hard to believe they have a UPS that can outlast a civil war against supply and mechanical. Are they drawing power from the other Silos somehow?

I'm pretty sure it was stated in either book 4 or 5 that IT does get it's electricity from the other Silo's if their own power fails. Was in some schematics that Solo showed, and I believe Bernard said something to the same effect to Lucas.

I still hate IT and Bernard with them. I guess though I am holding a grudge. As for the major plan of repopulating a homogenus population for your country going under caught me off guard.

I thoroughly enjoyed Wool, and I will most definitely be picking up Shift! I'm really looking forward to finding out some of the backstory behind the formation of the silo societies.

I just have one question in book 5 relating to the kids Jules runs into. How did their parents die? We know that Solo has been "alone" for 30+ years, so the kids must have been born after the collapse of Silo 17's society. They've obviously been alone for a while, but it can't have been too, too long or the kids themselves probably wouldn't have lasted, so did their parents just happen to die / get killed all at the same time?

I thought the introduction of the kids was a great twist, but unless I mis-read, the timings seemed a little off in that instance.

Ooooh, that's a good point, Tiffany, I hadn't really considered that.

Speculative post (no spoilers beyond this book please):
I seem to remember that there were all kinds of squabbles between the people who remained in the Silo, so perhaps while Solo was on his own, hiding from the rest, for 30 years, there were others in the silo after this time that eventually killed each other off. I guess the parents got killed, and the last committed suicide or something without ever even knowing about the kids, and then the oldest would have had to look after the rest. But maybe I'll have to re-read that part of the book again; I forget exactly how it was all explained.

Tiffany wrote: "I thought the introduction of the kids was a great twist, but unless I mis-read, the timings seemed a little off in that instance. "

Juliette brought attention to her birth control implant when she encountered the kids the first time. I took that to mean that they had been born long after the uprising in silo 17 to people who had been children at that time. If the people who survived the uprising had children, they wouldn't have been able to give them implants, and they would start having babies around the time they became sexually active. Maybe they were intentionally trying to repopulate and some kind of backstabby thing happened resulting in all of the adults dying?

Because of their age and behavior, what I assumed is that the kids were probably part of a pretty small group that chose to just hide in the garden and go on with their lives. Maybe even small enough that most of them were related. They can't have been alone longer than the non-infant had been alive, but honestly that only requires that two adults had been around for years. I guess the story I told myself were that there were very few adults around, maybe only two or one for quite a while, and that person/people left very recently before/when Juliette showed up and maybe died in an accident or something. The jumpy way the oldest boy reacted, the way they took to being told what to do quite quickly, seemed to me like they had been recently told to stay extra hidden and safe, something went wrong, and they didn't know what to do. Maybe the eldest had been born when there were more people around and the silo was still falling, but then the child/children were hidden to be protected while the rest came down, and Solo never noticed them because he didn't go into the garden that far.

Not that it's particularly important what exactly happened, but that's what I assumed myself, and I didn't think it was too farfetched for a very small group of mostly kids to stay hidden from Solo for years.

Something else that kind of annoyed me was the part where they said they had to stop the guy who came up with the idea of lateral mining. Obviously they could not allow that as eventually someone would dig their way into another silo. But, with the exception of maybe diamond mining, almost all mining is lateral. You can't do much mining if you just dig vertically.

I agree with a lot of the comments posted here already. I probably got the least enjoyment out of reading this last part. Things got a bit too nebulous and fuzzy in comparison to the earlier parts of the book. That said, I really did enjoy the book as a whole.

I loved that Juliette's time as a mechanic is part of what kept her alive during her jaunt to Silo 17 and I also love that her gender was a total non-issue throughout the book. But, some of the other characters, Lukas and Bernard in particular all felt a little flat and one-dimensional to me. I suppose some of that is that we never really get too much from their perspective - we spend probably somewhere in the region of two thirds of the book with Juliette and a lot of it's based on her perspective, including a fair portion of what we see of both Lukas and Bernard. They just felt a little 'one note' to me. Lukas was the naive optimist constantly holding out for something better and he doesn't seem to grow out of that despite being thrown into a civil war and then basically imprisoned in the server room. And Bernard is always the creepy "but I'm not evil" bad guy. I just feel like they got perhaps a little too much screen-time for background characters but not enough to be fully fledged secondary charcters.

The ending worked well enough, it gave enough resolution that if you don't carry on and read any more, you can see a logical outcome from what's there but there's just enough that's left open that if you want to come back, there's something you're already attached to/interested in to carry on with.

That said, I'm not sure if I want to carry on to Shift after this. If it's more like the first half of these stories then hell yeah, I'm in. But if they're more like the slower, more meandering latter half... I don't think I want to.