The Sword and Laser discussion

I am so glad I read this book. It was so ...solid seems a dull, but very accurate word for it, though it was so much better than that. The story sat on a really solidly built foundation, so once the story really got going, I had such a clear image of everywhere we visited and everything we experienced, making it completely satisfying. The story build and build upon things that had already been established, but still managed some surprising twists (well, some had been signposted pretty strongly, but still nicely done, and Gurgeh's visit to the city with the drone provided some unexpected and wonderful pathos, and I felt that punch in the stomach of realisation that I think Gurgeh must have.

Speaking of, what do you think Gurgeh was planning on doing when he won? I felt that his compliance and insistence on playing went beyond the urge to play the game to some kind of thought within Gurgeh that he was to defeat the Emperor to show them that they were wrong. I'm not sure exactly how he wanted to follow his victory, but I'm sure, after seeing what he had seen, it would have been some form of resistance.

Great book, and I'm looking forward to reading more of the culture books.

It's clear (I think) that once he chose to play as the Culture, he could not win without destroying the Empire.

Well, in a way... The Emperor chose to destroy himself, the game, and Gurgeh rather than lose, and the drone explained that had Gurgeh won, Culture would have declared war on the empire, but Gurgeh was unaware of these things when he chose to keep playing. It seemed to me that he had something up his sleeve, and once I'd finished reading, I couldn't help but wonder what.

Ruth wrote: "Well, in a way... The Emperor chose to destroy himself, the game, and Gurgeh rather than lose, and the drone explained that had Gurgeh won, Culture would have declared war on the empire, but Gurgeh..."

Gurgeh was losing when he was trying to play as an Imperial would. He switched to playing as the Culture, and knew that he had won long before the Emperor did. That is made implicit in the text. The Emperor did not "choose to destroy himself rather than lose"; he had already lost. The Emperor chose to destroy himself (and Gurgeh) rather than admit defeat, but that is not the same thing. He had by that point read the true outcome of the game.

I see your point, but I meant the same thing. He could see that he was going to lose (officially, he hadn't lost, there was just no way for him to not lose; this wasn't chess, where check mate is as far as it goes) and so he chose death rather than officially losing.

I'm curious what would have happened had the emperor let himself be defeated. That Gurgeh was playing had already been covered up, and he knew from the start that he couldn't become emperor or gain any other position from the game, so officially it was no disaster. On the other hand, the game was so ingrained on the Emperor, that losing could not help but change him, weaken him.

Ruth,

I think the emperor's reaction emerges from how the empire views the game. At the start of the book as Gurgeh is learning about the game and the empire he's told that the empire uses the game to determine who rules and for placement in the service of the empire because the game is viewed as a proxy for life. If you're good at the game, you'll be good at ruling. The better you are, the more fit you are for ruling and the best player is the most fit to rule, i.e. to be emperor.

By defeating the emperor while playing in a style that reflected the values of Culture, Gurgeh proves that in Azad's own paradigm, the Culture is superior to the Empire. I think the emperor simply could not accept this and would rather see his empire fall than see it overrun by the Culture's values.

Here's my ramblings after finishing the book the other day and thinking about it for a bit.

This was a re-read for me and I think I enjoyed it more the second time around. Having read all of the Culture books except The Hydrogen Sonata it's amazing how consistent the Culture is through the entire series. There are things in this book that are explained later on and vice versa without spoiling the stand alone value of each individual book.

One thing I had forgotten was that the final reveal comes on the very last line of the book. This is one of my favorite traits of several of Bank's books. This one was not that hard to spot, but it was nice how he ended it.

It seems obvious that Contact and SC set this all up right from the start. The Azad Empire was on the brink of falling apart and the Culture just wanted to tip it over the edge without any obvious aggression. Azad was so engrained in the Empires power and socioeconomic structure that the easiest way of disrupting them was to discredit the game. Once they realized that an alien was superior to them in almost every way their whole civilization would fall apart. I guess the emperor could see this coming and being one of the few who knew some of the size, and capabilities, of the Culture he knew the Empire could not fight the Culture or anything like that. Even so, what did he think would happen if he killed Gurgeh? There's a basic saying common to most of the intelligent races in the galaxy (it's even quoted in this book somewhere). That is "Don't f**k with the Culture". The Culture is basically a very stable, peaceful society, but I think part of that stability is due to carrying a VERY BIG stick. They might have let it go, but if not, I doubt if the Empires navy could have stopped the Limiting Factor , even with 6 of it's 8 weapons removed.

A great book and one I always recommend to people:)

AndrewP wrote: "The Culture is basically a very stable, peaceful society, but I think part of that stability is due to carrying a VERY BIG stick. They might have let it go, but if not, I doubt if the Empires navy could have stopped the Limiting Factor , even with 6 of it's 8 weapons removed."

There's the Culture and then there are the Minds. Stable is a good word! The Culture is basically a stable of beings who want for nothing, but all decisions for the Culture are made by the Minds, and their actions are hidden from the general public. This makes the Culture either an oligarchy or a meritocracy depending on your semantic leanings (I favour the former, as the Culture is only a meritocracy if one counts processing power as the sole merit worth counting.) One of the things I really enjoy about the series is the authorial ambivalence on the virtues of the Culture. It is no utopia. Or is it?

There are times when it's said that decisions are put to a plebiscite (see Surface Detail) but also most certainly times when SC or even a cabal of Minds decides on an action (Excession). One of the things I've always liked about Banks' portrayal of the Culture is its complexity.

On utopia... materially I think it's a utopia in the sense that no one wants for anything. Material needs just aren't a concern and while we in developed countries don't lack for that much billions around the world do. Imagine no hunger, poverty, no reason to covet something because if you wanted it, you could have it.

Psychologically I'm not so sure. Look at Gurgeh in Player and in various characters throughout the series -there's a restlessness and a questioning of purpose in many of the books. After all, if one can be effectively immortal and have almost any desire fulfilled without much effort... what's left? Why continue to exist aside from merely continuing? And then there's the Sublime which acts, oddly, as seachange of realities.

By defeating the emperor while playing in a style that reflected the values of Culture, Gurgeh proves that in Azad's own paradigm, the Culture is superior to the Empire. I think the emperor simply could not accept this and would rather see his empire fall than see it overrun by the Culture's values.

I think you've nailed this. If one believes that the game is the one truth, then the culture defeating the empire in the game means that this will certainly happen.

The Emperor told Gurgeh that he had one more trick left in the game. Gurgeh had told us (the reader) that the Emperor only had two options, to attack and be absorbed or to not attack and be conquered. The Empreror's alternative was to kill everybody (and destroy the game) so that they won't become part of the Culture.

He refused to admit defeat.

The thing that I was uncertain at the end of the book was with regards to the reveal about the narrator's true identity. Was it that Mawhrin-Skel was reworked into being Flere-Imsaho after Gurgeh convinced SC to take him back OR was he always an operative who was simply sent to convince Gurgeh to play the game.

I would have leaned toward the former, but the last page makes me think the latter only because he states that had Gurgeh looked at his old casing he would have had a hint from the shape of the hole. This makes me think that the Mawhrin-Skel body was just a shell that Flere-Imsaho was wearing it just as he did the antiquated casing on Ea.

J wrote: "If one believes that the game is the one truth, then the culture defeating the empire in the game means that this will certainly happen. "

The game doesn't need to be any sort of truth. It's made clear in the text how integral to the Empire the game is. Gurgeh realizes while playing the Emperor that there is no real way to separate the game from the Empire (State from Play). One does not become the Emperor as a prize for winning the game; rather one cannot win the game without therefore being Emperor. Mastery of the game is their sine qua non. Once Gurgeh defeats the game by playing as the Culture, he has defeated the Empire.

J - the uncertainty about whether SC manipulated everything or simply took advantage of it is a hallmark of Banks Culture writing. It's one of the things I love about it.

Rick wrote: "J - the uncertainty about whether SC manipulated everything or simply took advantage of it is a hallmark of Banks Culture writing. It's one of the things I love about it."

Thanks! I like him even better knowing this.

Rick wrote: "J - the uncertainty about whether SC manipulated everything or simply took advantage of it is a hallmark of Banks Culture writing. It's one of the things I love about it."

Me too. The fact that the twist/reveal comes at literally the very end of the book is another Banks hallmark that I love.

Surface Detail. :)