The Sword and Laser discussion

So I guess HBO's latest episode showed the red wedding and now people are posting their displeasure to hbo for killing their favorite characters... lol


the link: -oh and its spoilery if you haven't read/watched it
http://www.today.com/entertainment/ga...

my favs are still alive (i'm talking about the end of ADWD)

Now E! has an exclusive interview with George about the red wedding and killing important characters.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/gam...

https://twitter.com/RedWeddingTears

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78juO...

I love the reactions. I've been reading the books after I watch the show (a habit I'm about to break because I can't wait any longer) and that episode definitely made me love/hate George R.R. Martin in a big way.

I now love/hate George R.R. Martin as much as I hate/love George Lucas.

Louise wrote: "Rob wrote: "https://twitter.com/RedWeddingTears"

:D

Oh dear.

In my head, these characters died 10 years ago. Glad the non-reading world is catching up :P"

I started on the books late and only just read that bit this morning. Glad I got to it before the internet exploded with spoilers. Then again I am not sure that 'well loved character dies in Game of Thrones' can really be considered a spoiler anymore.

There were well-loved characters at the Red Wedding?

I was way more upset about Eddard than the Red Wedding.

Just to show how committed a writer Martin is... http://www.theonion.com/articles/oh-s...

Michele wrote: "Just to show how committed a writer Martin is... http://www.theonion.com/articles/oh-s......"

Lol

Rob wrote: "I was way more upset about Eddard than the Red Wedding."

I was most upset when they killed Tyrion off like that. Eaten by lions... the irony alone.

Darren wrote: "Rob wrote: "I was way more upset about Eddard than the Red Wedding."

I was most upset when they killed Tyrion off like that. Eaten by lions... the irony alone."

was he?

Kamil wrote: "Darren wrote: I was most upset when they killed Tyrion off like that. Eaten by lions... the irony alone."

was he?"

Thrown to the lions? yes. (or well they were supposed to be after their show..but it never happens)

Eaten by them? no.

Rob wrote: "Kamil wrote: "Darren wrote: I was most upset when they killed Tyrion off like that. Eaten by lions... the irony alone."

was he?"

Thrown to the lions? yes. (or well they were supposed to be after ..."

My point was, that Tyrion was in so many certain death situations that I stopped even paying attention

I guess seven years of Buffy and the last couple of Harry Potter books kind of steeled me for these things. I still care and was surprised by a couple of deaths in GoT, but I'm not actually outraged.

While I understand people being upset I agree that it's pretty brave of an author (or show writer) to kill of loved characters. But as much as I hate it when it happens, I think it makes for a good story in the end. Only ever killing the bad guys gets predictable after a while.

Louise wrote: "This is exactly why I've neither finished the book series nor watched the TV series. I lost interest when everyone I was rooting for went and died."

Louise, same for me for the books. I decided that I would wait until the series is complete before investing my time back in the series. or watch the series to get a sneak preview to the books (i.e who is still in the TV series may be someone to invest in for the books).

I don't mind when main characters are killed if it make sense to the story, like on Game of Thrones. I was shocked when Ned died but it set the tone for the world of Westeros. This place is not safe. The good guys don't win by being good. I was shocked by the Red Wedding as well but those deaths served a purpose as well and were kind of hinted at. (view spoiler)[Catelyn said many times not to trust Walder Frey. Robb slighted him by breaking his oath. (hide spoiler)] The manner of the deaths was awful but it made sense story-wise.

What I don't like is when characters are killed just for shock value, which happens on The Walking Dead every other week. Nothing serves the story and it's all done so people talk about it the next day and people tune in to see who dies.

Apparently a lot of people weren't paying attention when Ramsay Snow said "If you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention."

Rik wrote: "Apparently a lot of people weren't paying attention when Ramsay Snow said "If you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention.""

Oh speaking of Ramsay Snow... i hope he gets eaten by his flock of dogs

A Song of Ice and Fire will have a happy ending.

It will just depend on whose Point of View you are seeing it from. ;-)

Having main characters die makes death, and also who survives, more meaningful.

Tassie Dave wrote: "A Song of Ice and Fire will have a happy ending.

It will just depend on whose Point of View you are seeing it from. ;-)

Having main characters die makes death, and also who survives, more meaning..."

but some of those deaths and surivals defy the laws of nature and probability

did you notie both Stannis and Jon, didn't have a last meal?

Kamil wrote: "did you notie both Stannis and Jon, didn't have a last meal?"

Stannis and Jon are both still alive in the show.

Warning: Spoiler for books (view spoiler)[ and more than likely both are still alive in the books as well. Though Jon might be a little sore. ;-) (hide spoiler)]

Darren wrote: "There were well-loved characters at the Red Wedding?"

My feelings exactly! When I first read the red wedding, I only felt bad about Arya who missed the only chance she got to be reunited with her family.

I never cared much about Robb and I was glad to see Catelyn dying a horrible death. She was the most annoyingly stupid character in the series. But tv series made those characters much deeper and sympathetic than they were in the novels. :/

Dara wrote: "I don't mind when main characters are killed if it make sense to the story, like on Game of Thrones. I was shocked when Ned died but it set the tone for the world of Westeros. This place is not saf..."

you may want to put the bottom portion of your statement in a spoiler tag. Even though many people have read the books and/or watched the Television show others have not and that statement is a massive massive spoiler for Book 3.

Apologies. Didn't think about it cause this is a thread discussing character deaths and the Red Wedding so I didn't tag it. I can't edit it now though via app and no computer this weekend.

Kristina wrote: "So I guess HBO's latest episode showed the red wedding and now people are posting their displeasure to hbo for killing their favorite characters... lol"

I remember when some of my non-reading friends were watching the first season of Game of Thrones and were under the impression that Ned Stark was the main character. THAT was an amusing uproar to see.

I said to them, "I'm guessing you've never read the books. Pro tip: don't get attached to anyone over 4 feet tall. Well, anyone who isn't named Tyrion."

It's the mark of a good writer that can get people to care enough about a character to get upset about their death.

killing off non favourite characters is pointless and has no emotional impact. Unless they wear a redshirt.

Trike wrote: "Kristina wrote: "So I guess HBO's latest episode showed the red wedding and now people are posting their displeasure to hbo for killing their favorite characters... lol"

I remember when some of my..."

how would you measure Bran's height?

Kamil wrote: "how would you measure Bran's height? "

Variable.

Trike wrote: "Kamil wrote: "how would you measure Bran's height? "

Variable."

hodor-high or warg-high?

I loved the Red Wedding in the books and I loved it in the TV show. Martin goes where most authors in the "gritty" genre should but don't.

Brian wrote: "I loved the Red Wedding in the books and I loved it in the TV show. Martin goes where most authors in the "gritty" genre should but don't."

You should read the Deryni Chronicles by Katherine Kurtz. She did it better, I think, and 30+ years ago, to boot. 40 years ago in some cases.

You should read the Deryni Chronicles by ..."

Thanks for the recommendation. I have added it to my (ever-increasing) list!

I understand people read books for different reasons. I have read books where authors killed characters I loved and although I hated seeing them die, I was okay with it. What I'm not okay with is every show of mercy being punished. I think that unrelenting darkness is as unrealistic as unrelenting lightness. I stopped reading the books because I felt they were harsh for the sake of harshness.

I agree with Jute, I can see the Art of it and I like the idea of no one being safe. It definitely seems more real, the problem is the unrelenting darkness, combined with the death of any favorable characters, left me just to blah to continue the books.

Maybe someday I'll be in the mood to continue reading about a world filled with people even more hopeless, selfish, deranged or dead than ours.

I'd agree with Chad about it being kind of a joy kill. I can handle enough of it on a semi regular basis but I'm not always in the mood to be holocaust level depressed when I read. Also, shit like that can work in books but when you start knocking decent actors its hard to replace them after a while- there' s not a deep bench in Hollywood for this sort of stuff.

you know G.R.R. Martin could pull out "The Jordan" ? (authors tend to do that when they don't want to finish a series)

Jute wrote: "I understand people read books for different reasons. I have read books where authors killed characters I loved and although I hated seeing them die, I was okay with it. What I'm not okay with is every show of mercy being punished. I think that unrelenting darkness is as unrealistic as unrelenting lightness..."

That's a perfectly valid position, though I differ inasmuch as, while it's fashionable right now to smack George R. R. Martin for being terribly ruthless, I don't think he has killed a single major character in my reading so far who didn't pretty much deserve it. In the Red Wedding particularly, for instance, I think everyone who got whacked pretty much needed to get whacked.

I would contrast this with Joss Whedon, who I think crosses the line way too often, killing characters off just to manipulate the audience and sneer at them ("see, see what I did to your beloved character? Cause I *can*, so THERE! Nyah!") Just finished Cabin in the Woods, and I found the irony between his professed reasons for the film ("Oh I hate me that torture porn") and his own history ("I bet they'll cry if I wax such-and-such...") to be fairly hypocritical.

I agree with you about Whedon. He does it because he can - not because it serves the story. Mostly.

I know that for myself, my reaction to the Red Wedding was first shock, and then gradually, a realization of all the things that led to it. It makes it an easier pill to swallow. When you can plot the character's path to their demise, it makes it a full and satisfying story.

However, that doesn't stop me from reacting completely crazy. I threw down the 5th Harry Potter book when my favorite character at the time died and didn't realize until years later that I had never actually finished the book...I had rage-quit the book. :/

Trike wrote: "Brian wrote: "I loved the Red Wedding in the books and I loved it in the TV show. Martin goes where most authors in the "gritty" genre should but don't."

You should read the Deryni Chronicles by ..."

Person after my own heart.

RIP Wash.

Dara wrote: "I agree with you about Whedon. He does it because he can - not because it serves the story. Mostly."

He also does it in order to instill the idea that anyone can die, so you never get comfortable and assume the characters will all be hunky-dory. I do think he does it too much, but it's a valid gambit.

After things went down on GoT it was like my campus was haunted. People were legitimately zombified as they tried to understand what had happened. I read the books years ago, so I knew it was coming, but I remember being shocked during my read through, and I can understand where they were coming from.

Personally, I like it when shows kill characters, and it has only happened once or twice when I disagreed with the decision. With GoT it should be expected, especially after season 1, but still, I think some people were ruined when it happened.

Jacob wrote: "After things went down on GoT it was like my campus was haunted. People were legitimately zombified as they tried to understand what had happened. I read the books years ago, so I knew it was comin..."

It's weird to go back and read the books again when X character actually lives to Book 5 but dies in the second season of the show.

I will probably go watch some more youtube vids of people reacting to the RW. Man, were those ever funny. LOTS of rage-quitting.

People keep saying that Whedon kills off favorite characters? Huh?

I can only think of three important, non bad guy, characters in Buffy that he killed off (someone like Jenny Calendar was not important and Angel doesn't count since his death lasted all of two or three episodes). One was Joyce but that was a great death because of how it moved the story for the remaining seasons. Next was Tara which is probably where most of the angst comes from but I have a sneaking suspicion that if she'd been hetero dating Xander no one would have cared. Lastly there was Anya but that was in the finale and doesn't really count because someone always dies in the finales of most shows.

On to Angel. They killed Doyle but that was largely forced on them because the actor's drug problems were getting in the way of the show. The actor later died in real life of a drug overdose which shows this was a real problem. No one else of note died until Cordelia unless you count Darla but she was never a regular and her death was epic and necessary. Fred sorta died though I think if there had been a seasons six (not the comic) that we would have seen Illyria become more Fredlike. Then of course the finale where Wesley dies but again if its the finale it hardly counts since someone always dies.

Firefly / Serenity - Book and Wash die in the movie / finale. Again doesn't count because as I keep saying, its a TV trope that someone dies in the finale.

Avengers - Coulsen's death has been retconned. I never had understood the love for him anyway. Oh I'll be watching Agents of Shield but I still don't get it.

What Rik said.

Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill

I think deaths of beloved characters make for much more interesting reading/viewing.