The Next Best Book Club discussion

May I say that perhaps we're all taking this just a tad too seriously? Just read, already, I don't care if you read porn, at least you are reading something. YA counts, chick-lit counts, and the Holy Bible counts. Enough already.

Laura wrote: "May I say that perhaps we're all taking this just a tad too seriously? Just read, already, I don't care if you read porn, at least you are reading something. YA counts, chick-lit counts, and the ..."

I'm going to tell my mommy the lady on GR told me I could read porn!

...just kidding L ;) I back you 100%.

Laura wrote: "May I say that perhaps we're all taking this just a tad too seriously? Just read, already, I don't care if you read porn, at least you are reading something. YA counts, chick-lit counts, and the ..."

I agree completely.

Haha, the fact that there are points involved means everyone takes the challenges even a little bit seriously.

There will always be disagreements when it comes to reading material. Everyone should be secure enough in what they read to be able to defend what they read without taking offense immediately. So far every die-hard YA reader I have come across on Goodreads has not been able to defend their reasoning backing YA other than to basically say it's "easy" or "happy". If there was more substance to the books or the arguments we might be able to find a common ground.

And I'm pretty sure at least a few people in this group would take offense to someone reading porn for any of the challenges. :)

Why should someone have to defend what they read???

I'm trying to be nice, I'm trying so hard to be nice.

*Looks up to the Great TNBBC God in the Sky*

I could argue and defend the point that YA books do have substance all day, but we're supposed to be having fun here.

And they DO have substance, they most certainly do. I am sure not all of them do, as not all "adult" literature does. I hate books about shopping, and purses (as much as I hate shopping and purses), but that does not give me the right to call those kinds of books non-substantive. It ONLY gives me the right to NOT READ THEM.

We have worn out this argument all over the place, my biggest problem with your post El, is that you first say "everyone should be secure with what they read, we are all different" and then you pull a 180 and say that YA is shallow (which is basically what 'easy' and 'happy' mean). I'm not sure how you feel comfortable making such a ridiculous blanket statement about all of YA...kinda silly I think. There are so many great YA classics like To Kill a Mockingbird that I think would hold much more substance then a pink book describing a girl with 5 boyfriends and 500 pairs of shoes.

Again, I agree completely.

Laura, I don't think anyone is saying you don't have the right to read anything you want. What is being said here is that the Challenges are a competition and that everyone should have a level playing field. By definition, reading YA is playing on a different (younger) field. And, I will agree with you entirely that chick-lit, romances, and many mysteries, for example, are also much lighter fare.

We appear to be going around in circles. You read what you want to read, let everyone else read what they want to read. Every person in a group should be able to take part in a GROUP challenge, regardless of their choice of genre or their age.

I disagree with you, Elizabeth, and I respect your intelligence, and El's intelligence, but what you are saying is your opinion, and is just that - an opinion. It is not factual. We all have to respect each other's differences on this.

Allison wrote: "We have worn out this argument all over the place, my biggest problem with your post El, is that you first say "everyone should be secure with what they read, we are all different" and then you pul..."

To Kill a Mockingbird is not YA, as it was not written for young adults. There are many classics, Tom Sawyer being another, that are entirely suitable for younger readers, but they were not written for Young Adults. In fact, the term Young Adults is a fairly recent term, perhaps being around only about 20 years.

right Fiona! That is the problem really. No one has the right to tell anyone what they should read. If you want to compete in a book challenge based on quantity and read Les Miz while someone else reads Harry Potter...you are both reading great books, the point is that we're READING. Who really cares who wins as long as everyone challenges themselves and has fun with it?

Amen!

Laura wrote: "I disagree with you, Elizabeth, and I respect your intelligence, and El's intelligence, but what you are saying is your opinion, and is just that - an opinion. It is not factual. We all have to r..."

Which part of YA being written for Young Adults and therefore different than that written for Adults is not factual?

let's go and read something....

I think she was disagreeing with the level playing field. It is supposed to be a challenge - who are we to say that something isn't challenging for another person?

While To Kill a Mockingbird may have been relegated to YA sections in recent times, it was actually written as adult literature of the Southern Gothic persuasion...and, in fact, won the Pulitzer for Fiction. The Yearling is another book that was written for adults, won the Pulitzer, and was later relegated to YA.

There is usually a great trend of coming-of-age stories ending up being labeled as YA even if they were not intended as such.

Allison wrote: "We have worn out this argument all over the place, my biggest problem with your post El, is that you first say "everyone should be secure with what they read, we are all different" and then you pul..."

Allison, there is no 180 here. I specifically said that the only description I have been able to receive from YA readers is that it is "easy". Those are not my words, but those of YA readers, so again, please do not blame me for trying to understand where other people are coming from. If someone tells me they only want to read "easy" books then absolutely I will question it.

As far as defense of books, I feel anyone should be able to defend anything they believe in or enjoy. I'm not attacking anyone's personal choices, but if I ask specific questions to help me understand, then I should not be "penalized" for that. I find it hard to take anyone seriously if they can not express reasonably to me their own opinions. So far with this discussion everyone has just accused me of attacking them which is not the case, so being on the defensive isn't really appropriate.

If one can not pick and choose what's considered YA or not, then why do most people list on their profile on Goodreads that they enjoy reading YA books, or why would people label their own shelves as "YA"? Why are there YA shelves at the store or in the library? I believe it is quite easy to determine what is considered Young Adult.

Chick-lit (while I also don't find it interesting to read) is geared towards adults, as is James Patterson and many of the other "easy reads" that have been mentioned so far in this discussion. I am not disagreeing with those, I am merely trying to make sense of YA books as used in a challenge. Good gracious. I am not telling anyone what to read.

In a forum like this there will be disagreements as I have already stated. There is no point in getting defensive about it. Have a discussion, but there's no point in feeling attacked or attacking in return.

Oh...thought I'd add that The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time is primarily shelved in the General Adult Fiction sections here in the U.S. Didn't realize it was considered YA in Great Britain. Interesting...

I remember seeing that The Book Thief was marketed/shelved as General Adult Fiction in Australia, but as YA in most other countries. Not sure why there are often discrepancies like these...?

El. People are getting defensive because you asked for YA to be excluded from the challenge.

The majority of books I see making a "crossover" from General Adult to YA (meaning they are now typically found in BOTH sections) are classics. Books such as:

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn/The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (as Elizabeth pointed out)
Little Women
Oliver Twist
Treasure Island
Kidnapped
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

etc. etc.

Usually, the quickest books to cross over are books that have younger protagonists and/or are of the adventure/fantasy persuasion.

Thanks, Charity. This backs up what Fiona said about it not being as easy to distinguish what is/isn't YA.

Then reasonably explain to me why it should not be "excluded". I reasonably explained why some people have issues with YA books being included as the primary selection of books for an adult-based challenge, so if someone wants to return the favor then I'm all ears.

All I ask is that you try to see it from the point of view of other people who are interested in reading for challenges and are interested primarily in the challenge aspect of it. If you look at it through someone else's eyes you might see that it looks like many prefer taking the easy way out (and some flat out say that), so explain to me reasonably how that is fair to those who wish not to take the easy way out?

This may sound like a dumb question, but if there's no prize to be awarded at the end of the Challenge, then who the heck cares who wins?

A lot of those books have abridgements which are generally placed with YA books in bookstores and libraries, while the unabridged often stay in the adult sections. Different publishers also make a difference as Puffin editions most often go to YA as they are the children/YA publisher version of Penguin.

Laura wrote: "This may sound like a dumb question, but if there's no prize to be awarded at the end of the Challenge, then who the heck cares who wins?

"


So if the person reading the YA stuff because it is easy and can, therefore, win the challenge, why? Is it not the same question from the other angle?

El. We've explained over and over again and quite frankly I'm sick of repeating myself.

People should not be excluded from a challenge because they read what you deem to be 'easy' reads. They should not be excluded because of their age. People are free to read what they want to read, and should be allowed to participate in a GROUP (because don't forget this is a group) challenge, regardless of their choice of book.

It's your choice if you want to read challenging reads, just as it is their choice if they want to read something easier. The point of a challenge is to challenge yourself, therefore if they are not challenging themselves, they have their own conscience to answer to. Why you feel that you have the right to try to exclude the people who read YA from the challenge is truly beyond me.

Kirsty wrote: "El. We've explained over and over again and quite frankly I'm sick of repeating myself.

People should not be excluded from a challenge because they read what you deem to be 'easy' reads. They sh..."


Yes, this is an adult group. One would reasonably expect adult readers (and reading).

As your humble moderator, I feel the need to ask you a few questions.
Are you currently saving money like its going out of style or expecting to kiss all your spare cash goodbye?
Are you strong of will, or weak of heart?
Are your bookshelves quite bare and dusty, or currently a little tight of space?

Joining this group is highly addictive. In a matter of weeks, your TBR list will be longer than you are tall, you will be wondering how the heck you walked into a bookstore for one little book, and walked out with two bags crammed full of new novels you never knew you wanted. Your bookshelves will be bursting at the seams and you wont remember what color the rug was as it will be buried under all the new purchases you have made!

We are not here to hold you back, or pat your hand as you try to be strong and cut back on your purchases. We will be rallying behind you, chanting your name as you enter the bookstore, and we will throw a book-party in your honor when you come back and share all the wonderful new books youve adopted with us!


Tell me where that says this is an adult group? This is a group for people who love books (ANY books).

Kirsty wrote: "As your humble moderator, I feel the need to ask you a few questions.
Are you currently saving money like its going out of style or expecting to kiss all your spare cash goodbye?
Are you strong..."


I stand corrected. I thought I read this was a book club for adults. I guess I'm wrong and that it isn't for adults.

Damned, it is an adult group....now we can have a discusion about when you are concidered adult....

Break it up, break it up....nothin' more to see here....

*passes out books*

Jeane wrote: "Damned, it is an adult group....now we can have a discusion about when you are concidered adult....

"


LMAO!

Laura wrote: "Break it up, break it up....nothin' more to see here....

*passes out books*"

thanks for the book! Laura....where are the classics? I got a stefanie plum!!!!

*passes out more books*

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Kirsty wrote: "As your humble moderator, I feel the need to ask you a few questions.
Are you currently saving money like its going out of style or expecting to kiss all your spare cash goodbye?
..."

we're still adults! Reading YA doesn't make us simple minded :)

This is a FUN place! No one should be excluded from anything based on what they read. Reading is about enjoying and learning...and obviously there are still lessons to learn in YA books. I don't read them because they are "simple." I don't see them that way at all. They just explore stories and themes that I enjoy. I like being able to avoid a ton of sex/graphic violence/etc. and I know if I pick up a YA book chances are good.

Is there a book in between which teaches me how to stay serious and stop laughing?

Allison wrote: This is a FUN place! No one should be excluded from anything based on what they read. Reading is about enjoying and learning...and obviously there are still lessons to learn in YA books

Amen! (again)

I, personally, choose to read more general adult fiction and nonfiction, as opposed to YA books (For the purposes of this post, I will be using the term "YA" to apply to books that were written expressly for younger readers). I am NOT against YA books. In the past year, I read:

Summerland by Michael Chabon (who primarily writes adult lit) - which is a YA fantasy book and I thought was quite good and well-written. (500 pages)

The Book Thief by Markus Zusak - which, I admit, was better than I thought it would be...and I must say, I'm a little surprised that this one is marketed as YA in most countries. (500+ pages)

Heidi by Johanna Spyri - sorry to say, but I didn't enjoy reading this much as an adult. (300 pages)

However, my personal preference is to read adult fiction. I do not feel that I connect as much with YA books as I do with adult books. And please don't tar and feather me, but I don't find the majority of YA books to be challenging for me.

But, perhaps the biggest reason that I prefer adult fiction/nonfiction is because I am a stay-at-home-mom of 2 small kids...and sometimes a burned-out one, at that. I read books written for kids all day, every day. I watch kids' shows all day, every day. I play kids' activities all day, every day. (Well, all day...until they go to bed!) Therefore, when I read for pleasure, I want to escape FROM ALL THINGS FOR CHILDREN. :-)

I gotcha on that one! Just hearing the name "Barney" gives me nightmares and flashbacks. SO disturbing.

Charity, that's cool, and you hit the nail on the head by saying it's not challenging for you.

Kirsty wrote: "Charity, that's cool, and you hit the nail on the head by saying it's not challenging for you.
"

yeah, your post is very well written, no tars and feathers for you dearie.

I'm not sure I would use the word challenging for YA either...but that just doesn't bother me personally. The word I would use is ENGAGING. They are interesting to me and even if the characters are 10 years younger then me, I enjoy reading their stories.

I have no kids and do NOT watch Barney however, so I definitely understand you being ready for a change. Glad you liked Book Thief!

El wrote: "A lot of those books have abridgements which are generally placed with YA books in bookstores and libraries, while the unabridged often stay in the adult sections. Different publishers also make a difference as Puffin editions most often go to YA as they are the children/YA publisher version of Penguin."

Oh, yes. I realize that. I, myself, used to devour the Great Illustrated Classics (abridgments) as well as, the Puffin editions when I was a child. They really made me love the stories and pushed me into wanting to tackle the classics as an adult. Of course, having read the true, unabridged versions as an adult, I must say that I enjoyed them much more as an adult. The themes were clearer. The characters and situations were more relatable to my life as an adult (even if the protagonist was a child). And I really think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that these books were written primarily for adults. I'm not saying that children can't love and appreciate them. I'm just saying that sometimes life experiences can really shed a lot of light onto one's reading experiences.

I have an idea:

Idea Part 1- I'll read what I like, and promise not to dictate any other person's reading material, as it ultimately has no bearing whatsoever on me.
Idea Part 2- Others can read what they like, and they in turn promise not to dictate mine, for the same reason.

As far as whether books are written as YA or not, I don't see that it matters. But to alleviate confusion, I recommend we all sign a petition formally requesting authors to clearly list their intended audience on the cover of their books. Of course, some authors have already passed on, so for those, we will skip the petition and instead have a seance to make sure that we get the author's intention straight from the source.

Seriously though, this is a ridiculous argument. I read YA because I like YA. I need no other justification or "defense" for this choice. Nor do readers of any other kind of book.

Becky wrote: "I have an idea:

Idea Part 1- I'll read what I like, and promise not to dictate any other person's reading material, as it ultimately has no bearing whatsoever on me.
Idea Part 2- Others can r..."

Exactly. I hope we can end this here. I think that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm now going to log off as it's getting late here (I'm in England) and I have to work tomorrow.

Allison,

A lot of times I do feel that YA books are engaging, but not challenging. For example:

A few years ago when I was working at Half Price Books, someone came in and sold a ton of Judy Blume books. I grabbed several that I LOVED as a preteen/teen girl and took them home to reminisce over (the bookstore would let employees borrow books/movies/CDs, etc. and we would either bring them back or buy them). I managed to tear through those books relatively quickly, reading maybe 4-5 a day....even Just As Long As We're Together, which I had thought was sooooo HUGE (big/fat) when I had read it as a child. Now, they were all engaging (I still loved the stories), but they just weren't challenging anymore (I didn't have to think much about what I was reading). I loved the nostalgia of reading them, but when I was done, I was in the mood for something a lot denser.


That being said, I just want to say that I don't care what anyone else reads. If it gives you pleasure, have at it! As long as people don't gripe about what I'm reading or call me a 'book snob' or something because my reading preferences aren't like theirs, then I don't have a problem having an open dialogue with people about books. (No one has said this to me on this site as far as I know, by the way.)

I read what I read because I like it. At least, I like it now. Tomorrow, I might be on to something else. I reserve the right to change my interests....and I do...frequently. For instance, in the past, I wasn't much of a genre reader, save for chick lit. Other genres just didn't appeal to me. However, now, I'm finding the opposite to be true. I've more or less outgrown the chick lit genre (or maybe just burned out on it) and instead, I'm dabbling in other genres (sci-fi, fantasy, mystery, horror, etc.) that I never found all that appealing before.

Bottom line is: reading is personal. And it should be pleasurable as well. If it's not, then what's the point? We wouldn't be on this site, right? :-) Even if we can't always agree on our favorite reading material, there may just be some common ground on our bookshelves.

Why must we fight?
Why cant we state our opinion once, and let bygones be bygones?
So what if someone doesnt agree with your opinion. Let it go!

Who the hell ever said this was a group for ADULTS ONLY? I am the friggen MODERATOR for crying out loud! I don't think I need members to tell me what age group this forum is for!

YA seems to be such a touchy topic here. Would you like me to ban all challenges? I can do that. Would you like me to stop the group reads? I can do that too? Would you like me to delete this group and ban everyone so that no one can enjoy themselves here?

I'm just getting tired of the pointless bickering. And I know most of you here are getting tired of it too. I dont want to be the thread nazi, but if that's what we need, just let me know!

Geesh.... cant we see how silly we are all being?

END RANT

can we have peace and happiness back now?
please?