The F-word discussion

Inga wrote: "Mal wrote: "Shaun wrote: "As a side note, not all 'boys' grow up."

Excellent post Shaun. I agree with both comments post.

I wouldn't say women are immune to corruption but men are more likely to..."


Hi Inga. You might want to read The Male Brain and The Female Brain

Mal wrote: "Inga wrote: "Mal wrote: "Shaun wrote: "As a side note, not all 'boys' grow up."

Excellent post Shaun. I agree with both comments post.

I wouldn't say women are immune to corruption but men are m..."

Hi mal,
I will check those out, but I am pretty convinced that the brain has nothing to do with it. but thanks for the tipp.

The complicated thing about scientific studies is that for every study producing one result there is always a study that claims the opposite. I guess we´ll never really know. It´s up to us who we find more reliable and believable.

Inga wrote: "The complicated thing about scientific studies is that for every study producing one result there is always a study that claims the opposite. I guess we´ll never really know. It´s up to us who we f..."

I can understand a certain predisposition (a la genes) for either sex to do certain things, but when you list the characteristics out like that it feels like cultural, societal conditioning.

My studies were in child development and those didn't show predominant tendencies in childhood for any particular sex. Bleh, that was almost ten years ago, though so couldn't find the research even if I wanted to. :)

Inga wrote: "Mal wrote: "Shaun wrote: "As a side note, not all 'boys' grow up."

Excellent post Shaun. I agree with both comments post.

I wouldn't say women are immune to corruption but men are more likely to..."

Inga,
yes, this is exactly what I've come across in my reading and studying over the years, thank you for sharing and providing a source, since I can't find any.

I'd also like to add that I've read, some time ago, quite an interesting book on how biologists and other scientists have, sometimes unaware, done misinterpretations (based on their gender bias) of data and wrongly come up with conclusions that support an idea in difference of character between the sexes of several species (including humans). I will try to find the book and reference it here :)

deleted user wrote: "Does a feminist pay her own way on a date? Does a feminist ask the man out? Your thoughts? Gentlemen feel free to chime in."

First of all: this question should probably read, "Does a feminist woman..." The assumption that all feminists are women is not accurate.

Does a (straight) feminist woman ask a man she's interested in out? Sure; why wouldn't she? Honestly, if a man is turned off by being asked out by a woman, that's probably not a man she's going to have a productive relationship with.

Does a feminist woman pay her own way on a date? That depends. If she asked the guy for the date, she might be expected to pay--some people think it's rude to invite someone out and ask them to pay their share. I've had relationships where both people take turns treating--so one person will get the check, and the other person will say something like, "I'll get the next one."

Again: if a feminist woman is on a date with a man who is actively offended with her offering to pay her way, or his way for that matter, that's probably a red flag right there.

I'm not offended by the label Women's Fiction and I prefer it to the term Chicklit. I read many books that don't fit into this category despite having a female protagonist, so I see this as a unique genre that specifically caters to the female reader. Of course these books aren't for all women and there isn't just one type of female reader. Nonetheless, I know what to expect when I opt for chicklit/women's fiction and it would be difficult to find if these books were simply lumped together with all other fiction books.

Here's a personal question!
What do you guys think about changing your last name to your husband's name when you get married? Also, do you see anything wrong with the term "man and wife"? I've been thinking a lot about the tradition of changing your name after reading Valenti's book on double standards--she brings up a good point about how it's another way for men to "own" their wives. It strikes me as weird that everyone I've asked has never really thought about it--they've all said "Of course I'll change my name. I mean, unless I really, really don't like his name."
On the surface, this tradition seems pretty harmless, and extremely commonplace, so why should feminists even get worked up about it, right? But the more I think about it, the more I realize it's another sexist part of our culture we thoughtlessly perpetuate.
On a related note, what do yall think about using Mrs., Miss, and Ms.? Do you think a woman should reveal her marital status in her *name* while men get the unchanging term "Mr."?
Just things I've been thinking about.

I changed my name because I like my husband's name and my maiden name was "Jones," very blah. And since our maiden names (and THAT'S not a loaded term either [eyeroll]) are our father's names anyway, it's just a choice of which man's name you've got, unless you want to go all MZB and start using the Renunciate naming convention. Which a woman I knew did, back in the 80s.

I don't see a problem with it, so long as it's the woman's choice. Heck, the man can take the woman's name too, although I've never known anyone who did.

I started out using "Ms." but then started checking the "Mrs." box on surveys and such, because my views tend to skew liberal [cough] and I thought it might shake things up among the clearly-conservative poll writers in a few cases to see a Mrs. who, say, supports gay marriage or abortion rights or whatever they were push-polling that day. :)

And really, if you look back at the origins of the terms, "Miss," "Mrs." and "Ms." are all abreviations for "Mistress" anyway, so they all point back to the same thing. "Mistress" meaning female person in charge, like the mistress of a house; a mistress being a man's kept woman came later.

Oh, and at a lot of weddings now, they say "husband and wife," which I like much better. It seems to be catching on.

Angie

Angela wrote: "I changed my name because I like my husband's name and my maiden name was "Jones," very blah. And since our maiden names (and THAT'S not a loaded term either [eyeroll]) are our father's names anyw..."
Cool! thanks for replying. I decided a while ago that I will only change my name if I like my husband's last name better than mine (but I do like my name now, so I doubt I'll change it). I've never thought about the fact that my last name is really my dad's, so either way I'm getting a man's name without choice. Interesting.
Actually, a man can change his last name to his wife's, but it's a LOT harder. He has to go through cumbersome files and pay considerable fees that a woman does not have to pay--basically, the government wants to make it difficult for a man to do it, and easy for a woman to. Also, with today's male norms about being "the head of the house" and the breadwinner and what not, it's pretty rare to find a guy who wants to be Mr. [Insert wife's name], ya know?

I have a few friends who have taken their wives last names, and it's true that it's way harder. When I got married I wanted to keep my name, but thought about hyphenating it as an option. In Canada, if I wanted to just change my name to my husbands last name I could, easily, and for free. To hyphenate I had to apply for a name change, endure a criminal record check, fingerprinting, and pay like $200+ dollars. So I just kept my name. Good thing too, a few years later we were divorced haha. It really should run both ways, if you marry and become a "unit" either name should be adoptable by the other party with the same amount of ease.

My wife didn't change her name; we didn't see any reason for her to. I think that's getting to be less common, at least among certain social classes. Sometimes we get people (telemarketers, mostly) who call her Mrs. Mylastname or me Mr. Herlastname, and we don't usually bother to correct them. It's just not a big deal.

And I always use "Ms.", especially in business. The "Miss or Mrs." distinction comes from a time when the only thing you needed to know about a woman was who, if anyone, they were married to. It'd be weird for me to have to check with someone to see if they were married or not before sending them a business letter.

I have friends who made up their own last name when they got married and replaced their own with it. They wanted the same last name but didn't want to use either of theirs.

I'm not changing mine if I ever marry for practical reasons. I've got a dual citizenship and it would be just too much of a bother to make the change in two countries and all the legal documents that would involve.

I always use Ms. too.

Cool! Thanks for all the input.

Personally I love the practice of two people merging their two pre-marriage names into a new name, for their new family - although it truly stinks that's it's such a hassle. In the end though, I don't really care what two adults choose. What really really disturbs me though, is that in those cases where both folks keep their original names, almost always, always, always, the kids end up with the father's name. That strikes me as far more damaging to the long-term chances of true equality.

Speaking as a (potentially) enraged woman, I carried those children for nine months in MY body, I gave birth to them in pain and blood (and yes, lots of joyful WORK) and then I continued to nourish them with my body for many months more! Yes, by ... they're going to have MY name!

I fully agree with kids taking their mother's name when possible. It's funny to think that the father's name gets passed on to them by default a lot of the time. And Alexa, are you really enraged, or getting engaged? Haha

I'm against marriage in the first place, ha! I just can't reconcile the idea with my feminism.

I actually made a long list the other day of reasons why NOT to get married, so that I would have some quickly in mind whenever people asked me when I was getting married or just automatically assumed that I was going to.

This name change thing is just one of the inherently sexist things about marriage for me.

I think the child taking the mother's name is sweet. In certain circumstances it can seem really unfair that the child carries on the father's name and not the mother's.
And maybe when I get married (not a possibility for at least five more years) it'll be easier for couples to choose a new name to start their family with. That's a great idea.

Carrie, I'm sorry that happened to you. I particularly want a unique last name because my first name is so common.
Now that you mention it, it also annoys me that if a couple were to get divorced the woman has to go through the hassle of changing her name YET again or live with her ex-husband's name, which would suck.

Alexa wrote: "I carried those children for nine months in MY body, I gave birth to them in pain and blood (and yes, lots of joyful WORK) and then I continued to nourish them with my body for many months more! Yes, by ... they're going to have MY name!"

And here in the UK, women have only just won the right to have their name on their child's marriage certificate. If a single mother did all the work raising her child, then legally only an absent father's name could be registered on the child's marriage certificate.

I don't have much to add, but I want to say I've loved reading all of this.