Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Everyman wrote: "What is a myth? How (if at all) does it differ from legends, fables, and stories?

The OED defines a myth as:
a. A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces, which embo..."

I really am liking the Vandiver definition, particularly in that a myth expresses a society's "world-view".

I also appreciate Everyman's distinguishing of "myth" from "story", but I would offer that North America (or at least the United States) does, in fact, have its own myth (albeit one without an explicit deity).
Specifically, I would content that what we call "the American Dream" fits nicely within the Vandiver definition of myth. Regardless of whether it is "true" or "attainable" in 21st century America, it is one of the things that firmly expresses the world-view and belief structure of those within (and even many outside of) the country.

I'm not American, but I feel that the "American Dream" fits more into the category of meme rather than myth - it's (I believe) a rags-to-riches or a "winning against all the odds" theme which appears repeatedly throughout many cultures. You're right, Kyle, it does fit in with the Vandiver definition given above, but for me the sticking point is lack of gods, heroes or strange beasties.

Kyle wrote: "Everyman wrote: "What is a myth? How (if at all) does it differ from legends, fables, and stories?

The OED defines a myth as:
a. A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or f..."

The American Dream may have mythical value in a sense, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a "traditional story." There are a number of stories which seem to exemplify the American Dream, such as the story of the Pilgrims, and the poem on the Statute of Liberty, but are any of those really stories that are told around the hearth at a communal gathering or by the bards, or passed down in story form from generation to generation?

It's an interesting idea, though, to call it an American myth.

Everyman wrote: "Kyle wrote: "Everyman wrote: "What is a myth? How (if at all) does it differ from legends, fables, and stories?

The OED defines a myth as:
a. A traditional story, typically involving supernatura..."

If we're willing to translate our definition of myth by allowing that the "bards" of the 21st century may just be the middle school guidance counselors as well as the typical Hollywood screenplays, then I still land on the idea of the American Dream as the great American myth.

....although my ensuing interaction with Ovid may just prove me wrong.

Patrice wrote: "Pip, I'm curious, what is the British myth of origin?

I've been thinking about the Romans and how diverse their population was. Maybe that's why Augustus felt they needed an origin myth. An an..."

I'll answer your last question first and say that many many people living in the British Isles STILL don't feel British! It's a very politically loaded topic, especially with the Scottish referendum coming up next year.

We have a very messy history and although a lot of Scots and Irish or Welsh and Celts may be able to put forward a set of regional myths, the English are a truly mongrel group. Maybe because the Ancient Britons, the Celts, Romans, Vikings, Normans, Angles, Saxons and possibly Jutes (to name the largest waves) intermixed to such an extent, the English missed out on our own set of myths. And maybe, as I mentioned earlier, this is why Tolkein felt the need to create one.

I'm going to go out on a very shaky limb (I haven't been able to read the Metamorphoses, so you'll have to correct me if I'm very very shaky!) and say that I think the myths Ovid wrote about had long been in existence, borrowed from the Greeks at least, and were already part of the Roman cultural-religious identity. I think Virgil's Aeneid was probably stronger along "what does it mean to be Roman?" lines as it deals with the foundation of the city. I haven't read that either (ho ho!) so I'm really sticking my neck out here.

Guillotine, anyone?!

Pip wrote: "We have a very messy history and although a lot of Scots and Irish or Welsh and Celts may be able to put forward a set of regional myths, the English are a truly mongrel group.."

There are a few cultures that say their race is autochothonous -- that they emerged directly from the earth -- the ancient Athenians claimed this, and I've heard this in some native American mythologies as well. I suppose this is one way of creating a cultural identity, one based purely on origin. It really is a myth though, since no race or culture is that neatly defined. Even a culture's mythology changes over time, variants on the stories appear, and the gods and heroes morph. Maybe this is one of the things Ovid is pointing out to us in his poem?