SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

We don't have a rule against authors nominating their own books in this group as long as it fits the theme. In order to make the poll it needs to get a 'legitimate' second, and in order to be a group read it needs to win the poll.

I'm not a writer nor do I aspire to be one. I've been sent a few books and requests to review, but haven't had any negative experiences with authors on GR.

I made the mistake of suggesting that an author nominate his book and the reaction has been fierce. I've apologised to both the authors of the book in question and the group in general.

He nominated his book in good faith at my suggestion and I ask that you don't assume his motives were anything but pure.

The back story for those who weren't following the nomination thread:

I received an email from J. Gabriel Gates informing me that in celebration of the release of the third book in his series the first one would be free on Amazon until 1 July. When I looked at the book I noticed that it had two authors listed and suggested that he nominate it for our August Fantasy Collaboration read.

I'm so embarrassed that I put this author (who I don't know for the record) in this position. I know that many groups don't allow authors to nominate their own books which is probably because members don't like it when they do. (I'd also guess it has to do with authors getting their friends to join the group and vote for their book so it wins and more people buy and read it.) I should have thought this through better before making the suggestion to J.

I've explained and apologised to the best of my ability. I'm very eager to know why everyone reacted as strongly as they did and if perhaps Kim and I should consider changing our minds about allowing author nominations. I'd really appreciate your thoughts and experience on this!

It was the policy of previous mods, a policy I continue, that authors can nominate their own work for the monthly read as long as they state it is their own work, it fits the theme, and they agree to answer member questions about their book/join the discussions.

It is still subject to the process all other nominations go through, ie. must be seconded and it must win the most votes. No author nominated work has ever been a group read, I don't believe one has even made it to the poll stage.

We've not really had any reaction from members in the past mainly due to the fact it's never been an issue. We tend to crack down heavily on spam here, and I'm not really a fan of the author section at all, but if an author follows the correct procedures, and is willing to be an active participant and not spammy, then I believe they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

As long as the authors state clear that they nominate their own work, I do not see a problem with it.

I also point out that there is kind of a cancelling effect. If all authors nominate their own works, it is the same as if no authors nominate their own works. You need more than your one nomination to get it going.

All this logrolling and campaigning takes valuable time away from writing, you know.

As a mod in another group, I can tell you that you will have authors join for the explicit purpose of nominating their own book. Think about all the posts that occur daily in the "self-promotions" thread.

It also bothers me that many authors are deceptive about it on GR in general. One group specifically closes membership during nominations for that reason. Just last month in a group I mod, I had an author have his sister nominate it.

There's also the larger risk of becoming Amazon's shill. Look it's free! Lets make it a monthly read! is the way people are lured in. Would you read it if it wasn't free?

I don't see the problem, because the decision is still ours. I just feel kind of sorry for you and the author, people should have checked whether it's allowed and then either stayed quiet or if it really bothered them they could have given their critique about the rule straight to the mods.

Carol this group has been running since 2008 and has allowed this policy for at least 3 years. Yet in that time I could count on two hands the amount of times we've had an author nominate their own work, or have someone else nominate it. I just don't see it as a problem

Also if the group votes for a book to be the monthly read just because it's free on Amazon then I won't stop it, that is why we have the polls. For the members to decide what they want to read. We only rarely skip the poll process and directly make a book a group read and that is only when we are making changes and the books are carefully selected.

The policy has been the same since I first joined the group and we've never had issues with authors and sockpuppets stealing polls.

As long as the book fits the theme and has gone through the regular process, I don't see a problem.

I had a book of mine nominated as one of the books of the month on the UK Amazon Kindle Forum. On that forum there is a group of members who somehow come up with the books. They seem to mix new stuff with classics across a variety of genre.
Looking at it from a writers point of view, I'm also a reader.I'd hate to be part of a group that adopts the attitude you get across on Amazon.com when all authors are restricted into the 'Meet our Authors' forum and they can get flamed if they post in another forum, even if they're not promoting their work or even discussing a genre they don't write in.

Having a section for authors to promote is fine. From the author's point of view to be honest it probably has damn all effect on sales.
Authors spamming other parts of the group, just delete the posts and kick them off, certainly if they are a repeat offender.
Authors mentioning their books when they are relevant in a thread? Tricky one. I just don't do it, because some people do get upset and I'm not here to upset people, I'm here to take part in discussions etc.

Just wanted to add that there's no need to apologize, Penny. You didn't do anything wrong here.

Also, I don't like the author folder either. It really doesn't do much and is just a waste of space.

Brenda wrote: "All this logrolling and campaigning takes valuable time away from writing, you know."

Heh! Good point Brenda :)

Carol I can only reiterate Kim's comment although his means more since he's been a mod here much longer than I have. Last month an author nominated his own book for the detective theme because it fit with the theme and there was no outrage at that.

Thanks SSirppi, I've told the author how sorry I am a number of times, but I had no idea that people would respond the way they did!

Ala wrote: "Just wanted to add that there's no need to apologize, Penny. You didn't do anything wrong here."

Thanks Ala! :) I do still feel bad that I let poor unsuspecting J. get negative comments when it wasn't even his idea.

I think the Author's section is one of the reasons we don't have a lot of random threads promoting new books all over the group, so I do like it from that point of view. I've also always thought it could be a place where fantasy and scifi authors could support one another though I'm not sure that happens much.

Penny and Kim, I'm glad to hear it isn't a problem for you. You asked for reasons behind reactions, and I answered according to my experience. Perhaps I need to pick your brains on how you managed this. I don't feel this was an attack--I led off the comments by clarifying-that is not an attack. Realize too, this group 1) doesn't require seconds and 2) cuts off nominations so there aren't 15 books nominated. I'm not criticizing as much as I'm pointing out ways the system may be open to negative impact.

My reaction is because I thought it was against club rules and that is based in part on the very up front pointed messages under the banner to authors about promoting their own books.

Maybe it would help if right under that something was added that author's can nominate their own books (although it does seem a conflict because nominating to me is part of promoting).

Also with other clubs, I've seen author's doing so having their post removed and being directed to the author section so thought it was the same here.

I do think it would be helpful if an author said up front when nominating, I would like you to consider my book....for such and such reason. It may sound odd, but that message would definitely rouse curiosity. (J of course didn't know that because he already had the green light.) However, that said, I for one would not like to see a majority of author-nominated reads in the poll. I don't think it would come to that but with a club this size you never know.

My apologies to J as well. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Carol wrote: "You asked for reasons behind reactions, and I answered according to my experience.

Yes, and thanks for your input!

Carol wrote: "Perhaps I need to pick your brains on how you managed this."

I think having an section dedicated to authors promoting their books is probably part of the reason we haven't had a problem with this.

Carol wrote: "I don't feel this was an attack."

I don't feel that we said it was an attack. However, I thought the tone of comments after J's nomination were mostly negative.

Carol wrote: "Realize too, this group 1) doesn't require seconds and 2) cuts off nominations so there aren't 15 books nominated. I'm not criticizing as much as I'm pointing out ways the system may be open to negative impact."

Actually, we do require seconds. In order for a book to make it onto the poll it has to be nominated and then seconded. Members are allowed to make one nomination and one second, not for the same book. We do restrict the number of books we let into the poll.

I don't think I understand your last point but perhaps that had something to do with not requiring seconds? Would you mind clarifying please?

Flash Beagle wrote: "My reaction is because I thought it was against club rules and that is based in part on the very up front pointed messages under the banner to authors about promoting their own books.

Maybe it w..."

Thanks Flash. I'm not sure announcing a non-rule is necessary, but we'll keep that in mind as it does seem to be a common rule elsewhere. But like Kim and Ala said, it's never been a problem in this group.

As I thought about it, I think the reason it is a general rule is because it seems right - an author should not nominate their own book, it's like a student nominating him/herself for best...whatever. It' just tacky.

That said it at least it re-aired the rules.

How did I miss the controversy here? On other groups I've seen it be a problem. Glad to know this group can allow authors to nominate their own book and not have it lead to every nomination being an author nominated book. On another group I'm on all the small press/indie nominations the last two months have been author nominated books only...

Flash, I can understand that you don't like the idea of authors nominating their own work, but it doesn't raise any strong feelings in me when I see it happen. It's never been a problem in this group, and I can't imagine it becoming a problem.

Tasha - quite the opposite - we've had two author nominated books in the last year or so as far as I can remember, but if not two then maybe three or four. It's not something that happens much probably due to the fact that we're strict about books fitting in with the theme and we have a section dedicated to goodreads authors for authors to post about their new work. I think it's a winning combination :)

That's great Penny :D

So you posted something and people freaked out. Welcome to the Internet -:)

Heh, yes I take your point Chris - this is not an uncommon occurrence on the internet :)

I only reacted so strongly because I felt responsible since the post was made at my suggestion. It wasn't actually my post though. But I do like to try to understand why things that don't bother me in the least seem to upset others which is one of the reasons I started this thread.

I've been curious since this came up and I've looked at other groups and seen that almost all have a rule against authors nominating their own books. Rules are seldom made for things that never happen or aren't abused. Carol, you mentioned that another group doesn't allow members to join during the voting process. I assume that's because they don't want authors to call fans to join the group and all vote for their book?

I think this group looks too big for authors to attempt something like that here, but if they did I'm sure we'd notice and take action. We know roughly how many people vote on the polls every month and if that number changed significantly we'd notice.

Anyway, I'd like to know what everyone thinks so I put up a poll. It's anonymous. I think this might be useful information for authors too if the poll comes out strongly on the side of "no" - I suspect it might do more damage to your reputation to nominate your own book that the exposure you'd get if it made it to the poll. It'll be interesting to see what the results show.

(The outcome won't change our rules, I'm just curious)

It has happened a lot in other groups. An author will get their book nominated and then tell their fans to join that group and vote on the poll. Locking the group during polls is one way to manage that.

I don't think we've ever had the problem here because of the size of the group but also because certain former mods were huge assholes to spammy authors :P

Ala wrote: "I don't think we've ever had the problem here because of the size of the group but also because certain former mods were huge assholes to spammy authors :P "

Did you just call yourself a huge asshole and somehow manage to make that not an insult? :)

I think of it as a compliment, really. :P

Ala wrote: "I think of it as a compliment, really. :P"

:D

Ala wrote: "I think of it as a compliment, really. :P"

As a moderator of a number of groups in the past (yahoo, Delphi forums) I did take the insults as compliments as it meant I was doing things right - keeping the drama off-group and insisting members behave like civilized respectful members... Some found those rules intolerable and felt the need to tell me exactly what they thought of my mean behavior.