Reading the Classics discussion

Discuss chapters 1-10.

I had forgotten how much wit there was in this early Jane. It's a bit more out in the open than in some of her later works where I find it a bit more subtle, but it's every bit as gently biting. And sometimes not so gentle, as in the wonderfully humorous but at the same time quite anger-raising conversation in Chapter 2 in which Mrs. John Dashwood talks her spineless husband into totally repudiating the deathbed promise he made to his father, and basically agrees that the promise can be fairly interpreted to mean helping them abandon the only home the daughters have ever known and sending them out into the unknown with very little money and no help at all from their father's resources.

Jane does a wonderful job of portraying almost inhuman greed.

It's also a fascinating view into how, in an age where women were considered to be virtually powerless, women can in fact exercise enormous power without having any societal or legal right to do so.

The whole emphasis on "estate planning" and wills was fascinating. I dig that stuff. More interesting to me than a conversation about whether so-and-so is "amiable..."

Also interesting: Barton Cottage has four bedrooms (and two garrets) but still Mrs. Dashwood wants to expand it? There are only four of them (plus I guess one or two servants, I don't recall). I'd be interested in knowing the square footage so I could compare it to a house of today.

Everyman wrote: "I had forgotten how much wit there was in this early Jane. It's a bit more out in the open than in some of her later works where I find it a bit more subtle, but it's every bit as gently biting. ..."

I would put Mrs. Fanny Dashwood among the most evil characters that I have thus far encountered in Jane Austen's novels. Greed pure greed is something I abhor. She's like the Bernie Madoff of the eighteenth century. Interesting observation about women with very little formal power being able to exercise quite a bit of power.

Lobstergirl wrote: "Also interesting: Barton Cottage has four bedrooms (and two garrets) but still Mrs. Dashwood wants to expand it? There are only four of them (plus I guess one or two servants, I don't recall). I'..."

It's probably a very big adjustment to like after living in such luxurious conditions, but it would be interesting to know.

Interesting point about women's power, Everyman! But it is also interesting that almost only "evil" women exert this power (at least in Austen's novels).
Elinor is unable to make any kind of influence over her sister Marianne.

O, I don't know. I think Elinor has some influence, but Marianne is very much a free spirit. And those are good observations, Everyman. Think about all the huge historical events that, while the women may not have been in power in a direct sense, definitely made a difference when it came to decisions their husbands or fathers or brothers made. Of course, there are still many Mrs. John Dashwoods in the world today, so sickeningly greedy and controlling that it's disgusting.

I agree. It seems like Elinor has a lot of influence over her mother. I wonder what influence she would have over a husband. I'm inclined to think she would have a lot.

I agree as to Everyman's remarks about women's power in the novel. Moreover, Jane Austen exhibits the selfsame power at a time when others were using male pseudonymous names to get published. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was oft attributed to Percy's pen in the unbelief that she could have written it. George Eliot is another example. Yet, Jane does not resort to the same maneuver.

Perhaps, we see in both Elinor and Marianne something of Jane's own personality and strengths.

However, Jane did not publish using her name because that was considered unladylike in the era. She did admit that it was written by a woman. The author's name in the original printings of her books was "A Lady"

How sad is it that when this book won the voting I thought to myself, "That's good. I think I stopped right before Sense and Sensibility in my Jane Austen anthology." Then when I went to look just now I see that I have actually already read it! I had to actually flip through just to remember who the characters were and what happened. Obviously this one did not leave much of an impression on me.

Oh I love Jane Austen, but of the books that I have read so far, I would definitely put Emma and Pride and Prejudice at the top of the list. Have you read Mansfield Park, tysephine?

Lobstergirl wrote: "Also interesting: Barton Cottage has four bedrooms (and two garrets) but still Mrs. Dashwood wants to expand it? There are only four of them (plus I guess one or two servants, I don't recall). I'..."

I think that they want to be able to entertain more people at a time (and their servant(s)). Also, if I recall (the book is upstairs), don't they only have one parlor, and no library/gent's withdrawing room? That's pretty skimpy for the lifestyle they have been used to.

tysephine wrote: "How sad is it that when this book won the voting I thought to myself, "That's good. I think I stopped right before Sense and Sensibility in my Jane Austen anthology." Then when I went to look just..."

But any Austen is worth re-reading (and re-re-reading, and on endlessly). This is probably my fourth read through, and it is still a delight.

I expect that most people here know Austen's use of "Sensibility," but if any don't, in her day "sensible" did not mean what it does today, but instead meant emotional, governed by the emotions more than the mind. Thus, Sense and Sensibility are opposites, as Austen used them. It's pretty easy to see who these descriptors refer to, isn't it?

Everyman wrote: "Lobstergirl wrote: "Also interesting: Barton Cottage has four bedrooms (and two garrets) but still Mrs. Dashwood wants to expand it? There are only four of them (plus I guess one or two servants, ..."

Also in those days travelling took a lot longer than it does now, so they would have wanted to be able to accommodate overnight guests.

I think the discussion of the perception of women and power during that time is an interesting exercise. I thought Everyman made a great point when he noted that Mrs. John Dashwood's strength/power comes across as evil. And yet we see another more subtle and seemingly more effective power that Miss Elinor Dashwood possesses. To name a couple of examples, her ablility to keep her "sense" about her when it comes to her friendship with Edward inspite of her sister's sensibilities shows a strength that is obviously lacking in young Marrianne. She is also the level head in her family. Mrs. J Dashwood's power could better be labeled manipulation in my opinion.

Jennifer- I have not yet read Mansfield Park. That is where I stopped in my anthology so it is next on my list of Austens.

Tysephine - I have to admit I was surprised, too, when I saw that 1) Sense and Sensibility was already on my bookshelf and that 2) I had read it. It was many years ago, though, for a class I took at University. There are a lot of little smiley faces I used to draw in order to mark parts I found funny :)

Still, it's like reading a new book now and I actually cannot remember much of the story at all. It's odd how you perceive books differently depending on your age and your life experiences so far. There are books I didn't understand when I was very young, but many years later appreciated them. Reading Sense and Sensibility now is also different for me because I've read other novels by Jane Austen in the meantime.

Sensibility, by the way, is one of those 'false friends' words for Germans, as in German a similar word means just what Everyman has explained - emotional, easily moved, sensitive.

I too have already read s&s before. I have been re-reading the novel and have truly enjoyed it. The first time, not so much! It is interesting to try to understand the impact of society expectations of the sexes during this period in this culture. I have also noticed the character development and how each person relates to one another. When I first read this novel the oppression faced by the women was very upsetting to me. Since then I have been married and have my own family/children so feel that I am now better able to relate to the characters and the situations than the first time reading this novel. I've been enjoying this "read" much more because of my own life experiences. My notes on the first read were fairly negative. Amazing how my own life experiences can change my opinion of a novel!

No one ever reads the same book twice...precisely because we are not the same. Robertson Davies once remarked that we should read Vanity Fair at college, at 30, at 50, and again at 70, in order to measure its irony against our ever changing life experiences.

I fully agree with all the comments about books changing, or more accurately our understanding and appreciation of them changing, as we grow older. Major life change are often triggers in changing how we read books -- marriage, children, death of people close to us, jobs, just plain living.

I see Marianne, for example, very differently now from the way I did when I was in college. I won't say more here, because some of the reasons are things that happen in future chapters, and it would be spoilers to talk about it further now. But I'll try to remember to talk about it later in the discussion.

One things that surprised me was that the Dashwoods stayed at least six months at Norland with the John Dashwoods. It must have been tremendously awkward, for Elinor and Mrs. Dashwood in particular having been mistresses of the house (my sense is that Elinor was probably more so than Mrs. Dashwood), but having to allow all the decisions now being made by Mrs. John Dashwood. I get the sense that she would not be particularly concerned to consult anybody else as to arrangements.

Agreed, Everyman. Would you view Mrs. Dashwood as aloof to a fault? Almost in a dysfunctional manner?

Jay wrote: "Agreed, Everyman. Would you view Mrs. Dashwood as aloof to a fault? Almost in a dysfunctional manner?"

Aloof to the Dashwoods, definitely. But would she be aloof to someone with money or status? I doubt it. I think she would fawn.

Austen creates some of the best snobs in literature.

Is she aloof or just in mourning? I do get the impression she loved her husband very much.

The people who think she's aloof are talking about Fanny Dashwood, right?

Fanny = Mrs. John Dashwood
mother Dashwood = Mrs. Henry Dashwood

I think they were meaning Mrs. Henry Dashwood being aloof, as in she doesn't make a huge fuss about having to share her home for six months with people who are essentially kicking her out.

Mrs. John Dashwood would have to entice me out of the estate. I would not go willingly, nor should Mother Dashwood.

Perhaps, but it was a different time with different rules, and while Mrs. Dashwood may have wanted to do that, I don't she felt she had any power to, nor would she have wanted to cause a family drama that would make them the talk of the community.

The rules surrounding estates and inheritances at this time must have had very tragic consequences for some members of the upper and middle classes at this time. A family would lose prestige and consequence if an estate was permitted to be broken up into pieces to give all offspring a share.

As for the characters, isn't it always so amazing to see how people have been the same, basically, no matter whether they lived about 200 years ago or nowadays? Thanks to authors as Jane Austen, who had a way with words, we can still sympathize with them (or not, as for Mrs John Dashwood, for example...).

Even though her characters often seem/are exaggerated (can some be called stereotypes or charicatures?), they still show that, when it comes to feelings, people back then were so alike us.

I also love the scene where Lady Middleton visits the Dashwoods and Jane Austen concludes that "on every formal visit a child ought to be of the party", as otherwise the little get-together would have been even more awkward due to lack of things to talk about. The little boy, of course, is very shy and his mother claims that he's just the opposite at home. The same situation and conversation could take place today!

Seeing similarities between the characters and ourselves is one reason why I love reading those novels. It always boggles my mind a little bit.

Yes, Anne. The marvelous and indispensable literary quality called "verisimilitude." Classic works have a timeless universality that rings true through the ages, no matter who reads them or when.

Lobstergirl wrote: "The people who think she's aloof are talking about Fanny Dashwood, right?

Fanny = Mrs. John Dashwood
mother Dashwood = Mrs. Henry Dashwood"

Right.

Alana wrote: "I think they were meaning Mrs. Henry Dashwood being aloof, as in she doesn't make a huge fuss about having to share her home for six months with people who are essentially kicking her out."

I was talking about Mrs. John Dashwood, but you have a good point. Though I'm not sure I would call her aloof so much as resigned. Almost depressed. She knew probably since her marriage that her residence in that house depended on her husband living, and that at his death she would have no legal right to live there any longer. I think she was counting on John's promise to his father, her husband, to take care of them, but of course as we have seen that didn't really amount to much, but he is letting them keep living there.

I love it when John complains later to Elinor about how the Dashwood women got the plates and linens, and it was such a hardship for him and Fanny to replace them.

I'd like to think every modern mother would say to John, "You're being a **** and you should be ashamed of yourself." I wish we could have heard it from Mother Dashwood. But she's a disciplinary lightweight, sadly.

Since Mrs. Dashwood was not John's mother, it would probably have been inappropriate for her to talk back or discipline him. He was now the head of the family. If she had been his mother, I think she might have retained her precedence over Fanny even after her husband's death, but as a second wife, she lost that in favor of Fanny.

I don't really see her as aloof so much as just not a strong personality.

I've finally ended up rereading S&S, and had forgotten what an enjoyable (and light!) read this is. I'm not surprised about the confusion with the Mrs Dashwoods in the comments above - I also found it difficult to work out which was being referred to until mrs Henry moved out.

I had also forgotten how early on most of the main characters are introduced. Austen seems to have set up a chess board, each player in its position with their possible moves clearly defined, and the game is about to begin!

Pip wrote: "I've finally ended up rereading S&S, and had forgotten what an enjoyable (and light!) read this is. I'm not surprised about the confusion with the Mrs Dashwoods in the comments above - I also found..."

Love the chess board reference. I must have been in a pretty dark place when I read this book because I found that the story line was pretty dark and tragic in some places. Everyone else seems to have experienced it as a light read though.

Jennifer wrote: " I must have been in a pretty dark place when I read this book because I found that the story line was pretty dark and tragic in some places."

I do understand what you mean. There are, indeed, parts that are pretty dark. I won't say more because this is only the thread for chapters 1-10, but when we get to the final chapters where people have read the whole book, we should come back to this question of light read, dark read, cheerful, tragic, etc.

Well, depending on life experiences, I think it certainly can come across as more dark. I have read it twice now, once years ago and a second time earlier this year, before a number of events that might cause my view of it now to be much more jaded. It's a "light" read in that we all know that because it's Austen that it will all work out in the end, the lovers will be happy and all will be well, but we forget the long period of trial in the middle, which for us passes in a few pages, but in the real world would take several months or even years, and while someone is in the midst of those months and years, it can be tormenting.

Sorry, maybe I should put that post in one of the threads later on in the book? Does that sound more like a spoiler?

Not as much a spoiler as a teaser. I really want to know what's going to happen now, but nothing has been spoilt :)

I should really have mentioned that I'm reading Dombey and Son at the same time - comparatively, S&S is light!!! And though I'm no expert, I believe chess can get pretty dark at times too...

I agree with Anne. I'm currently reading Sense and Sensibility and War and Peace and I'm noticing that no matter the social situation, people all have very human problems. These problems range from financial to discovering themselves to feeling the pressures of adulthood and respecting their parent's wishes. It's comforting, yet mind boggling to think we're just like those who lived 200 years ago

I loved this passage from Chapter 10:

"Well, Marianne," said Elinor, as soon as he had left them, "for ONE morning I think you have done pretty well. You have already ascertained Mr. Willoughby's opinion in almost every matter of importance. You know what he thinks of Cowper and Scott; you are certain of his estimating their beauties as he ought, and you have received every assurance of his admiring Pope no more than is proper. But how is your acquaintance to be long supported, under such extraordinary despatch of every subject for discourse? You will soon have exhausted each favourite topic. Another meeting will suffice to explain his sentiments on picturesque beauty, and second marriages, and then you can have nothing farther to ask."—

Yes, it's amusing, but it also does show the breadth of a late teenager's (I think she's 17 at the time, right?) reading at the time. Also interesting that she mentioned two poets but only one novelist. The novel was still in its fairly early stages of development at the time, whereas poetry was long established as a literary genre (along with sermons and plays).

I never read Cowper in my younger years, but after I found him mentioned in several novels, including S&S, I looked him up, and was pleasantly surprised by much of his poetry.

I agree with Everyman that the above quote was a great passage.

Given Marianne's 'sensibility', I'm not surprised that she reads more poetry than novels!

Small quibble: Marianne is 20; Eleanor a few years older. John considers Eleanor an old maid, and thinks Marianne will end up the same way.