The Sword and Laser discussion

So I'm about halfway through the book and I'm completely ambivalent about Louis and Speaker, I find the puppeteer and its society interesting, and I hate Teela.

I really hope she's going to have more to do with the story at some point besides being the sort of bimbo she's been so far, there only to sleep with Louis, get into scrapes for rescuing and providing a bit of good luck. I was thinking at first maybe she really was that woman who'd given him whiplash of the heart, rejuvenated and pretending to be her own descendant, but nope.

Every time Speaker says, "I'm in command" or similar I think, Hodor.

Louis is such an everyman, that I have to keep reminding myself he can't be THAT ordinary, since he has managed to live 200 years and have adventures, but he bores me with his ordinary-ness and his lack of something quirky to distinguish him.

Nessus the puppeteer is kind of interesting. Is he a crazy non-coward from a society of cowards, or is his society something more? Why would the Hindmost agree to be his mate unless they are really trying to breed in the qualities of madness (courage)?

I hate Teela too. Something about male authors from this era in SF cannot write good female characters (in my limited reading). Really hoping she turns this around.

Agree that Im not sure what Teela or Louis bring to this team yet. A lot is left out of the plot while there is a lot of exposition about the ring.

Emily wrote: "I hate Teela too. Something about male authors from this era in SF cannot write good female characters"

To be fair, Niven can't write male characters worth shit either.

Emily wrote: "I hate Teela too. Something about male authors from this era in SF cannot write good female characters (in my limited reading). Really hoping she turns this around.

Agree that Im not sure what Tee..."
Teela's reason for being there will become apparent at the end of the book. Louis, Speaker, etc.. not so much. From what the book tells us, Nessus quite frankly seems to have picked a few people almost at random to come on this very important expedition and it's not really apparent why the people picked (teela aside as you'll see) have been picked.

Although I voted for Ringworld because i wanted the group to read it I'm starting to think that classic period SF has too many compromises and isn't really a fit for S&L - we've come far enough that it's like watching old movies. You can appreciate them for what they are, but the art form has evolved so much that it's hard to really love them in the way that they were loved when released.

The comments in this thread remind me of why I didn't particularly enjoy Ringworld when I read it a few years ago. I typically need characters I care about, not just ideas, to keep me interested in a book.

If you can find James H. Schmitz, he had some good female characters in his stories, despite them being 60's-70's era. They've done some reprints of his works lately.

Hrm, that sounds interesting kvon. Any recommendations on a good book to start with?

Schmitz' most famous book is The Witches of Karres. The first part of it is included as a novella in the SF Hall of Fame collection. Unfortunately, there is a lot of standard-issue gender roles and sexism in that book as well. The 3 sisters in that book are interesting, resourceful and all-around great characters but you'll still get some 50's-60's era attitudes in it. I think it's a fun read and not inherently sexist but, if you're looking for a complete escape from the attitudes of some mid-century SF, I don't think it will provide it.

The issues with Teela and (view spoiler)[ the female character we meet in the last quarter of the book (hide spoiler)] are why I said before it was picked that Ringworld would trigger objections similar to some people's issues with Dragonflight. For my money, the sexism in Ringworld is a much bigger problem with the book than it was for Dragonflight.

I can take sextoy, or kind of clueless, or there to be rescued, but all three combined is a bit much. My real problem with her is that she's so far completely useless to the plot, unless her "luck" will eventually become important, and it better be REALLY important, to justify dragging her along for the rest of the book.

Plenty of other books I've read have silly women (or men) characters, but they usually help move the plot along in some way, or at least they are silly but likeable. The shallowness of the character development here definitely makes her especially hard to swallow. But it seems so far that if you cut her character out there would be absolutely no difference in the story.

Michele,

I.... can't reply without spoilers. Let's just say that Teela is actually essential to the book but how is not made clear until the end (and you may or may not find it satisfying).

Michele wrote: "Every time Speaker says, "I'm in command" or similar I think, Hodor. ..."

Hodor for you . . . Worf for me! This is probably the audiobook reader's doing. But did anyone else who's doing the audio version catch that the reader gave the Kzin character the exact voice and attitude of Lt. Worf from Star Trek - Next Generation? At least for me, it was to the point that if Sci-Fi ever gets around to making the Ringworld mini-series, it would be a shame if they didn't hire Michael Dorn.

Nessus and puppeteer society is pretty interesting, I agree. And Speaker is a pretty typical (WARNING TVTROPES LINK) Proud Warrior Race Guy, but unlike most examples of the archetype I've seen, he's competent in diplomacy and technical skills, so he's a bit more interesting to me.

Elizabeth wrote: "Louis is literally 10 times the age of this girl, he clearly thinks nothing of her and even ponders bringing her or another woman along on one of his 'sabbaticals' as a glorified sex-toy. What a git."

Yeah, for a 200-year-old man, Louis behaves like a grad student who never grew up. While that's not inconceivable behaviour from a career academic, it doesn't make me very sympathetic towards him.

Michele wrote: "I can take sextoy, or kind of clueless, or there to be rescued, but all three combined is a bit much. My real problem with her is that she's so far completely useless to the plot, unless her "luck" will eventually become important, and it better be REALLY important, to justify dragging her along for the rest of the book."

Compounded by the fact that her luck superpower is completely involuntary and beyond her conscious control. So you can add Living MacGuffin/Deus Ex Machina to the list of annoying tropes.

I don't know if anyone else notices this trope, but I find a disproportionate number of female characters with powers they have no control over compared to male characters, who almost always have or eventually learn or regain control. It's like saying a female character can carry a gun, but it will only shoot bad guys if her finger slips or she drops it and it accidentally discharges.

Alan wrote: "For my money, the sexism in Ringworld is a much bigger problem with the book than it was for Dragonflight."

You're right. Say what you will about Lessa's character, at least she had agency.

None of the characters are particularly well developed, but then again, I see this more as an ideas book and willing to cut Mr. Niven a little slack.

Louis bugs the shit out of me. I find him to be a condescending, paternalistic jack ass. I want Speaker to eat him.

Wow...! Am I the only person here that actually LIKED all the characters.

Sure, Teela is shallow, but there is a good reason for that, and I found her lack of fear refreshing, along with her casual approach to sex.

I liked Louis, and a lot of his ways made me think of several old people I know who think they are still young, only he has the advantage of actually being young physically, and with a lot of life experience, which he appears to have wasted the way I might waste a precious day off. He has plenty of time, after all.

I thought Speaker was cute, but I probably wouldn't tell him that - I don't have Teela's luck.

And Nessus interested me a lot, and I wanted to know more about him. He seems like he has an awful lot of secrets.

Ruth wrote: "Wow...! Am I the only person here that actually LIKED all the characters.

Sure, Teela is shallow, but there is a good reason for that, and I found her lack of fear refreshing, along with her casua..."

You're not the only one, I agree with you. I'm glad to hear from more people who enjoyed it because the initial responses seemed so negative that it discouraged me...I've loved most of what I've read with the group and am always a little bummed when people don't enjoy something I think is great fun.

Speaker was the only character with any real depth; Nessus was a somewhat distant second.

Louis was cardboard. Teela was...what everyone else posted.

The worst part was that there was no real character development. Speaker remains aggressive with a peaceful streak, Nessus remains cowardly with spasms of courage, Louis remains cardboard. Teela's development is obvious because Louis explicitly states that she has changed. Why not SHOW us? Not that her character changed in a good way: she went from being oblivious eye candy for Louis to less-oblivious eye candy for (view spoiler)[Seeker (hide spoiler)]. GAAAH!

This would not have been such a huge problem if the story had had good ideas, but nope. So frustrating.

The funny thing is that, to me, Teela is the most believable character. Look, she's an attractive 20 year old who lives in a time of apparent prosperity where people can step through transporters to anywhere on the planet. At one point Louis uses a public version so this seems common. She's apparently has a fairly privileged background. Now, look around you at 20 year olds (male or female) from coddled, upper middle class backgrounds. Aren't there quite a few who are naive, shallow and self-centered? I mean, think about all of the people who breathlessly follow TMZ and other entertainment 'news.'

The issue with Teela is simply that she doesn't grow that much despite having some pretty incredible experiences.

I really think that Ringworld suffers from being fairly short and not setting much background up for either the world or the characters. After all, we're shown Louis, he's intercepted and then we quickly learn about the mission, pick up the rest of the crew (which seems VERY haphazardly put together) and then bam, we're off.

Too, much of the acclaim Ringworld got initially was for the vision of a ring world I think. It was one of the first mainstream books to showcase such an object and the concept probably seemed amazing at the time and people excused the stock characters, lack of chracter development and lack of a real plot. I'm not sure the latter's that much of an issue - it's basically 'crash land, explore' and in that sense is like a cast-away novel.

The problem with Teela is that (view spoiler)[luck (hide spoiler)] is a huge part of her character. In fact, it is the dominant component of her character. This was totally unnecessary. As you say, people with her traits exist in the world today. The novel would have been much better if that angle had been taken instead.

Oh, I think Niven wanted her luck to be some kind of backing reason for them ending up there... but I agree it's weird and only peripherally necessary. I see it in that someone who's incredibly lucky would probably also be sheltered from experiences that could make her more nuanced, but... eh.

If that is the only way to get the characters to Ringworld, then there are MAJOR issues in the narrative.

Well, yes. :)

I get why people like this (I did on first read years ago), but it's not a book that stands up to scrutiny about why certain things are done or why they happen. I mean, why does Nessus take those 3 people (yes, there's some discussion of why he doesn't do an all-Puppeteer expedition) but why Louis (who seems to have no real expertise aside from "hey, you've survived a long time so you're probably not a complete idiot")? Why a Kzin at all (politics aside)?

giving background and fleshing out some of this would have been interesting.

I guess I feel that Niven should have written this as a short story, and then the characters would have mattered less.

Or expanded the first part, giving us more insight into the characters etc, yes. He's more of a big picture guy tho, so your idea would likely have been better though it would be much harder to get that big object feeling in a novella or something. It wouldn't work as an actual short story.

I can only speak for myself, but I felt that the novel contained no more than a short story's worth of content.

I liked the characters and I didn't mind the luck aspect or the portrayals of the women...but I don't want to sound like a broken record repeating the same reasons I've stated in multiple threads now. I guess it's a very love it or hate it sort of book and subjective as to whether you like the balance of character and 'big ideas' or not.

I was actually fine with most of the characters in the book except for Louis. His constant whining and self concern for Teela was annoying.