Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

quote found at:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/17764...

Hi all. I am disappointed to find this quote misattributed to neil gaiman. It is a time honored GK Chesterton Quote. Almost 20,000 people like this quote and are being led to believe Neil Gaiman said it first AND not only that but, also look at the tags:

tags: books, dragons, fairy-tales, inspirational, >>>misattributed-to-g-k-chesterton<<<

This is completely wrong and needs a Librarian to Fix! Please and thank you!

“Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten.”
~ G. K. Chesterton, writer

I'm going to ask for a second opinion on this guy, just because it's a bit of a special case.

The actual G.K. Chesterton quote is "Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon." and has it's own entry here.

"Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten" is a paraphrase of the original quote. It's earliest known attribution of the quote is by Neil Gaiman in Coraline. I checked this against my copy of Coraline and can confirm that it does appear as an epigraph and Gaiman credits it to G.K. Chesterton.

A possible solution would be to add the attribution of Chesterton in the body of the quote but leave it attributed to Gaiman here. Definitely remove the misattributed-to-g-k-chesterton tag and add a paraphrased tag.

Anyone have thoughts?

The quote in the OP is by Neil Gaiman. The Chesterton version is very different both in wording and in tone.

The version that the OP adds (“Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten.”
~ G. K. Chesterton, writer) is NOT what Chesterton wrote any more than the Gaiman version is what Chesterton wrote. I say leave both on Goodreads BUT the most popular version is by Gaiman because.

I added the "misattributed-to-g-k-chesterton" tag but if we can come up with a better wording then ...

But there are so many 'paraphrased' quotes. If we start trying to define which ones are originals and which are derivative then I'm going to want a pay rise. I would just treat the Gaiman quote as a Gaiman Quote.

Just for completeness here are two previous discussions on the same quote.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Banjomike, you can get your pay rise from your new job after you are fired for not preventing a lawsuit due to plagiarism.

I'm completely serious so I'll give you a chance to fix it right. This is how Turabian says to handle the situation:

17.10 One Source Quoted in Another

Responsible researchers avoid repeating quotations that they have not actually seen in the original. If one source includes a useful quotation from another source, readers expect you to obtain the original to verify no only that the quotation is accurate, but also that it fairly represents what the original meant.
If the original source is unavailable, however, cite it as "QUOTED IN" the secondary source in your note. For the bibliography entry, adapt the "QUOTED IN" format as needed.
(Turabian 215)


I'm not asking you to use any professional academic standard here. I am simply asking that you get it right. If Gaiman attributes it to Chesterton, then you need to include Chesterton in the quote's credits. ALA

GK Chesterton, quoted in Coraline by Neil Gaiman.

Gaiman is paraphrasing chesterton's ideas which means this is not his quote and therefore not his to take complete credit for.

So my ultimatum is fix it and keep your job.

Mostly because I cannot stand arrogance: Banjo is a volunteer. So are all the other librarians. We are in no way monetarily compensated for this. Second, this group has had this discussion before, and it was believed that this quote is sufficiently different from the original that it may be allowed to stay.

And finally, Goodreads does not use any known style manual. It's a private company with it's own rules.

What a wonderful attitude he has that he sees his volunteering as requiring money to put up with doing the right thing.

Im sorry Lafon but you have got to be kidding me. Its not sufficiently different enough to misinform people that this quote is "misattributed-to-g-k-chesterton".

misattributed means that it is incorrect to say GK chesterton EVER said anything close to this.

Since Gaiman is quoting Chesterton, the Tag has to be replaced by a "quoting-from-G-K-Chesterton".

arrogance really? Banjo is the one who brought up his monetary compensation. I am not getting paid to argue with you but you dont see me crying about it.

I dont need the quote removed, I need the tag changed accordingly.

Petêr wrote: "Since Gaiman is quoting Chesterton, the Tag has to be replaced by a "quoting-from-G-K-Chesterton"."


It is not, properly speaking, plagiarism. Here's why: because it appears in Coraline without being attributed (to my knowledge, but I could be wrong), it's technically a stand-alone quote. Here on Goodreads we write up whatever is in the book in question irrespective of what the original work was. And iirc, paraphrasing is not plagiarism anyway.

We could probably change the tag to "originally from chesterton" or some such, but I don't think it's going to change much.

Second, 'twas a joke about the pay rise.

Third, I apologize for the snark. It was not in good faith.

Folks, please tone it down or I will lock the thread. I'd really rather not.

Petêr, thank you for bringing up the issue. However, you will find that being less confrontational in this group is more likely to get results.

I didn't give any initial attitude. Your volunteer buddy Banjo decided that because he says so, no other opinion matters and its too much work for a volunteer to fix things that are wrong because his pay is low.

Lafon doesn't realize Plagiarism is any idea, not necessarily words quoted incorrectly.

I'm using this as a quick reference so you can understand, http://plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/...

Take a close look at #8 404 Error: Includes citations to non-existent or inaccurate information about sources.

Saying that the quote is mis-attributed to Chesterton is inaccurate information. The quote of Gaiman is a paraphrase of Chesterton's IDEA. If you say that its mis-attributed you say its not Chesterton's idea and its only attributable to Gaiman.

We've established that this is not the case. It should be simple. I, your friendly user, find an error to help your website from being sued, and you friendly volunteer admin, fix the error. But no instead I'm listening to lafon's theories on arrogance/plagiarism and Banjo's complaints about not being paid enough.

I will contact the Chesterton society, the publisher and your copyright department so we can resolve this if you continue to let your online egos get in the way of a reasonable request.

So fix it and let the thread be done.

First point, you should probably stop talking about money and pay. You may be the only person on Goodreads who was not aware that all Librarians and Super Librarians are volunteers. We are all in it for the pleasure of books (and quotes). I'm sorry if I confused you with a joke.

So, to recap. This is a larger chunk from the original Chesterton essay.
From The Red Angel by G.K. Chesterton published in Tremendous Trifles, 1909
The timidity of the child or the savage is entirely reasonable; they are alarmed at this world, because this world is a very alarming place. They dislike being alone because it is verily and indeed an awful idea to be alone. Barbarians fear the unknown for the same reason that Agnostics worship it—because it is a fact. Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.
Exactly what the fairy tale does is this: it accustoms him for a series of clear pictures to the idea that these limitless terrors had a limit, that these shapeless enemies have enemies in the knights of God, that there is something in the universe more mystical than darkness, and stronger than strong fear.

The epigraph from Coraline by Neil Gaiman, 2004
Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.
G.K. Chesterton

I stand by my remark that the Neil Gaiman and G.K. Chesterton versions are very different both in wording and especially in tone.

The "misattributed-to-g-k-chesterton" tag only appears on the Gaiman quote and only refers TO that quote. Gaiman clearly came up with that quotation based on his interpretaion of the Chesterton original BUT it is very different. Therefore to say that Chesterton wrote the Gaiman quote WOULD be a misattribution so your suggestion of "quoting-from-G-K-Chesterton" would also be wrong.

Both quotes are different enough, in my opinion, to be allowed to continue to exist as quotes in their own right.

In my first posting on this thread, which was a month ago, I added "but if we can come up with a better wording then ..." which I thought might encourage someone to devise a more suitable wording.

My main issue is with attributing it to Chesterton when he didn't say it so how about if we add a tag "paraphrasing G.K. Chesterton" and remove "misattributed-to-g-k-chesterton", leaving the Gaiman & Coraline attribution unchanged? In fact, I've made the change so we can see what it looks like here.

Comments...

Update: I am really embarrassed to find this link to the official Neil Gaiman Tumblr page. I have no idea how I managed to miss it.

http://neil-gaiman.tumblr.com/post/42...

"It’s my fault. When I started writing Coraline, I wrote my version of the quote in Tremendous Trifles, meaning to go back later and find the actual quote, as I didn’t own the book, and this was before the Internet. And then ten years went by before I finished the book, and in the meantime I had completely forgotten that the Chesterton quote was mine and not his.

I’m perfectly happy for anyone to attribute it to either of us. The sentiment is his, the phrasing is mine."

I stand by the change I proposed in my previous post.

Banjomike wrote: "I stand by the change I proposed in my previous post."

Sounds good to me.

Credit should be given where credit is due.

So, I agree, Gaiman should get the credit for the quote, as he coined it, not Chesterton. However, I disagree that he is the only one who should get credit, as he himself credits Chesterton as the source, as the original.

Paraphrasing another's ideas doesn't make them yours, no matter how different the words or how different the tone. The tag is an improvement, but I would argue that Chesterton needs to be included in the citation itself, in some way similar to the following:

- Neil Gaiman, "Coraline"
(source: G.K. Chesterton)

Our system does not support such double attributions.

I see what you mean - I went and tried to add a quote myself. This is not a problem with the person adding the quote, it's a problem with the system. It doesn't provide a way for the user to properly and fully attribute such embedded quotes.

It would be so much simpler if the phrase in question here wasn't a paraphrase rather than a true quote. But it seems users would still want to make note of where they read it, no matter where it was originally from.

Anyway, I apologize for the criticism misdirected at you and yours. I have done my best to pass on my concerns regarding the system to those who can adapt it.

Jpricerj wrote: "Anyway, I apologize for the criticism misdirected at you and yours. "

Don't worry about that. As far as this specific quote is concerned, it gets discussed every so often and we settle on the Coraline version being attributed to Gaiman and the Chesterton version to Chesterton.

I cannot see how Goodreads could, practically speaking, start checking on whether something is 'paraphrased' or 'based on' or simply not remembered correctly and therefore entered INcorrectly. Quotes are something of a black art (or black hole) when it comes to identifying sources. It doesn't matter how famous the saying there is always likely to be doubt about whether or not it was said. Six of the top ten quotes on Goodreads can't be proven to be correctly attributed. The most famous J.K. Rowling quote is based on one that is over a century old.

Famous people are not above plagiarism law.

It seems since Gaiman includes Chesterton's name at the end of the quote, that Chesterton's name could be included in the same form as the final bit of text in the goodreads quote, thus saving us from denying its presence in Coraline, and also from false attribution. I love Gaiman, but plagiarism is plagiarism - I'm glad he corrected his mistake

Trice wrote: "It seems since Gaiman includes Chesterton's name at the end of the quote, that Chesterton's name could be included in the same form as the final bit of text in the goodreads quote, thus saving us from denying its presence in Coraline, and also from false attribution. I love Gaiman, but plagiarism is plagiarism - I'm glad he corrected his mistake "

Gaiman included Chesterton's name not as part of the quotation but as an attribution. But Chesterton did NOT write it so that attribution is wrong. Therefore, we don't include Chesterton as part of the quotation but we do have the "paraphrasing G.K. Chesterton" as a rider on the attribution. Not plagiarism.