Rothfussians discussion

Hello all! Lorren really intrigues me. I'm wondering (above anything else) how he knew Kvothe's father was a "bard" and why he was wondering what troupe he performed in. I've heard theories that he is a member of the Amyr. What does everyone think?

Actually, Pat addressed this in an interview with TOR.com after they finished doing there very awesome reread of his series.

In short, Lorren knows of Arliden because he is a popular song writer in the world of the 4Corners. He addressed Kvothe after learning he was Arliden's son because some of the attribution for lyrics is pretty shoddy I guess and he thought Kvothe could help him identify and catalogue which songs were actually written by his father with more assurity.

There is no confirmation that he is connected with the Amyr but it's a popular fan theory, and many like to think he is working for them. But putting together any actual facts is pretty rough going from what I've seen on the subject.

Anywho, here is a link to the first part of the interview from Pat's blog, you can read it and follow his link to the end of the interview which was featured on the TOR Website. I believe the answer you are looking for is actually the final question of the interview.

http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012/...

So cool! Thanks Amber.

Master Lorren is most definitely Amyr (or one of the "manlings" playing at being Amyr). Master Lorren is too in control of his presenece, wearing that calm like a warriors mask. He simply is much too intimidating to just be an archivist. There is a profound martial quality to Lorren's character that is not present in any of the other masters.

One of the main traits of the Amyr is that they are "warriors" for the greater good. That hints at an overall cool calculating slightly dispassionate attitude/presence. Sound like anyone we know?

First off, I have to disagree with the fact that he is 'definitely' one. There have been certain personality hints that suggest it but perhaps not, he could just as easily be one of the Adem who has reformed his sign language ways.

Yah, I hate to say "definitely" about anything.
Chris makes a great point about his possibilities as an Adem, a culture we have far more information on and his characteristics seem to fit with just as easily.

With how much we know about the Amyr its easy to say just about ANYONE is one because it is vague at best. If you take that information, it's easy deduce even that Master Lorren wouldn't be a ciradae, the warrior branch of the amyr, as he has no visual markings on his body - something that as far as we know, all ciradae should have. I've heard arguments that this could have eventually faded out of practice, but honestly, thats completely speculative so I can't get behind it 100%.

Just as easily, Master Lorren could have something like Aspergers which leads him to "come off" differently than most people and be less facially emotive.

Lorren's just a cool guy. A bit neurotic, sure, but can you blame him?

Also:

The hand that held the fire/king killed.

Chris wrote: "First off, I have to disagree with the fact that he is 'definitely' one. There have been certain personality hints that suggest it but perhaps not, he could just as easily be one of the Adem who ha..."

Adem, nope. No hand talk, no lack of affinity for public music or musicians. None of the Adem social quirks except for the silent presence. Plus Kvothe would have noticed after his return from Ademre.

He has discouraged Kvothe's research quite a few times in the area of the Amyr and the Seven.

Plus he is placed highly in the university and controls access to information (propaganda control) this is exactly what the Amyr want. Only someone in that position could pull that off. If he is not of the order, then he is a strong ally.

Also, the Ctheath mentioned that Kvothe could go to the Masters for research on the Amyr, so perhaps he was talking about Lorren and Elodin (since he knows everything).

I think Chris was trying to suggest that Lorren could be a more assimilated Adem. Not all Adem go to the school that Kvothe went too, they have different schools with different focuses, Vashet attended one before coming to Shehyn's school, it stands to reason that different schools offer different social terms.
It would be unneccessary and altogether just weird, if Lorren continued to use hand talk in an educators positions in my opinion. Hand Talk is nice, but to be clear and direct, you need to use actual words, especially in a situation where you are a teacher of multiple cultures where Hand Talk is not normal or even existant.
Not to mention, we really don't know if he uses hand talk or not in regular social situations. We have only seen him in formal situations where using Hand Talk would be useless anyway. Just because the book doesnt say he uses hand talk, doesn't mean that he doesn't use it either. A lack of evidence in either direction, doesn't disprove or prove anything.
(which is pretty much why, I don't support either theory 100%, lack of evidence either way, I'm just offering a bit of perspective for your future rereads)

As for Music, we know that not all Adem look at music with disdain. Tempy enjoys it enough to desire to learn about it, showing a break in social norms, even Vashet enjoys it when Kvothe plays to her. Needless to say, it's shown through those two characters specifically how the outside cultures of this world do have an effect on those ademic who experience it, and that some even welcome and enjoy these experiences. Also, how it changes them from those Adem who do not experience these things.
Basically...Ademic Liberalism. At least thats what I would call it. Every society has a both conservative and non-conservative side to it. That's just life. It would be unrealistic to write as if every person in a society fit their cultural stereotype.

Outside of that, we really don't know if Lorren likes or dislikes music anyway. He shows no interest in Kvothe's music, he is never seen at the Eolian, there are no scenes where Lorren is listening to music, he shows interest in properly catalogueing (excuse my spelling please) musical writing. Thats very very far from appreciating it. He's a librarian basically, this is his job, which he obviously cares about, he see's an opportunity to do it better, he grabs it. He shows little other positive interest in Kvothe. So in my opinion, again this is a point where nothing is proven or disproven. We simply do not know what Lorren does in his free time or how he feels about any point of view other than having exposed flames near books or researching beings considered mythical fairytales by most educated humans living.

As for if Kvothe would notice or not that Lorren had cultural archtypes that relate back to Ademre, it's definitely subjective. Depends on a persons opinion of the character. We know he recognizes Cinder, but thats an extreme stress trigger in his life. So in my opinion, comparing that single time of recognition with an instant recognition of any ademic person ever, is a huge stretch, and in my opinion psychologically unlikely.
Then again, we round back to the unsaid. Kvothe makes very few personal observations of Lorren, also there is always the possibility that Kote just didn't see that as a necessary thing to reveal to Bast and Chronicler as it has little bearing on the story.

As for Lorren's discouragement of searching out information about the Amyr and Chandrian, a lot of people seem to take this as a confirmation he simply MUST be Amyr. I just don't see it that way. I've been discouraged from writing papers on subjects before as well, because they were either considered offensive or very difficult to research. That doesn't mean that any of my teachers were trying to hide information from me. They just wanted me to try something more "my level" or something that would cause less friction in a public setting that they have to police. I won't deny the possibility that Lorren could be Amyr, but to get that, it does take a good deal of inferrence. There isn't many reasons to not take what Lorren says at face value, he has been upfront and honest in every confirmable situation. Even when confronted by Elodin about Kvothe's existing ban from the archives.


Okay, this is ridiculously long so I'm going to shut up, I guess I'm just trying to say that I don't see why he couldn't be ademic. I'm not against either theory. I just think if you look at the actual evidence objectively Lorren could fall into a lot of catagories, including Amyr and Adem.

Amber, I agree you can't throw out any evidence for Lorren, for him or against him. Kvothe only notices Elodin using hand talk after he comes back from Ademre. He has no (???) interaction with Lorren afterwards (correct me if I'm wrong), so who's to say he wouldn't notice something new when he did.

I'm of the camp who believe that Lorren is Amyr, tbh. But I'm also of the camp who is unsure of just what that means. We know there were never any (original) human Amyr, and we know they somehow eventually came to be - remember Duke Cut-em-up, or whatever his name was - and we know they were eventually disbanded by the church. That pretty much leaves their present whereabouts, and more importantly MOTIVES, unknown.

Amber wrote: "I think Chris was trying to suggest that Lorren could be a more assimilated Adem. Not all Adem go to the school that Kvothe went too, they have different schools with different focuses, Vashet att..."

Wow... ok, Wow. Your next assignment is to have sex. If you have any questions about the matter, see me after class...

That was a paper and a half. I should probably restate what I said. "I" believe that he is definitely Amyr. Patrick R. does not strike me as the vague type. He is doing a fairly excellent job of dropping tantalizing hints for us readers to chew on between books. If Lorren was Adem his description would have included the common Adem physical traits and quirks (he touches eyes too much). Anyway "I" believe this. I can't speak for anyone else.

hey Amber, gonna through some dissent your way :)

"Vashet attended one before coming to Shehyn's school, it stands to reason that different schools offer different social terms."

The school of Joy is indeed what passes for liberal ademic culture, and yet she still has the same social mor re music & is the one to explain it to K. Joy's libralness shows in that she is tolerant of the 4c custom when in the 4c's. Other, more conservative, adem do not go to the 4c because of the barbarism.

Hand Talk- we do see Lorren using (to us) normal facial expressions. Frowning/smiling etc. Vashet is a good example of a 4c aclimatised adem, and yet the stillness of face is only slightly relaxed in her...as made clear when she demonstrates the diff to K.

"As for Music, we know that not all Adem look at music with disdain."
Adem do not view music with disdain at all. They enjoy it in private. They view public displays of it with disdain. Sex is a good comparison. I bet we all enjoy sex and yet would balk at getting down and dirty in say...a supermarket aisle. Yet I'd also bet that we've sung along with a song upon occasion whilst shopping.

I would argue that Lorren's interest it appropriately attributing Arliden's work to him does seem more of a personal interest. The way he approache's K regarding it is set aside, in text, from the previously professional convo.

I would also argue that the Adem have been presented as distinct racially. (Which leads into the Adem genetics thread...)

Personaaly I think Lorren is Arturan His colouring is similar to Sim's, as are their bearings which implies that they are of a similar class. A wealthy background is supported by his position- poor students like K being arguably less common. This BG, Ed' & position intuits a more anti-amyr perspective.

It could very well be that his aquisitions team are actually hunting down and returning the texts that were taken/lost during the last 40yrs. Though I still thin a lot of the texts are kept with the blood and bone runes texts.

Then there is the Teccam window, and the slogan aluding to Knowledge. His role being intimately linked with the library...I think he is part of an order which grew from/in support of the Knowers.

Ashley wrote: "hey Amber, gonna through some dissent your way :)

"Vashet attended one before coming to Shehyn's school, it stands to reason that different schools offer different social terms."

The school of Jo..."

Hmmm very interesting, the Knowers..
The aquisitions thought, I can see that as a possibility. More to chew on.

@Karen - yes, thats a much more succinct way to put it. I don't disagree with the possibility of Lorren being an Amyr, but I also realize there is a lot of words surrounding Lorren, that offer very little in way of definitive fact.

@Falanasi - First off, LOL! Now, I do understand your viewpoint, I certainly wasn't trying to say outright that you are wrong, I just wanted to offer some other possibilities so that maybe you wouldn't feel so positive about Lorren's affiliations....mostly because I'm evil.

@Ashley - You made a great case. I think your post is an excellent backfire at mine for people to look at the opposing viewpoints and information than consider there opinion about this specific character. I mean, the way that Lorren is presented, you DO get the impression he is possibly working with or for some outside force, but the group he is working with can vary so much it's hard to be completely sure about any of them. Though I do like the idea that he could be a knower and Aturan, I hadn't noticed the similarities between Lorren and Sim. Thats interesting for sure. I have also thought that if Lorren is working for some outside group it would be something more obscure than the Amyr. Knowers is one I never considered but certainly will in the future.

Lorren does make a cutting hand talk motion when Kvothe is banned.

My belief is that Elodin studied with the adem, and Lorren is in some way connected with the amyr. Not gonna argue the specifics of it, but as someone pointed out Pat does leave us hints. Many of which are linguistic. And the same way that Elodin speaks hand talk, we found language pointing toward amyr in the library which lorren is in charge of. that being said, it is an ambiguous place to look for evidence in language being that it IS a huge archive. But that is still my gut feeling.