Christian Readers discussion

Mickey quote:
" "Mormonism" I have proven Paul of The Acts was a false prophet."

Not even close Mickey. You have proven that maybe you were dropped on your head as a child. Not a single person here has taken anything you say seriously.

I'm curious if you have ever had the slightest spiritual impact on anybody? Family members don't count - they are probably just pretending to make you feel better.

The Bible is an incredible Book given to us by God: nothing you say against it is even worth contemplating. Maybe you should start your own website and wait for followers to come to you.

106 Rod: I have several websites and they are as dead as a door nail. My followers on beliefnet number 20,644 but none of them will reply to anything I have said so far. With preachers, bible colleges, evangelist, TV, on the radio competing with ministers that have been dead for years, with all the protestant churches, Mormon churches, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindue, and all the other kinds of churches. If a persons only requirment is to, "believe" that is easy enough for most people St John 3:16 for instance. That is why I became a carpenter I knew how hard it would be to change anyones mind from what their parents believed. 80% wouldn't even think their parents were wrong. Jesus left the 99 and went to the 1 that should tell us something.

As Jesus set with sinners, I also prefer not to associate with half baked christions, I call it playing church with there smoke, signing, candles, water baptism, sacraments, blessing motorcycles, purgatory, multi-wives, greetings, and without a clue.

107 J.D: When a person loses a ring and they find it, do they keep on looking for the ring. That was the way I was when the spirit removed my heart and gave me a new one with verification of verses in the KJB of 1611. Why than would I read the book of Mormon? But I know a lot about what there doctrine is. I believe they have the best, "man-made" religion on the earth.

J.D. question:
"has anyone here actually read the book of mormon?"

I have it infront of me. Haven't read it all yet. It's very interesting that I have never had a serious discussion with a Mormon about this book. It's always about the Bible and Christian history (Mormons are so desperate to be accepted as a member of the Christian belief system). There is also lots of conflict about Mormon's other writings:

Pearl of Great Price/Doctrine and Covenants/The Articles of Faith

I doubt many Mormons have actually read all of these things. Someday I would like to - but there's just not enough time to read all the religious writings offered in the world. Getting through the Quran is a huge feat.

But I agree with you J.D.: 90% of my time should be spent getting to know the Bible.

You are hilarious Mickey: Best quote ever -
" My followers on beliefnet number 20,644 but none of them will reply to anything I have said so far."

Why does that not surprise me?! :D

110 Rod: What that showes is how deeply ingrained the false doctrine is in the churches and religious organizations. When they have St John 3:16 why seek any other truth, that verse is easy to live by. The Moslem they get 70 virgins when they die, why seek any other truth it sounds good to us. Reincarnation: you might come back as Dolly Parton or Marlyn Monroe or Swortsnager with his muscles. A cow in India could be your brother or mother?

But how do we know YOU are not the one ingrained in false doctrines Mickey? What makes YOUR account any more valid than Muhammad or Paul or Buddha or Joseph Smith?

I'll stick with the WHOLE Bible. It has proven itself through history...you have NOT.

111: Rod, I have a personal code of ethics to not really believe people who can't even spell all that well. Likely comes from the speller within me. And also, you show simplistic understanding of certain other religious systems and use certain stereotypes, not a good idea.
112: Rod, you sound like me. I'm a Christian, yet I use the term "paranoid skeptic" because I do not readily believe what others try to tell me to believe, I challenge other beliefs (in a civilized way, of course) to gain a better understanding of a point-of-view beyond my own.
Now, my reasons for not accepting Mormonism:
1. Racism, they were HUGELY racist when they started, starting with Smith Jr. and there have been numerous reports how dangerously racial they were. Today, they're not as obvious, but several of their doctrines show subtle racism (like whites can have celestial families after death, but Africans can not).
2. The belief that God was a human and had to go through a trial of sins and temptations. On a planet called Kolob. If he passed all the trials, he could become god. They still hold to a doctrine that states if they can withhold from sin throughout life, they can become as gods. Sound familiar? The very same words Lucifer, as a serpent, spoke into Eve's ear to tempt her.
3. Rituals. I'm one who can't stand the thought of having to rely on rules and regulations to become "perfect" in any way, let alone do rituals. And Mormonism has quite a many strange ritual, including baptizing the dead. They wish to believe their rituals are secret, but they are not.
4. Extreme legalism. The Bible reveals that, though you can study it in a group, it's also recommended to study it on one's own. Mormonism defies that by actually coercing people to study it they way their church tells them to. Not to mention, you question one little thing or another and they treat you like an ardent evolutionist treats anyone who questions evolution to the slightest degree- gruelingly.
Should I go on?

The Bible has books, chapters, and verses with a true meaning to each one of them. If you where able to compare what Paul wrote to what is in the Gospel and the Old Testament there is no comparison. Just one verse will seperate those that go to be with God in His kingdom and those that don't. St John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee (Nicodemus)Except a man be born of water (Born again the 3rd verse) and of the Spirit,(Holy Ghost) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(This kingdom is on this earth or your saved on this earth and you become part of the kingdom of God.) Paul came in his own name, Jesus spoke in parables part of the time (why) did all the parables stop with Paul.

Rod wrote: "J.D. question:
"has anyone here actually read the book of mormon?"

I have it infront of me. Haven't read it all yet. It's very interesting that I have never had a serious discussion with a Mormon ..."

I have read the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible and many commentaries. Both books have very little actual archeological proofs that what they claim actually happened. Both are filled with great stories. I suspect it is mans desire to have someway to explain the past. I am a non church going Christian and believe the Bible and what it says and have no problems with what the Book of Mormon says. With no actual proof that any of the things in either book actually happened I remain a skeptic at best.

If you want to get rid of a couple of Mormons, say baptism in water is not necessary. I understand it is the basis of all their belief system, they even build special temples to do it in. Marriages, and they get rid of sin, etc.. John who was baptizing in water said Jesus way must increase, but my way must decrease.

Mickey, to my understanding, you seem to have conflicts about the Bible, specifically why Jesus spoke in parables part of the time and the basis of Mormon rituals.
If you've read the Bible, you would know that Jesus was prophesied to speak in parables, but in teaching, not like in actual conversation with everyone (that's what I picked up on from your questioning, which I could be wrong about). Not only that, He used parables as symbolic teachings and thought-provoking messages for people to mull over the symbolisms of. Peoplet hen were like people now- they WANT bare surface stuff, not something to "waste" time thinking about the meaning of. People who use their time to think about something can actually see things in a different view of the world.
Now, as for baptism, Mormonism sees it as the key to salvation, which is not found in the Bible. In fact, when one of the thieves asked Jesus to remember him in Heaven, it's very well implied he'd never been baptized in water (let alone spirit, a major thing in Christianity), so it came as a shock to him to hear the Messiah promise that he would be in paradise, not simply remembered. If baptism were such a great key to salvation, then that shouldn't be in the Bible, that specific part of the story, for it would be heretical to include. And yes, Mormonism does have the belief that baptism is mandatory in faith, when it's more of what a youth pastor I know called "club entrance," meaning something to do to be recognized in a club or group.
Now, what do you think John meant by Jesus had to increase so he, himself, must decrease?
Let's hear it.

The Bible says "don't engage in foolish controversies." Why is everyone giving so much time to Mickey's blasphemies? He needs prayer but he doesn't need attention.

J.D. wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "The Bible says "don't engage in foolish controversies." Why is everyone giving so much time to Mickey's blasphemies? He needs prayer but he doesn't need attention."

Amen.

(...... T..."
2 Timothy 2 23 26
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Good food for thtought.
Here's another I love: Colossians 2:8

Clayton wrote: "J.D. wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "The Bible says "don't engage in foolish controversies." Why is everyone giving so much time to Mickey's blasphemies? He needs prayer but he doesn't need attention."

Ame..."

Clayton: Thanks. Guess I wasn't too kind to Mickey there, but everyone has said everything they can say to him. I do remember reading about "foolish controversies" somewhere. I'll look it up and get back. My first Bible was the American Standard. Maybe that is where I saw it.

Titus 3:9

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Titus 3:9 (NAS)

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.(NIV)

But avoid stupid and foolish controversies and genealogies and dissensions and wrangling about the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile.(Amplified)

These are from Bible Gateway. I entered "foolish controversies" It wasn't "don't engage". It was "avoid".

Pat W. wrote: "Clayton wrote: "J.D. wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "The Bible says "don't engage in foolish controversies." Why is everyone giving so much time to Mickey's blasphemies? He needs prayer but he doesn't need ..."
I try to live my life by the following quote. It is very difficult sometime and I do want to try and persuade people to live the life they should by example rather than argument. Some can not be saved because of their own foolishness.
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Clayton wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "Clayton wrote: "J.D. wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "The Bible says "don't engage in foolish controversies." Why is everyone giving so much time to Mickey's blasphemies? He needs prayer but h..."I believe that means "judge harshly." We need discernment. We need to know the difference between right and wrong. I have sympathy for redeemed prisoners and pray for them. But recently, a supposed redeemed man got out and killed a little girl for fun. I judged him and pray that he will never see the outside of a prison again. I wish he hadn't seen the outside of one after his first crime (similar to that--redeemed or not, someone who plans a crime to hurt someone as a game shouldn't get out. It's a slap to the first victim). I could say, "I won't judge him," but by letting something like his crime stand, we do no one any good. I pray for discernment for parole officers.

On the other hand, a man killed his wife. Now he is out and running the most successful prison ministry I know about. If I met him, I would treat him with respect, though domestic violence is terrible.

After reading about his wisdom in educating, housing and getting jobs for returning prisoners, I might elect him president. As a man of God, I'm sure he beats himself up everyday. We suffer the consequences of our acts.

WE are always to use discernment and judge truth - we would be fools not to.

Jason quote:
" And also, you show simplistic understanding of certain other religious systems and use certain stereotypes, not a good idea."

very interesting - Heaven & Hell is somewhat simplistic according to the Bible. I think it's a very good idea to easily distinguish the direction of certain stereotypes and religious systems. I've spent 20 years studying World religions and the cultures that absorb them - They can indeed be reduced to their simplest forms. In the End; either Jesus is God or he isn't.

WE are very certain that the Jesus of Mormonism is very contradictory to the Jesus of the Bible. That is quite simplistic - no reason to get overly complex about it.

Rod wrote: "Jason quote:
" And also, you show simplistic understanding of certain other religious systems and use certain stereotypes, not a good idea."

very interesting - Heaven & Hell is somewhat simplistic..."

What I meant wasn't boiling things down to the "them or us" standard of simplifying, but using broadstroke cliches such as "All Muslims blow theirselves up" or "All Christians are uneducated," something I learned in Public Speech class back in college- to never use broad statements like that, for they tend to show lesser education in theirselves by their use.
Though I agree with the simplification of either Jesus is God or isn't, that was the wrong train of thought I was going for, just remember that, okay?

The problem with your lack of broadstrokes Jason is that you will never find two people in any area to have total agreement. So technically we can barely call people Mormons or Muslims based on a core belief. People write their personal experiences into their theological understandings.

Stereotypes are always the place to start. That is what psychology and science depend on.

Jason quote:
"Though I agree with the simplification of either Jesus is God or isn't"

It's funny that this is now one of the main problems i'm experiencing when dealing with Christians. Should we stop generalizing that Christians think Jesus is God? I say NO!

Does the Bible contain generalizing and stereotyping within its pages? You bet it does. Go have a look!
I agree that we should be careful when generalizing...occasionally it does not help the conversation or research.
But we do need to generalize about religions or we would never get started.

For instance: Should we always tag on - Sunni Muslims or Shi'ite Muslims? OR moderate Muslims or Extremist Muslims? OF course there are practicing Muslims and Muslims by birth only. There are also Muslims who say the Hadiths are equal to the Quran and those that ignore the Hadiths altogether.
Sometimes we just have to simplify and say Muslims. :D

117 Jason: John the Baptist was not preaching the salvation plan all he was to be was a witness that Jesus received the Holy Ghost. God knew he was going to die that was why he was considered the greatest with such a short life.

Jesus (after you receive a new heart will baptize you with the Holy Ghost which is needful to be saved.) It is the only game in town. John couldn't do this so John saw the need for him to stop what he was doing. St Matthew 3:11

118 & 119 Pat; What I say I usually give book, chapter, and verse so it is not, Mickey's blasphamy but it's the word of God that you don't like.

120 Clyton: Lord's servant must be kind? St Matthew 23 hypocrites, 15 ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 blind guides. 17 Ye fools and blind, 25 For you make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 28 full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 33 generation of vipers.

124 Clayton: the plank was removed from my eye that is why I know that thousands of churches and religious organizations are wrong with thousnads in attendance.

125 Pat; It's OK for Paul to rant and you believe him but he came on his own his father was the devil. Isaiah 14:13-14

126 Rod: What you think is truth usually comes from what Paul said which is a lie.

127 128 We are writting about one of the other is going to spend an eturnity in hell but let us not get overly complex about it.

130 Rod: Jesus was the Son of God and not God. The trinity is quadruple with God creating the three, spirit, Jesus, and Holy Ghost. What is the difference between unsaved Christians, Muslims, Mormons, and Catholics? not much.

Wow Mickey - you are one of a kind. But that's not a good thing. :D