The Sword and Laser discussion

I started a few days early and have been making good progress, so I thought I'd kick off discussion of the initial chapters. I'm going to avoid anything spoilery, but just in case let's say anything from Chapters 1 to 6 can be discussed in this thread.

In general--I'm loving this book so far. It very much reminds me of Tigana and other early Guy Gavriel Kay: Grounded very much in a real time and place in our history that gives it a lot of verisimilitude, but with a number of minor yet intriguing fantastic tweaks. Those fantastic elements are generally more societal than supernatural thus far. Like Kay, her story is realistic and explores the darker aspects of human nature, but doesn't go in for the vulgarity and grittiness of George R. R. Martin. (I love GRRM and Joe Abercrombie, but I love this "cleaner" stuff as well.) The characters are very human and interesting in their flaws and strengths, and very empathetic. The prose is economical yet evocative.

The only other Bujold I've read before this was Diplomatic Immunity, one of the later volumes of the Vorkosigan Saga, first published the year after Chalion, and the difference is striking. Immunity's plot hits the ground running and doesn't let up for 300 pages. Though to Bujold's immense credit, even though this is probably not a good place to jump into the Vorkosigan Saga (almost every element of the book refers to a past installment), I never felt lost.

In contrast, Chalion teases out the plot, spending most of these first six chapters detailing the setting, getting to know the characters, hinting at the plot to follow, and setting up a couple of Chekhov's guns. By the time you get the plot revelation at the end of Chapter 6, you have an idea where the plot is headed, but technically it still hasn't really started. I've been eagerly pushing ahead, trying to see just where this plot is headed.

Great pick, Veronica!

Joe Informatico wrote: "Though to Bujold's immense credit, even though this is probably not a good place to jump into the Vorkosigan Saga (almost every element of the book refers to a past installment), I never felt lost. "

I've always found that to be a great strength of the Vorkosigan novels. When I first started reading them, I was picking them up piecemeal and read practically everything in the 'wrong' order - Barrayar before Shards of Honor, Mirror Dance before Brothers in Arms - and yet, I never felt either lost or info-dumped in any of them. It's one series where I don't think it's too important where you first jump in.


Anyway, sorry for the diversion. I've read The Curse of Chalion about three times previously, and am enjoying reading it again this month. I love the setting, and the leisurely pace of the opening chapters does a great deal to bring it to life.

I am loving this one. Was a little slow getting started I thought, but I have enjoyed seeing things fall into place. I think Caz is awesome.

Joe, I'm about 4 chapters in and had the same thought about it reminding me of Tigana or A Song For Arbonne by Guy Gavriel Kay. Might be more political intrigue than swashbuckling adventure but I could be wrong.
The main character with his aches and pains reminds me of me so seems a little bit more real than a lot of fantasy characters that you come across.
I'm quite enjoying it so far.

Joe, I'm glad you brought up Abercrombie, I'm really liking the book but I keep seeing Caz as Glokta.

I'm having a tough time envisioning him differently than Glokta, although he's less damaged and taller.

I think I'm going to have to see where the book goes, but I'm already seeing a lot of similarities with this and the First Law series (at least the court/Glokta side of it...not the Northman elements)

Joe Informatico wrote: "It very much reminds me of Tigana and other early Guy Gavriel Kay: Grounded very much in a real time and place in our history that gives it a lot of verisimilitude, but with a number of minor yet intriguing fantastic tweaks."

I am so glad you said that!! I am listening to the audiobook and the only other audiobook I have listened to was Tigana. So its not just me! I am loving it so far. I'm 3 chapters in but so for I am intrigued.

huh, i've not read Tigana but given how much I liked Chalion I might have to check it out.

Loving it so far. I can see the Joe Abercrombie comparisons.

Caz is definitely a flawed and damaged hero. Which makes him all the more interesting.

I'm 35% of the way in and can't wait to see how it ends. At this point I intend reading the sequel Paladin of Souls and possibly The Hallowed Hunt

So far I'm enjoying it as well.

I have 2 chapters read so far and i'm really liking it so far and getting a feel for the world already. I'm really making an effort to read all the sword picks as i tended to skip some before as i'm more of a sci-fi reader

Just getting started, and already enjoying it. Lots of little hints point to a character and a world with a lot of depth.

Didn't particularly care for the leisurely onset, but can appreciate how much it allows for the setting to take shape. Additionally don't particularly like when books start off in one place and then pick up and move (think Sanderson's Warbreaker), but again don't see how I'd do it differently in this case. Thirdly, I don't really see Caz as a flawed character, broken, yes, but not flawed in any meaningful way. He is a bit pervy, but overall has the classic traits (loyalty, a strong moral compass, humility) we are accustomed to seeing in fantasy heroes. My final issue is a bit spoilery so I'll omit it for now. Overall I think it's a good story with ok characters but what really helps it out is the writing. It is absolutely fantastically written. Have not read anything else she's written but would be inclined to just on the strength of her prose.

I'll chime in with I'm really enjoying this as well.

I have to agree with Ari on the writing. I feel the characters to be believable, and the writing is wonderful. I love the language that Bujold is using and how accurately it portrays and works with the setting. I'm currently in chapter 9 and I would have to say that the cannon has been loaded and is ready to explode. I also like how she allows for some mundane scenes to play out, with the engine of inevitability running quietly in the background. You can't help but feel it building.

After the interview that the Sword and Laser had with Ms. Bujold, I was intrigued enough to want to try one or two of her books. I'm glad this opportunity presented itself.

I like that the protagonist is older and experienced. He reminded a little of Glokta as well simply because both have fallen and are damaged, but I think Cazaril has had a much easier go of things.

Story is predictable so far, but not uninteresting. We'll see where it goes from here. I suspect their will be a lot of politics going forward.

I'm only five chapters in. I was debating a bit whether or not I should pick up this book to get back into the S&L reading (I've been busy for a long while now, so I've barely been reading, much to my dismay), since I've been chewing through ASOIAF and I'm currently struggling with A Dance of Dragons a bit - I basically worried adding another book that sounds very court-game-heavy would just turn into a tedious read.

To my delight, I find I need not have feared. So far, I enjoy Chalion's style. The abundance of names, places, titles/ranks, facts about the world etc etc never really feel too much like an info-dump to me, more like you're slowly but surely soaking things up as you go along, which I think is how it should be. There's something pleasantly light about the writing style, but at the same time it's rich with just the right details and backgrounds, making for an engaging, but not exhausting read. The plot is slow in being set up, but I feel like even in just the first 5 chapters, you're getting enough tidbits here and there, enough mysteries and small revelations (like the slowly unfolding mystery of ouch, what the hell happened to you, Caz?).

Speaking of, so far I find Caz rather charming. He's broken in body and to some extent in spirit, but keeps a sharp wit. Might be pervy, but I find his infatuation with the ladies he's tutoring charming so far, though I don't know if I might come to regret that take on it later on, of cours. To me, Caz feels very.... real, for lack of a better word. I like that so far, he refuses to partake in some of the games or rise to baits, not in open defiance, but with an air of quiet "eh, so what". I'm looking forward to learning more about him, how is story pans out, and learning more of his backstory honestly pained me during Chapter 5.

tl;dr summed up: Greatly enjoying the book so far, can't wait for the plot to kick off.

I'm at the beginning of the fourth chapter. I can imagine where some people see the similarity to Tigana - both books are on the more literaric side of fantasy. Though I find Tigana directer whereas Chalion has a little tendency to loose lots of words.
That is no wonder, because Chalion is a cycle which needs more breath with this style and Tigana is a standalone novel.
That being said, I like Tigana's brevity and Kay's prose much more. On the other hand, Cazaril's characterization draws me better in than any of Tigana's characters.
Cazaril's comparison to Glokta is interesting as well - Glokta wouldn't fit into this book with his harsh cynism. Cazaril is really the way to go, here.

The world building is perfect - I like the way the world is introduced by telling Cazaril's background story with all it's political drawings and wars.

Although am finding myself enjoying the book now (almost 3 quarter thru) I had a hard time not wanting to give up early, as I felt I didn't feel the story was going anywhere because it felt it took it's time to get to the main story arc. Of course it makes since due to being a series.

So to any reading all the positive remarks and not finding they agree I would say power on and maybe you will find more of what you are looking for.

Andreas wrote: "... That is no wonder, because Chalion is a cycle which needs more breath with this style and Tigana is a standalone novel...."

Chalion is a completely stand-alone novel. The other two books in the same world are absolutely not continuations of this story. I know other people said this up-thread but I still see people saying it's the start of a series and it's not. (Which is too bad because I loved Chalion and its characters and you don't really get to see them much again.)

Alan wrote: "Chalion is a completely stand-alone novel. The other two books in the same world are absolutely not continuations of this story. I know other people said this up-thread but I still see people saying it's the start of a series and it's not. "

From GR I got the impression that it's a series or at least that the other two books are a kind of sequel. I don't want to glimpse too far into those other two books. But I found out that the second one seems to follow Ista.

I'm not that sure if this first book is a stand-alone novel or a very loosely connected trilogy. At least it starts a fantasy world consisting of three volumes (maybe she'll write more?).

As far as I understood, Tigana isn't connected to any other book in that way.
That is why I think that Chalion should be allowed more breath than a "real" standalone / unconnected novel like Tigana.


Having read the first 100 pages, Cazaril is established as an instructor to Iselle and her companion Betriz and he has got problems with watching bathing girls :)

The whole household reminds me very much on the mediaeval Spanish royal household. Iselle is called to her half-brother Orico. If my theory is right, then Iselle would be Isabella of Castille and her half-brother would be "the impotent" Henry of Castille. I don't have enough material, yet, but I'll be following this track of historical investigation later on.

Of course, this book has nothing to do with the very catholic Spain. The metaphysics of Chalion with it's five manifestations of god is really interesting.

Andreas wrote: "I'm not that sure if this first book is a stand-alone novel or a very loosely connected trilogy. At least it starts a fantasy world consisting of three volumes (maybe she'll write more?).

Having just finished this (and not read either of the other two books), I'd say you can easily read it as stand alone, regardless of what happens in the other books.

Having read all three, absolutely you can treat this as a standalone. I recently picked Paladin of Souls (view spoiler)[, which follows Ista three years after the events of Chalion, (hide spoiler)] for a local book discussion group; while several expressed surprise that I didn't pick the first book, all thought it was fine to read it as a standalone. The Hallowed Hunt is in the Five Gods Universe but has no overlap otherwise.

I mean absolutely, keep reading, but Chalion has *closure*.

If there isn't a spoiler thread for the whole book, I think I'm going to start one.

I don't care what Goodreads says, these are standalone. The first two ARE related, but this isn't a series in the sense of being one large story split across volumes. The story that starts in Chalion ends in Chalion. Ista is the protagonist in Paladin and I think you're better off reading Chalion first, but the plots are not connected. The third book isn't related to the first two at all aside from apparently being in the same world.

incidentally, it's slightly rude to tell people who've read the book that you don't believe them and instead believe some random GR categorization.

Rick wrote: "incidentally, it's slightly rude to tell people who've read the book that you don't believe them and instead believe some random GR categorization."

Sorry, if anyone here is insulted by my argumentation. It surely wasn't meant to be.

We are here for initial impressions. And an initial impression it surely was with all the hints from GR and from wikipedia and other sources. If you don't allow me bring in arguments then you're welcomed to simply ignore my random ramblings.
The one thing that I got out of our talk here is that I won't expect a series but a coherent world spread over the three books.

That is where my initial argument (elaborated prose or brevity) started - it doesn't really matter if it's a series or a trilogy or books connected in a world.

Andreas wrote: "Sorry, if anyone here is insulted by my argumentation. It surely wasn't meant to be."

No problem, I certainly wasn't offended. But, thanks Rick for sticking up for me.

I was just trying to say earlier that if someone likes or doesn't like the pacing, the characterization, or whatever -- that's on the book and whether it's the book for you. It's not because it suffers from a "first book of a series problem" and all will be revealed later. Chalion stands or falls on its own. (Personally, I like this book a lot.)

I'm not saying anything concrete about the book itself in this thread because I've read it several times over the years and don't want to inadvertently spoil anything.

I'm enjoying the world and the characters so far, but I'm honestly having a bit of a hard time penetrating the language. This is my first Bujold, and her style is very dense and flowery. Which, in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but when combined with the names and the titles, I'm having a difficult time keeping track of the politics so far (and I'm someone who gobbles up the Song of Ice and Fire books like they're candy).

Now that the plot is moving a little (they've just arrived at the castle), I think the going will be a little easier, but I was a little disappointed by how off-putting the density of the character names and titles was. Ah, well. Onwards!

I did not like this book in the beginning and was just hoping I could power through it. The more I read it the more I like it

I am loving it so far. Not quite into chapter 6. I love the language and the leisurely pace of the book, so far. Cazaril is an interesting character in his background, but I think the author had only revealed part of it. We know what happened to him, maybe, but we do not yet know why or how it affects the plot.

Also, I love the synching between the audible and kindle versions of the book.

So far I'm loving this book.

I like the comparison's to Tigana / Guy Gavriel Kay. I absolutely love all the Guy Gavriel Kay books, and impatiently wait for him to write more books as soon as I'm finished with his most recent one. So far the Curse of Chalion is filling that same itch. I love Bujold's writing style, and the intro space to get to know the characters.

Funnily enough I had a hell of a time keeping track of names and titles in the Song of Ice and Fire, with this book though it just seems effortless. I wonder if the source language for the names makes any difference in how I pick them up / segregate them in my mind? (More names start with different letters of the alphabet?) Or maybe I just haven't hit enough names and titles yet...

I actually thought the names were why the slow-ish start was such a big advantage. I felt I had time to get to know the titles/names - or maybe I'm desensitized by the giant asoiaf name-steamrolling?

I agree with Ari to some extent. I think the character of Caz is the opposite of a flawed character. He really does nothing wrong. He is always right.

I liked this book a lot more in the beginning, but as it has progressed it feels very standard. You have your stock characters and plot threads.

I do agree the writing is much better than most other fantasy that takes up these same archetypes and plots and I have enjoyed the book overall.

I just do not think any of the characters are fully developed. They are all pretty simple and one sided.

Kristina wrote: "I am loving this one. Was a little slow getting started I thought, but I have enjoyed seeing things fall into place. I think Caz is awesome."

This is exactly how I feel about it. I am about six chapters in and finally starting to really love it. :)

I'm well into the book, actually quite near the end, don't worry, I'm not spoiling anything. I just want to say congratulations for picking this book. I've been trying for years to get Tom to pick some Vorkosigan or Veronica to pick some of Bujolds fantasy. She has long been my favorite author and I've been extremely frustrated that I could never get this Fantasy and SF book club to read the queen of both genres. Yay, loving it.

Matthew wrote: "I agree with Ari to some extent. I think the character of Caz is the opposite of a flawed character. He really does nothing wrong. He is always right.

I liked this book a lot more in the beginnin..."

I'm curious what stock archetype you feel Cazaril falls under?

I think Veronica mentioned he feels like a Gary Stu to her (the male version of a Mary Sue).

I feel Cazaril is more there more as an observer rather than anything else. The story doesn't really seem to be about him so much as it is about the other characters. He's the hook that gets us into the main story.

Definitely reminds me of that Guy Gavriel Kay/Morgan Llywelyn style of Historical Fantasy, where magic is around but it isn't a prominent part of the story.

Now that I've finished the book I take back my comparison to Guy Gavriel Kay. This book had the same opening feel, but as the book continued it lost that similarity for me as the story and characters seemed to simplify.

Kinda in a dilemma w/ this. I'm listening to the audiobook and I might have been too distracted during these early chapters. The story hasn't hooked onto me yet and even though I'm about chapter 11, I'm thinking about restarting it. Curious if I read this instead during the early chapters if I would have been w/ it more.

Not about the first six chapters, but answering the question about restarting... Very minor comment on early vs late book.

(view spoiler)[As I've said elsewhere, it doesn't hook me until much later. When I reread, which I definitely do, I mostly reread from the second half of the book. (Actually, after trying yet again to get through Swordspoint, this time for Vaginal Fantasy, I'm wondering if it's because I hate politics.) Lots of people think Chalion has a slow start; it bothers some but not others.

I wouldn't restart. You need the beginning for background, but IMO the book doesn't really get going until either halfway or three-fifths of the way. But BOY does it get going! (hide spoiler)]

Are you sure it's the story that hasn't hooked you, or might it be the confusion over similar sounding names that might have left you uninterested in the plot? Maybe a quick scan of a character list might get you into it? Just a thought :)

Wasn't entirely sure if it was the "slowness" of what many say the 1st half of this or my distractions. Could be a combination of both. Anyhoo, I restarted it as it is only 6 hours of listening time and going at 1.5x speed I'm only a few days set back. Just felt I was missing something and I don't want to write it off quite yet.

So far, I'm very much enjoying this book. It's slow, and doesn't make me want to read in large chunks, at least not yet, but I don't need it to; what I've read so far has been good and created a colourful picture of the world Caz lives in.

I disagree with the comparisons to Tigana. What I hated most about that book was that it took quite some time for it to provide us with a proper protagonist, and by the time what's his face turned up, I'd stopped caring. This book, in contrast, gave us such a clear image of the bedraggled peasant lookalike right from the beginning, that I was instantly able to step into his worn out shoes and look around at all the things he saw. Excellent beginning.

I'm now just waiting for the story to begin properly, and with it, I hope, a little more pace. But even if the story continues on much as it currently is, I think there is enough here to make it a good, if slow, read.

I just got through the first six chapters. I'm getting a bit of slow start, but I'm enjoying it.

I like that information is given incrementally, but at the same time I don't feel frustrated.

I suspected Caz wasn't ransomed because of court intrigue and that he was denying it to avoid anything to do with court life. But he revealed that to be true as soon as it was necessary for the plot (when he was talking to his friend).

Someone mentioned the swimming scene. That was the only part that was annoying.

When it's revealed at the end of six that he has to go to the court, I wasn't surprised, but more like it had the inevitability of a well revealed plot.

Rob wrote: "I like that the protagonist is older and experienced. He reminded a little of Glokta as well simply because both have fallen and are damaged, but I think Cazaril has had a much easier go of things...."

I saw some glokta in him, too.i also like the fact that he is no innocent 14 year old from a village in the middle of nowhere, but a grown man.
Anyway, i am almost half way through and i am , so far, enjoying the book.

I'm about half way through and am enjoying my first romp into Bujold's new world. Not sure if anyone else feels the same but I liked the slow build up of this story. It added an element of suspense that kept me turning pages to see what eventually would happen.

Looking forward to learning more of the outcome of Caz's actions.

I"m really enjoying this so far. It does have a very leisurely pace to it, so I can understand why a couple readers may be a little turned off to it. Only now is the main plot starting to come together some 90 something pages in, but it isn't a problem for me whatsoever. Maybe it's because the prose is so beautiful, and I really care about these characters to the point where I wouldn't mind spending time meandering around Valenda, being a fly on the wall during the lessons that Cazaril is giving the young girls, and generally just slowly unveiling this rich world. This is my first Bujold read (and 3rd fantasy book overall outside of the ASOIAF series) and it certainly wont be my last.