21st Century Literature discussion

This thread is for discussion of Part Two.

Early in part two, Mrs. Whiting summons Miles to come talk to her. The "surprise" for Miles is that Cindy Whiting is home. We get a closer look at the vicious cat, Timmy. The whole exchange between Miles and Mrs. Whiting seem to be a combination of Mrs. Whiting's dissection of Miles' character, with some discussion of whether Timmy should be "put down."

Does Mrs. Whiting like Miles? Is she really trying to provide him with good advice? Or is she "playing him like a fiddle," as Miles later observes? If so, to what purpose?

I couldn't help but compare Mrs. Whiting to some inverted version of Miss Havisham (from Great Expectations). Yes, there are many differences—foremost being that Miss Havisham sought revenge for being wronged in love whereas Mrs. Whiting was more the one doing the wronging—but there's also a similarity in that both are older woman attempting to break a younger man using their daughter as the instrument of destruction.

Daniel -- hold on to your story.

Lily wrote: "Daniel -- hold on to your story."

:)

I'm not sure Mrs. Whiting is trying to "break" Miles. It's more like she is stringing him along, keeping him pinned down with the promise of the Empire Grill someday, while in the meantime she seems to not want the Grill to be too successful. She seems to have mixed feelings about Miles, and I'm not sure what those feelings are.

Casceil wrote: "..I'm not sure what those feelings are...."

Oh, Casceil! Is it hard not to comment -- with a single word! :-o

It is amazing me, how much of this novel I've "forgotten," and how it comes back with this discussion.

Lily, I appreciate that you are avoiding spoilers. I read the book last month, and I'm in the process of rereading it, so I have some idea where you are coming from. But even on a second read, I still feel puzzled about just what Mrs. Whiting is thinking.

Part Two ends with another flashback. In this one, we see Miles learning to drive. I thought this section had some of the funniest scenes in the book. Returning to the question of how Mrs. Whiting feels about Miles, what does it say about their relationship that she offers to teach him to drive, and the way she teaches him to drive?

Another theme developed more in Part Two is why Miles feels so obligated to be nice to Cindy Whiting. In parallel with this, we see Tick try to help Josh. In both cases, the original impetus came from someone else. Miles' mother impressed on him that he should look out for Cindy. The principal asks Tick to be a friend to Josh. Do either Miles or Tick go above and beyond the call of duty in their efforts to help the respective outcasts?

Casceil wrote: "...Do either Miles or Tick go above and beyond the call of duty in their efforts to help the respective outcasts? ..."

I thought both stories brought the reader interesting challenges about the role and significance of boundaries in healthy relationships. I'm not sure how conscious of such a theme Russo was as he wrote, but in that small town environment, the stories reeked of appropriate boundary issues -- what are they, how are they enforced, when are they crossed, which infractions are ignored, which are punished and how.

I somehow doubt that Russo was thinking in terms of boundary issues, but maybe that is just because I have only recently become aware of the terminology. Do you think being raised Catholic in a small town is likely to lead a person to have trouble establishing appropriate boundaries?

Casceil wrote: "I somehow doubt that Russo was thinking in terms of boundary issues, but maybe that is just because I have only recently become aware of the terminology. Do you think being raised Catholic in a sm..."

No, personally I don't think it has a lot to do with being Catholic. It may have something to do with Christian ethics and being the Good Samaritan -- I'd have to think about that -- which is not my inclination at the moment. :-( But I think it has more to do with small town dynamics where there are assumptions about knowing each other that may or may not be valid and about little chance for long ago incidents to be forgotten or ignored. Cops, misdemeanors, bravado, domestic misfit, side of the tracks sensitivities, cars, petty quarrels can quietly simmer to suddenly erupt while other secrets may never see the light of day.

(I recall some scene so very uncomfortable with Miles' ex carrying on with Walter being his blustering self in the restaurant in Miles' presence. Or parking lot shuffles with a long-ago high school classmate.)

I think the parking lot scene you are remembering comes in part three, between Miles and Jimmy Minty. Let's discuss them over on the part three thread.

My apologies to all. I referred to John Voss as Josh earlier. I always was bad with names.

Casceil wrote: "I think the parking lot scene you are remembering comes in part three, between Miles and Jimmy Minty. Let's discuss them over on the part three thread...."

Sorry -- I really should stay out of this discussion until the end. I don't really remember the order of plot elements.

Casceil -- I will ask for another sentence or two about Mrs. Whiting teaching Miles to drive. I've forgotten something critical about that, although ... well, what I was about to say would be a spoiler if I'm not in the right section. (Maybe I ought to see if my copy is readily retrievable -- but I don't have either the time or the interest to reread, as much as I am enjoying this thread -- when others post. How many voted for E.F. anyway -- that's rhetorical, I can look, even though this board doesn't share who voted for which book.)

Mmm -- as I recall, the last time I looked at a poll for this board, it did not show who had voted for a book. But just now I could identify all nineteen who voted for Empire Falls ! Even one post each saying I went on vacation or my boss sent me to Timbuktu would add interest and be encouraging. (I didn't vote at all -- my TBR was toppling over.)

August is a slow month, and many of the people who voted for Empire Falls are people who don't comment much. Now next month, 43 people voted for Life after Life. Maybe that will be a "livelier" discussion.

Casceil wrote: "August is a slow month, and many of the people who voted for Empire Falls are people who don't comment much...."

I know it is naïve of me, but I do consider a vote to be a commitment or obligation or ... to make at least one contribution to a discussion if it occurs. And I understand completely that life gets in the way sometimes.

I've just finished Part II and, reading the comments above, I realise that many of the same questions came into my mind. I did feel that much of Miles's behaviour can be related to Catholic guilt. I found it interesting that, in one conversation with Fr Mark, where they're wondering what Max and old Fr Tom are talking about, Fr Mark mentions something to the effect that it's great that the 'old ways' of the priests (all that fire and brimstone, etc.) are gone. Miles admits (to himself) that he quite liked the old certainties. I think this is a real key to who Miles is. He likes the old certainties because everything was mapped out for you - there were no grey areas, things were simply 'wrong' or 'right', with no room for anything in between.

It's also interesting that Miles's mother's character and Max's character are such poles apart. Or are we just seeing Grace always through Miles's eyes? We know by know that she had an affair, which wouldn't have gone down well with the likes of Fr Tom at the time, and for such rigid Catholics at the time it would have been a big deal, yet Miles seems to have her on such a pedestal that she could do absolutely no wrong. Likewise, Max isn't all bad, but Miles sees him as such - so no grey areas for him - Max = bad; Grace = good. Bear in mind that I'm using the terms 'bad' and 'good' in the way I've described above - very simplistically.

I have to say a lot of Miles's reactions resonate with me. And as a child it's quite comforting to think there's a right and wrong way of behaving all the time and if you just follow the rules you're laughing... But normally at some stage the questions start coming. I'm wondering what happened with Miles that he's so determined to cling on to the childish way of looking at things? And is there more of Max in him than he's willing to admit? I reckon there is, but that he's buried that entire part of him as 'bad', preferring to try to emulate his 'good' mother (even subconsciously). I'm thinking how one of our first introductions to Miles is where he's imagining burying a hatchet in the Silver Fox's head... Now, there's a thought his father would have been proud of.

I'm also thinking a lot about the idea of what you inherit (personality-wise) from your parents/ancestors. This is a theme that seems to run through it - how much of your mother or father are 'in you'. It's the same with C.B. - he surprises himself by not being an artist and becoming quite a competent businessman, even going to the extent of continuing the family tradition of marrying the haridan. However, it's obvious that repeating the same behaviour didn't quite work out for him. Instead of trying to bury an axe in his wife's head, he went for his own.

Anyway, I think I've gone on enough... I've lots more to say and I hope that there are a few stragglers out there who are as late reading this one as me!

I'm enjoying your comments. This is the sort of book that stays with you for a while, and more comments put things in a different light. I had not seriously considered to what extent Miles showed traits inherited from Max.

Deirdre wrote: "...is there more of Max in him than he's willing to admit? ..."

Deirdre -- thanks for your comments! If Empire Falls were on my Kindle, you'd have me back searching. Since I read it pre-Kindle and am not even certain it is on my library shelves, I'll only say that I have a vague recollection that as much as Miles denies his father, to the point that I began to wonder who was his biological father, I do think Russo gets in a line or two or a sentence in a couple of places where Miles respects Max and his relationship to him, even as he wishes things had been different. Sort of in the "honor thy mother and thy father" tradition, even though, as many of the traditions teach, including at least some forms of martial arts, any real honor to self comes in honoring difficult parents; i.e., more so than in honoring "good" parents.