The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

And the long journey begins. This is the thread to post your observations and thoughts about chapter one. Officially, the discussion will last for a week, but the thread will remain open, so feel free to post and share after this week. Let the lively discussion begin. If you have highlighted the passages that you like, you are more than welcome to quote. Quotations are the driving force of our discussions.

We have read so much from the British canon in this group that the differences between Zola and his British counterparts are the first thing I noticed. Zola never hides anything that is called life behind the decorum of norms and conventions. Human life like any life is a cyclic process, and the cemetery in the opening pages encapsulates his vision. Human flesh turns into ashes and bones that are scattered everywhere and not necessarily respected by the community as a whole, but bodies do serve their purpose of natural fertilization.
I personally do not see much symbolism here. It is definitely a naturalistic take on our existence, but oh so often the spiritual and sacral overshadow the biological rhythms of our lives that the appeal to our basic biological cycle is a symbol per se.

We are introduced to two characters, Silvère and Miette, who are romantically involved, although I am not sure these are the right words to describe their relationship. The description of Miette is so sexually loaded that I had the feeling that the description of this very young lady – she is only thirteen years old – exuded pheromones. And even though it is a very sexual description, it is first and foremost the description that shows her as a fertile being, a woman that is and will be able to give birth to children. Miette and Silvère are very open about their relationship. He once calls her his wife, and I wonder whether it is a word play, a term of endearment, or an actual acknowledgment of their intimacy. It is not a secret that women in Europe from lower classes, especially peasants, had sexual experience prior to their official weddings. Granted, they usually married the same man they first had sex with. Because the message of their intimacy is very strong, I assume this could be the case. I am also curious how much Ernest Vizetelly had to leave out in this chapter to fit the propriety rules of Puritanical and Victorian ethos … If anyone in the group is reading a modern translation, please enlighten the others if it is technically possible.


And all this is on the verge of a revolution or a coup d'état … Miette is definitely a leading one in this couple, and her independent spirit trumps all the conventions and she is 'in the army now' … and a banner carrier.

I read this a few months ago, not knowing I would have an opportunity to discuss, and consequently have few underlines or notes. I can't tell you why I thought this useful at the time, but for this chapter, about Silvere, I underlined: "An honest lad he doubtless was, whose very ignorance had generated enthusiasm, whose manly heart was impelled by childish intellect, and who could show alike the submissiveness of a woman and the courage of a hero."

As we begin our reading of this writer famed as a Naturalist, I was struck by how Romantic (with a capital R) this chapter is. It takes place on a moonlit night among the ruins (Romantics liked ruins so much they sometimes built fake ones) and even a graveyard. The young couple seem like "noble savages", unlearned but pure of heart. I didn't get the impression that they were "spouses" already, but I'll look at it again, as you said, it would have been considered not a big deal. I am reading it in French so I can see what Zola wrote (although some nuances may escape me.) Everyday concerns like work and money are nonexistent in this magical moment. They don't even seem to mind spending hours in the cold.

Another Romantic element is the devotion to the cause, and the belief that our side must win since we are morally right. Young people who have never actually seen battle are only thinking of glory. The final scene with Miette carrying the flag is right out of Delacroix's "Liberty Leading the People", a totally Romantic painting.

Does anyone have links to historical background for this novel? My French history is very shaky.

All of this series takes place during the Second French Empire. This novel begins with the coup d'etat by Louis Napoleon, called Napoleon III. This wiki-link will give you some background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_F...

I can hardly express how much history of the decades-long French Revolution I've learned by reading Balzac and Zola. For me, learning history from fiction of the period is ever so much more fun than taking a class and reading non-fiction, but the internet has allowed me to take some non-fiction in small doses as well.

Larger image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...


Delacroix's Liberty Leading the People

The Louvre's description of that great work is here:
http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notice...

Painted 1830, Salon 1831. Our book was published 1871, so there is little doubt Zola was familiar with the picture.

Thanks for drawing this to our attention, Robin. The description compliments your comments.

Dagny wrote: "E. A. Vizetelly's phrase in question is: "You are my wife, to whom I have given my whole heart."

The French phrase reads: "Toi, tu es ma femme. Je t’ai donné tout mon cœur."

My French/English dictionary shows femme as "woman; wife; bride."
"

Toi, tu, Je t'ai are all the French familiar terms. I have seen translations refer to the "secnd person singular", as we don't have this connotation in English. Only people known quite well and intimately were addressed in the 2nd person singular, even within a family. Vous, the 2nd person plural, would be the form used for people known not at all or even those better known), perhaps, but with the more respectful formal connotation.

Dagny wrote: "...he was quite involved in the art scene of his day...."

Realizing that was what I was drawing on for my comment. Plus, this is Paris, with its very special relationships between artists of many types -- and often art and its people.

Dagny wrote: "I don't know how much of an art historian Zola was, but he was quite involved in the art scene of his day. He may have been known to the general public as an art critic prior to fame as a novelist "

Zola's best friend was the painter Paul Cezanne, so I suspect he was closely involved with art in general.

And that picture is as much an icon of France as Washington Crossing the Delaware is for the United States.

I am reading Brian Nelson's translation for Oxford World's Classics and so far find his work extremely well done (I do not have an opportunity to compare it to French original, however).

This version painted a very interesting picture of Miette, but I did not find it very sexually charged. I would describe her as "flowering", as in on the verge of opportunities brought by adulthood, but not "seductive". I was still aware of her being an innocent child besides having many physical traits and determination of a young woman. I think her relationship with Silvère did not go beyond walks at night, because of how aware Zola made us of the power of gossip in provincial city. It could be just my interpretation though. The young man does call Miette his wife, but I think it speaks of their determination to be together for the rest of their lives, rather then an indication of physical relationship. In a way they proclaim their love by stating that it is more serious than a young fling, but rather something that leads to a marriage. In the final scene, Silvère looks at his banner-baring woman and associates her with Republic and liberty themselves, while caught up in this passionate march for freedom. I think him connecting her with a sort of sainthood again speaks against a sexual relationship between the two. I'm not sure if it's only my translation, but at some point the couple's kisses are described by Zola as "fraternal". Would somebody comment on that? Is it in other translations too?

I also very much enjoyed the opening scene with the cemetery. I found it spoke volumes about the attitude of Zola's characters toward the old and offered an interesting commentary on society on the verge of political change in general.

Andrea wrote: " I'm not sure if it's only my translation, but at some point the couple's kisses are described by Zola as "fraternal". Would somebody comment on that? Is it in other translations too?"

Has it something to do with the revolutionary spirit and the slogan: "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, " ?

Has it something to do with the revolutionary spirit and the slogan: "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, " ? ..."

Interesting thought, Zulfiya, especially since Silvère refers to other men in the movement as his "brothers" on several occasions. Perhaps his nationalistic feelings spread to members of opposite sex too. Even though Miette is his lover, he might feel that since she is of the same low status, they are somehow connected in this brotherhood whose aim is to bring liberty to their class. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

I just looked at the French and it does stress the innocence, that translation above with "fraternal" is exactly what Zola says, in the sense of brotherly rather than passionate. In the revolutionary slogan Fraternite is "brotherhood".

Zola describes the voluptuousness of being together with their warm bodies under the cloak, embracing and kissing, but that seems to be it. When they think of the place where they spent time in the summer, it was just that was where they first kissed, in fact it says he kissed her on the cheeks. He refers several times to the fact that they will be married, so I think it is in that sense that he calls her his "femme" In French femme is either wife or woman. (They probably would have had more slang and local words to refer to their relationship than Zola uses, he has them speaking very standard French.)

Thanks, Lily, for posting the picture! One of the symbols of France is a woman representing LIberty, sometimes called "Marianne" with a "liberty bonnet". You see it on older French stamps. At least Miette gets to wear more clothes than Delacroix's goddess!

Andrea wrote: "...I also very much enjoyed the opening scene with the cemetery...."

Hmmm -- and cemeteries, too (like art), hold very special places in the ambiance of Paris, from the defunct charnel house with its Danse Macabre to the Catacombs to the "cemeteries of Paris, where you will find fantastic artwork in parklike settings, commemorating the final resting places for some of the world's most famous people."

Cimetière des Innocents: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Inn...

http://www.catacombes.paris.fr/en/cat...

http://www.pariscemeteries.com/

The reference to cemeteries caught my attention in part because of comments and interests of people I know who recently visited Paris, as well as from discussing versions of the "Danse Macabre" while reading The Magic Mountain.

From the beginning, Zola is setting us up with his images.

(For more links, see Msg 11? here: (http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1... Probably more than of interest. [g])

I was very struck by the cinematic quality of Zola's writing - especially his description of the battalions emerging from darkness into that band of moonlight, complete with the Marseillaise soundtrack.

I am interested in learning more about Miette's father. The public has no sympathy for him, and I wonder if the relationship between Miette and Silvere will have (or has already had) challenges because of her status as daughter of a murderer. I loved: "'That's a lie!' she muttered. 'My father might have killed someone, but he never stole anything.'"

Robin wrote: As we begin our reading of this writer famed as a Naturalist, I was struck by how Romantic (with a capital R) this chapter is.

I think this is Zola 'sending up' the Romantics Robin. There is a lot of satire in this novel, which is easily missed if you don't tune in to it. The more exaggerated the description, the more likely it is to be satirical.

Melissa wrote Does anyone have links to historical background for this novel?

The period Zola is covering for the family is post-Revolution and post the Second Empire in particular. Zola considered that the Revolution and its bloody aftermath enabled a breakdown in the class structure in France and therefore lower class families like the Rougon-Macquarts were able to better themselves, often at the expense of wealthier people and aristocrats who had been killed. He refers to the 'lower classes marching through the social system' after the fall of the 2nd Empire.

(If anyone has seen the musical Les Miserables, the portrayal of the publicans Monsieur and Madame Threnardier are a good example of the post-Revolution rise of two lower class people through unscrupulous behaviour which exploits others.)

In the macabre references to the graveyard and its skeletons, there is mention of the 'tumbril' which was a cart used to carry victims of the Revolution to the guillotine. I think the descriptions of decay here are an allusion to the breakdown of the social fabric during the Revolution. The danse macabre mentioned by Lily is relevant because portrayals of that medieval round dance show 'a dance headed by Death or a chain of alternating dead and live dancers. From the highest ranks of the mediaeval hierarchy (usually pope and emperor) descending to its lowest (beggar, peasant, and child), each mortal's hand is taken by a skeleton or an extremely decayed body.' Death is portrayed as an equaliser, just as the Revolution was a death of one kind of society and égalité was a revolutionary slogan appertaining to the society dedicated to Liberté, égalité, fraternité, which arose from it. The earliest recorded painting of the dance (1424–25) was in the cemetery of the Church of the Holy Innocents in Paris , which may have been known to Zola.

When we are introduced to the young man with a gun in the graveyard there is a reference to mulberry trees growing there and this is important because the mulberry tree has allegorical significance and is featured in the works of Ovid and in Shakespeare's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' in the tale of Pyramus and Thisbe. These two young lovers were forbidden to wed, so they arranged to meet secretly under a mulberry tree. They both perished under the tree, and their blood is said to have stained the white berries dark red. The red berries of the mulberry tree therefore carry the symbolism of star-crossed lovers and of the final union of death...

Kai wrote: "The public has no sympathy for him, and I wonder if the relationship between Miette and Silvere will have (or has already had) challenges because of her status as daughter of a murderer. I loved: "'That's a lie!' she muttered. 'My father might have killed someone, but he never stole anything.'"
"

It is definitely the zeitgeist of the revolutionary time. Murders and death in self-defence were pervasive while theft was a matter of honor or, to be more exact , dishonor.

Given that cinema had not been invented when Zola was writing, perhaps his readers would have been saying 'great illustrations'. Is anyone reading the Kindle edition by Delphi which contains the illustrations?

MadgeUK wrote: "...The earliest recorded painting of the dance (1424–25) was in the cemetery of the Church of the Holy Innocents in Paris , which may have been known to Zola...."

Madge -- thx for post @23. Lots of info embedded in it.

I believe @20 the link back to an earlier post on another board can lead to a PDF with a rather fascinating study of that dance macabre at CofHI. I haven't gone back and checked myself. If that doesn't do it, Google, a little work, and probably a search w/i the .edu domain can find it. I agree with Madge that Zola probably knew about the series of paintings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cha...

Trivia: A cat cemetery also opened in Paris in 1899 but is now a graveyard for other animals - lovely photos here:-

http://www.coolstuffinparis.com/cemet...

Plassans, the setting for this novel, is believed to be based on Zola's childhood home of Aix-en-Provence. You can see the proximity to Marseille.

Zola was living in Aix when the coup took place and we can easily imagine that much of this chapter is based on his memories of that place. There will be other novels in the series that take place in Plassans.

And Miette is based on a childhood sweetheart of his in Aix who was also 13 when they met and he fell in love for the first time at the age of 17, Silvere's age. Thirteen seems a young age to us for a couple to be 'courting' but it was fairly common in earlier times to be legally married at that age.

I loved the descriptions of the courting couples walking together inside a pelisse, a voluminous cloak or mantle worn over other garments. It sounded like a burkha and I wondered if Muslim couples secretly do the same?!

http://www.fashion-era.com/Coats_hist... Long Cloaks Versus Short Cloaks/Capes

Here is a translation of the stirring French national anthem, La Marsellaise which was being sung by the volunteer army as it passed Miette and Silvere on their walk:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8t5WB...

It has an interesting history:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marse...

Andrea wrote: "I also very much enjoyed the opening scene with the cemetery. I found it spoke volumes about the attitude of Zola's characters toward the old and offered an interesting commentary on society on the verge of political change in general...."

My own sense is that European cemeteries have a very different relationship to its people than American ones. Zola captures that sense of generations upon generations sense in this opening scene. It reinforces to me how different revolution must have been for the French than for Americans. Except for a few colonial and westward migration cemeteries or Indian burial sites, most U.S. cemeteries have probably not been "re-cycled." At Aire Saint-Mittre, Silvère and Miette encounter the old not only having been buried, but deliberately forgotten, except at the edges of memory or recollection or presence of the overlooked (tombstone -- now used as a seat), and yet, in some ways, having become part of the very earth.

It is also a question of the age of graveyards/cemeteries because those in Europe are often centuries old whereas they are comparatively new in the US. There is a limit to how many bodies a piece of ground can hold and not many graveyards/cemeteries in the US will have reached this, added to which there is far more land there which has not been built upon and which can be used to bury the dead.

Originally people were buried in graveyards within city walls which were under the auspices of the church/synagogue/mosque but in the 18-19C increases in population, outbreaks of infectious diseases and polluted water courses led to cemeteries being opened outside cities and under local government jurisdiction. Graveyards were then closed and many skeletons were exhumed from graveyards and moved into ossuaries or catacombs. This occurred in 18th century Paris when human remains were transferred from graveyards all over the city to the Catacombs of Paris, which were established in Roman-era limestone quarries. Zola is probably describing a situation where the change in law meant that the local graveyard was closed to new burials and bones were removed to a cemetery outside the town.

http://www.placesinfrance.com/catacom...

A video of a visit to the Catacombs:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyoE6M...

Some of our old graveyards are very beautiful and a haven for wildlife because they have remained relatively undisturbed for centuries. We do not have the equivalent of Catacombs in London, except for small private ones, because of the high water table of the Thames. There are, however, a group of Victorian Cemeteries called the Magnificent Seven because of their historical and ecological interest:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnific...

John Galsworthy's ashes were scattered in Highgate Cemetery, the most famous of the 7, and it would have been a likely resting place for the older Forsytes.

MadgeUK wrote: "John Galsworthy's ashes were scattered in Highgate Cemetery, the most famous of the 7, and it would have been a likely resting place for the older Forsytes...."

From the Wiki list of fictional references to Highgate Cemetery:

"Several of John Galsworthy's Forsyte Saga novels refer to Highgate Cemetery as the last resting place of the Forsytes; for example, Chapter XI, "The Last of the Forsytes," in To Let (1921)."

Yes, the first paragraph of your post is just that to which I intended to allude and to suggest a contrast between the American Revolution and the French Revolutions.

Thx for these references, Madge, especially the London 7, with which I was not familiar. (NYC has one that is particularly visible on the ride from Manhattan to LaGuardia airport. Two of NYC's most famous are relatively small ones in the heart of the financial district, Trinity and St. Paul. But, as a country, its military cemeteries are among the best known, e.g., Arlington outside D.C.)

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Plassans, the setting for this novel, is believed to be based on Zola's childhood home of Aix-en-Provence. You can see the proximity to Marseille.

Zola was living in Aix when the coup took place ..."

Thx for this, Elizabeth. My kids recently visited Marseille briefly, so it helped my sense of place.

I am reading the Vizetelly translation which was 'The first English translation published in 1886 and extensively revised (to meet Victorian standards of propriety and avoid prosecution for issuing an indecent publication) by Ernest Vizetelly in 1898, issued under the title The Fortune of the Rougons by Chatto and Windus. It is of reasonably poor quality, not helped by Vizetelly's boast that he had changed one in every three sentences in the course of his editing'!!

Can anyone reading a non-V translation tell me if the descriptions of Miette & Silvere 'courting' in first chapter are sexier than his? What were Zola's 'indecencies'? This is the Vizetelly translation:-

http://www.online-literature.com/emil...

MadgeUK wrote: "Can anyone reading a non-V translation tell me if the descriptions of Miette & Silvere 'courting' in first chapter are sexier than his? What were Zola's 'indecencies'? This is the Vizetelly translation:-

http://www.online-literature.com/emil... "

I know that some participants are reading either Nelson's translation or in French, so I am also curious about their description. It seemed to be quite sexually charged, but knowing that it is just Vizetelly's translation, I might be reading too deep between the lines:-) MadgeUK and I need your help!

It doesn't seem to be off from the French, which is definitely charged but nothing explicit

Apparently it was in England that Zola's work was considered obscene and this was even debated in the House of Commons:-

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002...

Great article, thanks!

As I am new here, let me begin with saying Hello! I once started L'Oeuvre in a French edition, but soon abandoned the project. Now is the time to give Zola another try. I usually do also some side reading, I'm thinking of a biography here.

* Madge @23 is correct, the disrespectful carting off the human remains from the cemetery must be a reference to the French Revolution (that is, the great revolution of 1789 - there would be a few more in the 19th century). Actually, I suspect that Zola's story of the Aire St. Mittre contains more references to recent French history, making it a kind of 'what went before'.

* The crowd in chapter 1 is planning to defend itself against the coup d'état of Louis Bonaparte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_c...). Comparing this event with the 1799 putsch that brought the great Napoleon to power, Marx produced the famous dictum "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, than as farce". But Louis was more than a joke. And he was supported not only by the army, but by all those who saw the first Napoleon as the saviour of the fatherland. A considerable part of the French population in fact.

* Robin @5 commented on the romantic atmosphere of this first chapter - these lines certainly contain dearly held memories of Zola's own youth. But there is something about Miette and Sylvère that feels strange. I don't think a sexual relation is implied, but there is a somewhat unpleasant erotic tension. And we would now probably frown on the age difference.

Wendel wrote: "As I am new here, let me begin with saying Hello! I once started L'Oeuvre in a French edition, but soon abandoned the project. Now is the time to give Zola another try. I usually do also some side ..."

Welcome to the Project, Wendel!

Hello and Welcome Wendel!