The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

Ronald wrote: "OSAMA THE GUN by Norman Spinrad.

The publishing history of this novel is interesting. It was originally published in France, but Spinrad was unable to find an English language publisher. Around ..."

That's one of the few Spinrad works I haven't read and it's been a while since I read his stuff. I'll recommend The Iron Dream which is an alternate history in which Hitler becomes. Science Fiction writer instead of becoming what we know him as. Bug Jack Barron was groundbreaking in its day but will probably seem pretty quaint now. I really liked his second book The Men in the Jungle which is about a cannibal society. Journals of the Plague Years is also quite good. I wrote a book review of it for a webzine a long time ago. If I can find it, I'll post it. I'm surprised I didn't already.

I'm going to look for Osama The Gun. It sounds like Classic Spinrad.

David wrote: "Ronald wrote: "OSAMA THE GUN by Norman Spinrad.

The publishing history of this novel is interesting. It was originally published in France, but Spinrad was unable to find an English language publ..."

I read Osama the Gun recently and would highly recommend it. It's really well observed. I'm definitely planning to read more Spinrad so I will have a look at those you recommend.

I highly recommend Spinrad's novel _Child of Fortune_. It is a bildungsroman set in a future, utopian society. Its average goodreads rating is over 4 stars. I cannot understand how this novel wasn't nominated for the Hugo Award. This novel would be a great read when we hit the 1980s.

Concerning _Osama The Gun_....Spinrad has a Caliphate short story "The Crashing of the Cloud" in the September 2015 issue of Analog, which is available in stores.

Ronald wrote: "I highly recommend Spinrad's novel _Child of Fortune_. It is a bildungsroman set in a future, utopian society. Its average goodreads rating is over 4 stars. I cannot understand how this novel w..."

Thanks Ronald I will check these out.

Norman Spinrad announced that his novella POLICE STATE will be published later this year. Spinrad put up a good size sample of the novella on scribd. It is a near future story about another hurricane hitting New Orleans, and its aftermath.

Spinrad put up a sample of another work, WELCOME TO YOUR DREAMTIME. The story is about a new art form: a device, which you place on your head, which will give you lucid dreams. Kind of like watching a movie in your dreams. As far as I know, the entire work has not been published in the Anglo-phone world.

Long samples of POLICE STATE and WELCOME TO YOUR DREAMTIME can be read here:
https://www.scribd.com/Norman%20Spinrad

I would have to say that Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson has a good chance of becoming a cyberpunk classic if it isn't one already. It makes all the top sci-fi lists that I saw. The Diamond Age: or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer also has a chance of becoming a nanopunk classic. Althought it is far less engaging, it is also on many lists.

Charles Stross' Accelerando might become a classic about the singularity. Likewise, Neptune's Brood, also by Stross, might become a classic about the macroecomics of space colonization without faster than light travel. It is smart, funny, and well thought out.

Paolo Bacigalupi's The Windup Girl, might become a classic about global warming and GMOs.

China Miéville's Embassytown might become a classic about aliens and language.

What is the definition of classic by the way?

Marc-André wrote: "...What is the definition of classic by the way?"

Good question. My wife & daughter were just making fun of me for considering "Evil Dead II" a classic.

Google says:
adjective
1. judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind. "a classic novel"
synonyms: definitive, authoritative; outstanding, first-rate, first-class, best, finest, excellent, superior...
2. remarkably and instructively typical.
"Hamlet is the classic example of a tragedy"
synonyms: typical, archetypal, quintessential, vintage;

noun
1. a work of art of recognized and established value.
"his books have become classics"
synonyms: definitive example, model, epitome, paradigm, exemplar
2. a school subject that involves the study of ancient Greek and Latin literature, philosophy, and history.

In the SF & Heroic Fantasy group a classic is any book written in or before 2000 that was influential in its genre.

Between them, the definitions cover a lot of territory, even "Evil Dead II".

Jim wrote: "Marc-André wrote: "...What is the definition of classic by the way?"

Good question. My wife & daughter were just making fun of me for considering "Evil Dead II" a classic.

*gasp* And they do not!?

Jim wrote: In the SF & Heroic Fantasy group a classic is any book written in or before 2000 that was influential in its genre. Being well known isn't a prerequisite, so classics can be unknown by the general public.

No, unfortunately they don't, although it beats me why. I thought I'd raised The Girl better than that, too. Sigh. It's tough being a parent. Expectations shattered.
;)

The group's definition of a classic "any book written in or before 2000 that was influential in its genre" doesn't say anything about its popularity or how well known it is. It simply says it was influential. It can achieve that end by influencing other, far better known books the way Gladiator did or by being well known in its own right the way Neuromancer is. In practice, we often nominate books that we like whether they were influential or not.

I noticed that the definition I quoted for the other group has changed somewhat or I misremembered it. It is now,
(A Classic novel would typically have been published prior to 2000 and be considered a popular, trailblazing or important work of science fiction or fantasy. Presumably, any actual "classic" is still in print!)

Jo wrote: "Pickle wrote: "Jo wrote: "I'd add The City and The City by China Mieville."

I have a love/hate thing with China's books... i ditched TC&TC early on as i was bored with it. I do plan to try re-read..."

China is a gifted writer but there is just too much fantasy in there for my taste. "The Iron Council" is simply a tremendous critique of capitalism.

Ayesha wrote: "Pickle wrote: "Ayesha wrote: "Adrian wrote: "Really? It just struck me as weird even by King's standards. Maybe I should look more closely."

It is a bit weird compared to some of his other works, ..."

Nice, a Dickensian reference.

King is one of the great descriptive writers of our time and owes much to H.P. Lovercraft's legacy.

David wrote: "Jim wrote: "Thanks, David. I hadn't realized Delany did that. I've never read much of his stuff, although The Einstein Intersection is one of my top 3 favorite books of all times.

[a..."

Great list of authors and their work in that Ten of the Weird.....

Valyssia wrote: "Buck wrote: "Atwood's MaddAddam trilogy has received a lot of notice. The Handmaid's Tale is superior, IMO."

Agreed. MaddAddam is yet another 'technology bad' dystopian series. They're kind of a d..."

She is simply one of the greatest critics of the right wing and capitalism out there today.

William Gibson's "Pattern Recognition" will definitely be a classic both literary and SF. It is one of his best written books and the first novel to tackle the impact of 9/11 on America and the world's psyche.

Although the sequels of the Bigend Trilogy are lesser works they are great near future SF and look at the mindset of the intelligence community in the Duyah era (Spook Country) and the financial forces that created the Great Recession (Zero History).

All of them speak to our life experience and will be indispensable for explaining our worldview to future generations.

Since I changed the folders, I moved this topic to 2000 -2020 where I think it fits best, although the first message mentions starting at 1990. Is that OK or should I move it to the 1980-1999 folder?

Sounds cool.

ah, yes. Be careful with your Delaney. Dhalgren had some sex, but Mad Man, Hogg, and Nest of Spiders go too far for me. Still like Neveryöna and a few others, and some of his essays.

Jo wrote: "Ronald wrote: "OSAMA THE GUN by Norman Spinrad..."

I'd like to read that one. I just read The People's Police. Even though he doesn't get all the details about Louisiana right, it was fun.

http://www.conceptualfiction.com/dune...

Be sure to look at the numerical essay on the right side.

I think The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell published in 1996 will be considered classic SF! If there is a sub-genre called literary SF, I would put this book in that category. It is the SF book I would recommend to people who say that they don’t like SF. I consider it “literary” because of the larger themes, character development, and the writing style. And, it’s not heavy on the science side.

Pam wrote: "I think The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell is the SF book I would recommend to people who say that they don’t like SF. ..."
Exactly my thoughts. So I gave it to my mom. She's chewing on it for more than half a year now. Since I told her several times what a magnificent book it is, I think she's afraid to tell me she disagrees. I think I let her chew some time longer. And than hand her Children of God.

Pam wrote: "I think The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell published in 1996 will be considered classic SF! If there is a sub-genre called literary SF, I would put this book in that category..."

I greatly enjoy that one, too. And I liked the sequel even more.

Somehow on this site I have rated one version of The Sparrow 3 stars and another version 4 stars. But I only read it once. I don't know how that happened and can't figure out how to fix it. Grrrrrr I must correct this or I won't be able to sleep!

[begin rant] I don't like the term "Literary SF" because that implies that SF normally isn't literary. It is probably true that most SF is trash, but most novels of any sort are trash. [end rant] Anyhow....

I somehow had the impression that H.G. Wells was trashy non-quality stuff. Until I actually read him. I just finished The War of the Worlds and it is quite worthy of its classic status.

Ed wrote: "[begin rant] I don't like the term "Literary SF" because that implies that SF normally isn't literary. It is probably true that most SF is trash, but most novels of any sort are trash. [end rant]"

Sturgeon's law: "Ninety percent of everything is crap."

Ed wrote: "Somehow on this site I have rated one version of The Sparrow 3 stars and another version 4 stars. But I only read it once. I don't know how that happened and can't figure out how to fix it. Grrrrrr I must correct this or I won't be able to sleep!"

Go to the book page on GR on a PC or laptop (don't think this works on cell phone app, not sure about tablet).

Click on the link "All Editions" (toward the bottom of the first page you will see several small book cover images and the "All Editions" link is directly below those).

You will see a page with several editions of the book. Two of them will be marked "Read" with your rating below. Click on the Title link of the one you would like to delete and you will find yourself on the main page for that version of the book.

Scroll down a bit and click the link "edit" to the right of "My Activity" - this will take you to your review page.

On the far right lower corner, click the link "Remove from my Books" - select yes when the box pops up and asks if you are sure.

Buck wrote: "Sturgeon's law: "Ninety percent of everything is crap."

Myers' law: "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yLa8...

Randy wrote: "click the link "Remove from my Books" ..."

Thanks. That worked. I was afraid it would remove both editions from my books, but it only removes one.

If it had removed both editions, I would have needed to go to the trouble of adding one of them again 😫 !

Randy wrote: "Myers' law: "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" "

Many of my ancestors are Scottish, so I'm only partly 💩 !

I haven't yet gotten up the courage to read this SF book in Scots language: But n Ben A-Go-Go. Maybe someday, with enough 🥃.