The Sword and Laser discussion

This was such a refreshing read. It was done in one, yet there's still more of the world to explore. It's a little dark, but not hopelessly so. It has a happy ending. Only a few people die. It's got a complex setting that stays in the background and doesn't overpower the story. It's relatively short.

I usually dread reading medieval fantasy because the books are so long and often leave no resolution at the end of a volume. Some of the newer fantasy is so dark and hopeless. I felt good when I finished this book. I felt so good that I immediately started listening to Paladin of Souls. I think I may like it even more.

Thank you Veronica & Tom for picking this novel. It's a perfect summer read.

I think part of why I liked this book was it was a nice break from the grimdark I've been reading lately (malazan/first law).

The main character is a bit too good for my liking, but that was OK. The politics and the slower pace of the action was a nice change for me.

It's nice to have a happily ever after, and a stand alone story where I don't feel I need to read another book (or 10) to get closure.

I do plan on checking out Paladin of Souls eventually though.

Sandi wrote: "This was such a refreshing read. It was done in one, yet there's still more of the world to explore. It's a little dark, but not hopelessly so. It has a happy ending. Only a few people die. It..."

I'm a little more than half way through Paladin of Souls and am throughly enjoying it. I also agree that it is a nice change from a number of recent fantasy books. Really glad this was a pick.

Sandi wrote: "This was such a refreshing read. It was done in one, yet there's still more of the world to explore. It's a little dark, but not hopelessly so. It has a happy ending. Only a few people die. It..."

Nicely put, I really enjoyed it as well.

I wasn't expecting

(view spoiler)[Caz to live. (hide spoiler)]


Must be "Ice and Fire" fatigue!

Thane wrote: "I wasn't expecting [spoilers removed]
Must be "Ice and Fire" fatigue!"

Totally! So surprising - I absolutely expected this to have a more tragic ending.

Rob wrote: "The main character is a bit too good for my liking..."

I don't think that is the right word.

He's very loyal, but I wouldn't say too good. "Good guys" usually don't sacrifice crows to summon death gods.

He's reasonable instead of dramatic. When he finds out one of the guards is likely working for the bad guy, he gets ticked off but merely makes a note of it and keeps eyes on him and the sort. No daring assassination or blood vendetta.

He does as he ought instead of what is simply flashy or exciting. He'd do evil if it would make things better, not worse, but neither does he go about blindly doing good. Too often I think protagonists get away with mischief that a normal person couldn't simply because it's an easy way to entertain the reader.

He doesn't back-stab or scheme because he doesn't want anything beyond getting to bed at a decent hour.

Active.

He wasn't very active is perhaps what you mean. I saw that mentioned in another thread. Good guys are often portrayed as reactive, acting only after some wrong was done and antiheroes and villains are seen as active, actively killing people for the hell of it or actively fulfilling their own motives.

Dustin wrote: ""Good guys" usually don't sacrifice crows to summon death gods."
Mayby I'm mislead but I think that was the classic distinction between lawful/neutral/chaotic good, right? Sacrificing crows to achieve good things would be chaotic good.

Dustin wrote: "He doesn't back-stab ..."
Oh yes, he tried to for a whole day but wasn't able to finish - that's why he went for the Bastard.

Andreas wrote: "Mayby I'm mislead but I think that was the classic distinction between lawful/neutral/chaotic good, right? Sacrificing crows to achieve good things would be chaotic good."

Yeah. I would definitely say he's Chaotic good. He wasn't doing it for his own gain, but to protect others out of his sense of what is right.

I stand by what I originally said. I think he's too good. Most people, even the good ones have more flaws than he did.

I don't consider sacrificing oneself with evil/forbidden magic as a flaw. If anything it's the opposite. For most people doing that would be going too far, and not because it's evil, but because they would die as a result.

Caz is not just "good." He's saintly ;)

Try to find a flaw in his character and it sure is hard to spot one; I grant you that but I think he's still interesting rather than just a male Mary Sue.

He has honor and a sense of guilt and shame but he completely lacks pride. He's self-effacing to the point of self-denying. It's what the curse required for its solution and it's an incredibly rare set of characteristics for a protagonist. He takes humility to absurd lengths and I wonder if it's that humility that bothers people more than whether he's too good to be real.

If that was your review Sandi I would like it.

Rob wrote: "I don't consider sacrificing oneself with evil/forbidden magic as a flaw. If anything it's the opposite. For most people doing that would be going too far, and not because it's evil, but because they would die as a result."

Perhaps my confusion is I don't relate flaws to whether a he is good or evil. Would having a gambling problem make him more 'evil'?

If it influenced those around him in a negative way, I would say so but to simply have the addiction isn't evil.

I see your point about sacrificing himself, but I see it as if he was a parent. Sacrificing yourself to save your child is more expected than good or evil. Its an easy sacrifice, easy physically at least, perhaps emotionally as well but that depends. It is different if you said you'd climb Everest barefoot to save someone.

He's basically given up living at that point I believe, that doesn't mean he wants to die but he isn't going out of his way too much either. If he doesn't, he's going to lose one of the few people he has left to care about, or was it both. I read it just before it was announced so I'm forgetting some bits.

So I don't consider that act good or evil. My point was more to do with the fact that heroes seem content to crawl into a fetal position at the thought of using 'evil' magic, even for a good reason.

This is going to be my last post on the subject though, because I think it's getting off the topic of the thread.

Dustin wrote: "My point was more to do with the fact that heroes seem content to crawl into a fetal position at the thought of using 'evil' magic, even for a good reason. "

Maybe if they are lawful good. In the past all heroes probably were lawful good.

I think many protagonists these days are Chaotic Neutral or even Chaotic Evil. The sort of anti-hero who just does what they want and that just so happens to result in saving the world.

I agree his sacrifice is more like that of a parent, but I still don't think his willingness to use "evil magic" automatically makes him evil.

The reality is they AREN'T his kids, though. Maybe he cares for her that way, but it's not the same thing. So in my opinion, it's not EXPECTED. Hell he's only known her a few months/years, it's not even like he raised her either.

His unwavering willingness to sacrifice himself for her is what makes him feel too "good" to me.

It's also been awhile and several books for me, so maybe I'm miss remembering here, but I don't recall him really struggling with if he should do it or not because he was worried about losing his own life.

As I had said: The main character is a bit too good for my liking, but that was OK.

You're free to disagree with that sentiment, but it's pretty irrelevant to if I found the book refreshing, which I did.

One wrinkle in the concept of Cazaril's willingness to sacrifice himself making him too 'perfect' is that, due to all the mental and physical anguish he's gone through, he genuinely doesn't value his life and continued existence very highly.

It's not so much that he's so unremittingly noble that he'll give up even his very life for another, as that he's so very damaged and hurt that he's lost most of his will to live, and only gradually regains his sense of self-worth as the story goes on - ironically, mostly after he's already set himself on an apparently fatal path.

I liked the book, too.
... And yes, i have to admit, that the happy ending brought tears if joy to my eyes.
In the story, everything befor joining iselle had gone wrong for cazaril: he was always part odf the loosing side in battles. So finally he succeededand his side came out victorious. i

I enjoyed this book. I'd never read anything by Bujold before, but I definitely will read more by her.

My only complaint is that, after such a long buildup with events moving at a slow, steady pace, the ending seemed rather abrupt.

But overall it was a great story. I like the way the early scenes played a dual role--they helped the reader get a sense of the world, and they prepared Cazaril for the role he would later play in breaking the curse.

Sandi wrote: "This was such a refreshing read. It was done in one, yet there's still more of the world to explore. It's a little dark, but not hopelessly so. It has a happy ending. Only a few people die. It..."

I love that by SWORD AND LASER standards, a book where "only a few people die" is considered a light, summer read.

Erik wrote: "I love that by SWORD AND LASER standards, a book where "only a few people die" is considered a light, summer read. ..."

That would explain why we haven't read any David Weber or John Ringo books then. But having said that, more than 'a few people' died in Leviathan Wakes.

I loved the book and couldn't help viewing Caz in the same way I would view a prophet or other "messenger from the gods with a quest" It walks the line between no free will and true free will very well and I can't wait to get my hands on the next book.

I think the words true neutral or neutral good fall into mind when I think about why Caz is doing anything. He is that middle ground...or at least that is how my brain processed it.

In the end I enjoyed it. At the beginning I thought I was going to hate it.

Really loved this book. Having a theology degree myself, I was very intrigued by the author's implementation of gods, sainthood and free will.

I also feel a very strong connection to the relationship between Caz and Betriz. Sometimes life does imitate art.

Great choice.

Additional comments: I do think things wrapped up a little too neatly, but that in only a small quibble. Even though I never doubted for a minute Caz was going to survive his tribulations, it is gratifying once in a while when the hero gets the girl.

I agree with some of the other commenters. I love ASOIAF, but it has trained me to be very frightful when things seem to be working out. Reading Curse of Chalion made me anxious because I was distrustful of the any feeling that things were going to turn out well. So when everything did, it just made my day. This was the perfect change of pace and I plan on recommending this book to friends and family that now secretly hate/love me for introducing them to game of thrones.

Bethany wrote: "I agree with some of the other commenters. I love ASOIAF, but it has trained me to be very frightful when things seem to be working out. Reading Curse of Chalion made me anxious because I was distr..."

That's exactly my point, Bethany. I spent the whole book thinking that many, if not all, my favorite characters were going to die. Heck, Caz should have died, but didn't. It was a great change of pace.

I did enjoy this book a lot as well. I'm definitely going to read the rest of the Chalion books as well.