The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The sizzling and raw drama is in full swing in the chapters we are discussing this week. Chapters 44-48 are under scrutiny.

Drama, drama, drama, and more drama … The literary climax in action! To be more exact, women are in action, and they are brave, desperate, dangerous, and impulsive. Susan Nipper challenges Mr. Dombey and quits, Mrs. Dombey challenges her spouse and quits, and even Florence quits the life of perpetual hope of parental love without hope to have one. It all starts with Susan, lovely, lively, sassy, and brave Susan, who is trying to tell Mr. Dombey the obvious, but she is a lightweight while he is a heavyweight, so she leaves with 'Pipchinses' in charge. At that moment, Florence's world still has the semblance of normalcy with Edith next to her, but Edith is unable to openly express her feelings and their time together is limited.
Infuriated Dombey chooses the next victim, and his ugly nature rears its head when he publicly disgraces and humiliates Edith. The level of alienation between the spouses is quite obvious in this scene: Edith and Dombey communicate with each other via Mr. Carker even when they are in the same room. After this scene of humiliation, a landslide of events turns into a maelstrom that no one is able to control in the novel. Edith tuns away with … Mr Carker, the Manager, whose ugly heart can not resist her beautiful charms. Personally, I find this predicament extremely satisfactory. Dombey trusted Mr. Carker the Devil implicitly, and now he deals with the fact that the person who was his confidant not only in his personal affairs but in his financial transactions, is the one who betrayed him, the one who turned out to be his personal Judas Iscariot.
I do feel sorry that such a strong and interesting character as Edith is most definitely doomed in the eyes of the Victorian society. On the other hand, her life did have that feeling of doom. She is a deeply tragic character, a woman who lost her child, a woman who was a beautiful item on a shelf, a lot in an auction sale. Florence was the only way she could have redeemed herself in her own eyes, but she was deprived of openly loving her and caring for her, so her life and her mission turned out to be fruitless. And let us be honest about it – this was the most effective way of hurting Dombey, and in this meaning, her ultimate sacrifice was successful. I find that she is similar to other strong feminine characters of the nineteenth century literary canon – Madame Bovary and Anna Karenina. I strongly believe that Edith Granger is one of the most memorable, complex, and believable characters Dickens ever created.
And Florence, poor Florence … She is so angelic that Dickens mythologizes her. First, he used the myth of a princess in the enchanted castle, and now she is a Sleeping Beauty, waiting for the kiss that will wake her up, and this prince is not Mr. Toots … or so we are led to believe.
Now the other question we, readers, are asked to ponder over and answer is Dombey and his destiny. Is he beoynd redemption? Is the whole story only told to punish him and expose his dark heart that is unable to love? Is he the character who is ultimately blind in his choices? Long ago, he lost his son, but now he is officially a 'womanless' and 'wifeless' man and a 'childless' father, … well, with the only exception of hhmmm ... Mrs. Pipchin. 'The Pipchinses' are in charge …

What despair and sadness clings to these chapters! Dickens gives us no relief from the heartache engendered in the narrative, and we are for now left with a sense of foreboding and desperation. This tone begins right away with Susan Nipper’s courageous and laudable confrontation of Dombey. Even though she knows that she will lose her place, she can no longer stand by and see Dombey’s disgraceful neglect of Florence. “‘My comfort is,’ said Susan, looking back at Mr. Dombey, ‘that I have told a piece of truth this day which ought to have been told long before and can’t be told too often or too plain…’” (chapter 44). I had greater respect for her during this scene than I have had for any of the other minor characters so far, and although Dombey unsurprisingly refuses to listen to her and sees it as an affront to his position, I had to laugh at his being unable to escape her until Mrs. Pipchin arrived.

This scene also lays the groundwork for Florence’s swiftly-approaching desolation and abandonment, in which Carker the Manager plays a leading role. Dickens offers us a glimpse beneath the veneer of obedience and subservience and we see a power-hungry monster who is even more frightening for his brute approach to business. He panders to Dombey only for what it benefits himself, and when Edith is last seen with him, it brings to mind this observation from two chapters earlier: “It began to be said, among these shrewd observers, that Jem Carker, of Dombey’s, was looking about him to see what he was worth; and that he was calling in his money at a good time, like the long-headed fellow that he was; and bets were even offered on the Stock Exchange that Jem was going to marry a rich widow” (chapter 46). Edith is no longer rich, so what relationship will exist between her and Carker, especially given her revulsion of him?

It was interesting when Carker told Edith that Dombey is “the slave of his own greatness, and goes yoked to his own triumphal car like a beast of burden, with no idea on earth but that it is behind him and is to be drawn on, over everything and through everything” (chapter 45). Carker does not even have the redeeming attribute of faithfulness to his employer; he acts inferior toward him and gives him false respect while actually reading him like a book and using his own weaknesses against him. This is nothing new, but to have it brought before us so bluntly was still surprising. Carker goes on to reveal that “Mr. Dombey has had to deal, in short, with none but submissive and dependent persons, who have bowed the knee, and bent the neck, before him. He has never known what it is to have angry pride and strong resentment opposed to him” (chapter 45). Again, not a revelation in itself, but to have Carker say this to Edith took me aback somewhat. I also wondered why he conveyed to Edith the warning about showing too much affection toward Florence, as a continued relationship between them would have led to a more immediate showdown, although in hindsight I suppose this was more hurtful to both Edith and Florence. The ultimate measure of Carker’s true character comes when he tells his brother that “There is not a man employed here, standing between myself and the lowest in place…who wouldn’t be glad at heart to see his master humbled: who does not hate him, secretly: who does not wish him evil rather than good: and who would not turn upon him, if he had the power and boldness. The nearer to his favour, the nearer to his insolence; the closer to him, the farther from him. That’s the creed here!” (chapter 46). He is planning Dombey’s downfall and means to triumph and exert superiority over him in the end. Another chilling scene is when Carker looks up at the window in which he once saw Florence and Diogenes: “‘Time was,’ he said, ‘when it was well to watch even your rising little star, and know in what quarter there were clouds, to shadow you if needful. But a planet has arisen, and you are lost in its light’” (chapter 46).

Speaking of Florence, we at last witness her breaking point. Up to now, her devotion toward her father has not wavered, but after Edith tells her that they can no longer be affectionate or spend time together, she begins to see her father as he really is. “Florence loved him still, but, by degrees, had come to love him rather as some dear one who had been, or who might have been, than as the hard reality before her eyes.” He “began to be a vague and dreamy idea to her” (chapter 47). Her disillusionment is brought crashing down upon her when Dombey goes so far as to strike her and cast her out. He has hit rock bottom and become even more despicable, and I cannot even garner a small shred of sympathy for him. He has been given multiple chances and warnings to change but has cast them all aside in favor of his pride and superiority. I noticed a correlation with “A Christmas Carol” here, especially at the beginning of chapter 47: “For only one night’s view of the pale phantoms rising from the scenes of our too-long neglect.” Sooner or later Dombey is going to have to account for his conduct, and we are beginning to see the collapse of his empire—and perhaps the rising of Carker’s? Carker has been shown here to be the true head of the business, and he seems to have dealt himself a winning deck, playing the cards of the Dombeys for what they are worth.

On a final note, it was interesting to see Mrs. Brown and Alice reappear again. Now we know that Rob has ties to her from his youth. The role that this mother and daughter, as well as that of Rob, remains to be fully known, but we have reached the novel’s crescendo, and Dickens seems to have everyone where he wants them to begin the denouement. The fact that the ending is not clear cut reveals how Dickens is maturing as a novelist, as we have noted, and how the plot is more thought out. Very interesting!

More feminism from Mr. Dickens!

First, Susan Nipper standing up to Dombey, protecting her young ward. Strong, resolute, even fierce. Not caring what happens to herself, knowing that she will most likely lose her job.

(Of course, to play devil's advocate, if she hadn't exited the scene, Florence wouldn't have been alone when Edith ran off with Carker, and that wouldn't have worked narrative-wise.)

And it also has a class message. The person in the lower class standing up to someone in the upper class. The lower class will always lose, but sometimes you have to do so to keep one's dignity, despite the consequences.

I don't think of Florence as being a weak character. I actually thought that leaving her father's home when she finally realizes that Dombey is a terrible man and father was a bold move. This is a very sheltered young woman. She's been kept from society by her father, and doesn't know how to navigate the world. But she does - she makes her way through the mean streets of London and arrives at her destination. I wouldn't nominate her for feminist of the year, but I still think that she is stronger than the Nell character or many of Dickens' previous female characters.

And loved the gentleness of the Captain. Very moving scenes when he was caring for Florence.

I don't understand Edith's actions. I can see her leaving Dombey, but I didn't see her leaving with Carker coming. And quite frankly, don't understand Carker. I thought he would try to usurp Dombey in the company. He was alreadu slowly taking a lot of control.

Zulfiya wrote: "Edith and Dombey communicate with each other via Mr. Carker even when they are in the same room."

It is interesting though that although Carker is being referred to as the mediator, they manage very well in fact to argue without him, as Edith reacts to what Dombey has to tell her directly. So even though especially Dombey makes it seem as if Carker was part of this conversation, he does not say anything until the end, but can sit back and listen (for my taste a little bit too) attentively.

“There was a heaviness in this young maiden’s exceedingly sharp black eyes that suggested the possibility of their sometimes being shut.” …… I like Susan. I could listen to her & Mrs Pipchin arguing for hours.

How malicious to blackmail Edith by threatening to punish Florence if they continue to be so close to each other.

Florence’s disillusionment makes sense to me, although I think that she is still aware that he is not a man without feelings and that she still has the desire for their relationship to work. It is understandable however that she feels very much rejected when he strikes her and withdraws from him (a reaction that I would have expected a long time ago), and stops making all these attempts to build up a relationship. I think a girl like Florence who has never received any encouragement from her father would always wish to be loved by him, but probably not be so proactive. This requires a lot of courage, and I haven’t been able to see where this courage would come from, as she can’t have developped much self-confidence in her childhood, so this seems more realistic to me.

Interesting that at this point, Carker openly recommends Dombey to get divorced – as he claims, because this is Dombey’s only possibility to preserve his position. So far, he had always talked about the “happy couple”, in order to hear the truth from them. He seems really frustrated when Dombey rejects this possibility.

Rob seems to be haunted by his back-street past. In his eyes, he now has a decent position with Carker. He has to obey Mrs Brown, as she knows his acquaintances from his “old” life and would be able to ruin his future.

The chapter about Captain Cuttle receiving Florence is heartwarming. He is one of these characters in Dickens’s novels that are not the most intelligent people but have a big heart. I think what proves this most is that he is taking care of her and is doing what he can to comfort her and make her feel at home, without even asking what happened or being curious to hear interesting news.

Lynnm wrote: "More feminism from Mr. Dickens!"

That's what I posted yesterday in the previous thread, saying that you would like this section. Chapter-wise and page-wise this novel is full of passages dedicated to women. Yes, we know there were occasional Nell pages and Kate pages, and other angelic character pages in his previous novels, but they were passive victims, submissive, subjugated, and never acting out of their social roles. The D&S women are different. They act on their own volition, challenge men, and behave out of their conventional comfort zone!

And yes, it is still Dickens when it comes to social messages: noble heart vs noble birth, love and forgiveness vs money and prosperity, poor but happy nests vs opulent but empty households. The message is crystal clear - money does not buy you happiness.

Sarah wrote: " He is planning Dombey’s downfall and means to triumph and exert superiority over him in the end."

These chapters are predominately about women, but they are also the most revealing about Carker. His true self is exposed, and his ugliness as a human being is openly displayed. He does not have a single redeeming quality; he is not even loyal to his employer. As we remember from earlier chapters, Carker plays all sorts of games well, according to Mr. Dombey, who obviously miscalculated his loyalty ...

An excellent post, Sarah, and a brilliant villain from Dickens

Melanie wrote: "“Rob seems to be haunted by his back-street past. In his eyes, he now has a decent position with Carker. He has to obey Mrs Brown, as she knows his acquaintances from his “old” life and would be able to ruin his future."

I sometimes wonder about Rob whether he will be that literary victim, a grey character who should die to save the day in the novel because he eventually chooses light, not darkness ... It is not a spoiler because I do not remember anything about Rob and his role in the novel.

I also like how Dickens uses his fringe characters to pull the plot strings in the novel. They do not fill the space in the novel, but actually are involved in the tapestry weaving.

I made only a couple of notes:

The dinner: Dombey, Edith, Carker, Florence on the eve of the anniversary. Stupid conversations of "tell her this" and "tell him that" directed at Carker as if Dombey and Edith couldn’t hear. But, wonder of wonders, Edith stood up to him. And further wonders, Carker told him off. Then who knows what went on between Carker and Edith, but the result was that Edith ran off with Carker. Maybe not ran off, we’ll see.

Edith’s speech at dinner would have had an audience standing and cheering – what triumphant music would play in that scene? (How about the first bars of Beethoven’s fifth when she points to Florence and then to Carker, and then maybe the Ode to Joy when she divests herself of her Dombey jewelry.)


Dombey struck his daughter and she ran off to the Midshipman. Fortunately the dog finds her and accompanies her, for he would have been abandoned/killed at Dombey’s. Toots shows up, and a mystery person. Must wait for the next installment to find out who this mystery person is. Ideas?

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Edith’s speech at dinner would have had an audience standing and cheering – what triumphant music would play in that scene? (How about the first bars of Beethoven’s fifth when she points to Florence and then to Carker, and then maybe the Ode to Joy when she divests herself of her Dombey jewelry.)"

Crescendo! Love the idea!

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Edith’s speech at dinner would have had an audience standing and cheering – what triumphant music would play in that scene? (How about the first bars of Beethoven’s fifth when she points to Florence and then to Carker, and then maybe the Ode to Joy when she divests herself of her Dombey jewelry.)"

I agree! And I was cheering her on as well!

And love this idea about the music ... :-)

Elizabeth, I have only finished these chapters just now and was also curious about this mysterious person. I have a feeling that it is Sol or Walter or someone who knows something about them, as it is mentioned that Cuttle was happy and had tears in his eyes and his face seemed completely changed when he came back. He would probably only show so much emotion for his closest friends.

Sarah wrote: "I had greater respect for her during this scene than I have had for any of the other minor characters so far, and although Dombey unsurprisingly refuses to listen to her and sees it as an affront to his position, I had to laugh at his being unable to escape her until Mrs. Pipchin arrived. ..."

I felt the same way and thought it quite interesting that Dombey again relies on a servant to solve his issues. He does not want to take care of these incidents themselves.

Susan was very honest and direct that day, not only in the encounter with Dombey, but also with Toots, when he was asking whether Florence could love him one day. Susan denies this. What an impact this must have on poor Toots.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "And further wonders, Carker told him off. Then who knows what went on between Carker and Edith, but the result was that Edith ran off with Carker. Maybe not ran off, we’ll see. ..."

This was something I did not quite understand and hope to be answered in some later chapters. We thought that Edith did not like Carker at all, rather hate him, and this from more or less their first encounter. So why would she "run off" with him? What happened during this period when Carker was Dombey's mediator? If Carker had not been so villainous, manipulative and sly from the beginning you could of course wonder whether a closer relationship between him and Edith could not have developed - a plot for a typical romance, but in this case that seems quite out of the question.

Then there were these rumours about Carker marrying a rich widow one day, is this a hint we should consider? However, Dombey seems to have fully recovered from his riding accident.

And then there is still the mystery of Carker's relationship to Alice and Mrs. Brown who are watching/ stalking him.
I was wondering whether he had once seduced young Alice, but being ambitious never actually wanted to marry her, as he was looking for a rich wife - a motive we can find in many novels of 19th century. After that Alice was a fallen woman and did something for which she got convicted.

Zulfiya wrote: "And let us be honest about it – this was the most effective way of hurting Dombey, and in this meaning, her ultimate sacrifice was successful. I find that she is similar to other strong feminine characters of the nineteenth century literary canon – Madame Bovary and Anna Karenina. I strongly believe that Edith Granger is one of the most memorable, complex, and believable characters Dickens ever created. ..."

The unhappy marriage and the keeping up the façade reminded me very much of Anna Karenina. Edith is a strong woman, who seems to be determined to risk all the riches for the hope of a little bit of happiness/ of avoiding this desperate state of unhappiness.
I hope that her destiny will actually find a better ending than Anna Karenina's, as the latter still suffered from the social consequences that her separation entailed.

Sarah wrote: "This is nothing new, but to have it brought before us so bluntly was still surprising. Carker goes on to reveal that “Mr. Dombey has had to deal, in short, with none but submissive and dependent persons, who have bowed the knee, and bent the neck, before him. He has never known what it is to have angry pride and strong resentment opposed to him” (chapter 45). ..."

Related to Dombey's character, it is not only the description of Carker in the scene you, Sarah, mentioned, but also his own words that show his expectancies:
" 'I am not accustomed to ask, Mrs Dombey,' he observed; 'I direct.' "

Hedi wrote: "Related to Dombey's character, it is not only the description of Carker in the scene you, Sarah, mentioned, but also his own words that show his expectancies:
" 'I am not accustomed to ask, Mrs Dombey,' he observed; 'I direct.' " "

Yes! However he doesn't even do that well! He seems to have very few skills, interpersonal or otherwise.

Sarah wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Related to Dombey's character, it is not only the description of Carker in the scene you, Sarah, mentioned, but also his own words that show his expectancies:
" 'I am not accustomed t..."

Yes, that is true. It just shows here that he expects people to do what he wants and that he does not kindly ask people what to do. He is more of a dictator who does not allow and is not used to opposition or rejection.
He is a leader by fear, lacking any type of emotional intelligence. ;-)

Hedi wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Related to Dombey's character, it is not only the description of Carker in the scene you, Sarah, mentioned, but also his own words that show his expectancies:
" 'I am no..."

Dombey the despot! ;-)

Hedi wrote: "This was something I did not quite understand and hope to be answered in some later chapters. We thought that Edith did not like Carker at all, rather hate him, and this from more or less their first encounter. So why would she "run off" with him? "

I don't understand it either. It came as a complete shock. I would say that he is blackmailing her, but she wouldn't care about that - she wants a divorce anyway.

Complete mystery...for the moment at least.

Hedi wrote: "This was something I did not quite understand and hope to be answered in some later chapters. We thought that Edith did not like Carker at all, rather hate him, and this from more or less their first encounter."

I think she was trying to hurt Dombey more; she had intuited some time ago that Carker was 'smitten' by her charms and decided to use it to wound Dombey for her humiliation. There is no way Dombey would be reputed as the same powerhouse in the eyes of ever-judging publicity after she ran away with his manager, or it might be a final blow by Dickens who wanted to punish his arrogant and cold Dombey, and Edith was sacrificed to destroy the Dombey we know...

P.S. There are numerous hints that Edith spent most of her evenings elsewhere, and we are never told how and where and with whom she spent her evenings. It might be Carker ...

Zulfiya wrote: "I think she was trying to hurt Dombey more; she had intuited some time ago that Carker was 'smitten' by her charms and decided to use it to wound Dombey for her humiliation. "

I think you are right...never even thought of it that way. Makes complete sense though.

I had not thought that way either. It does make sense on the one hand, on the other hand Edith is hopefully not getting in another unhappy relationship. I really thought she was so disgusted by Carker that she would not want to spend much time with him. Maybe she is only using him?! ...

I am out of town, and a phone is not the best gadget to type a lengthy post. I will open the post for the next section with an insignificant delay. The post will be for a discussion in less then 24 hours.

And I promise the denouement of the novel is surprising and sweet, but I think you have all figured it out:-)

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I made only a couple of notes:

The dinner: Dombey, Edith, Carker, Florence on the eve of the anniversary. Stupid conversations of "tell her this" and "tell him that" directed at Carker as if Dombe..."

Loved the soundtrack suggestions! I agree that Edith's dislike and distrust of Carker has been so vividly portrayed that I cannot believe she has gone off under his protection-her pride alone would prevent her from doing this as he has nothing to offer her. That would be truly out of the frying pan and into the fire.