The Sword and Laser discussion

Has anyone read anything else by Bester? I have The Stars My Destination on my shelf, which I hope to get to this month. Has anyone read that? Thoughts on his other works?

I've said this elsewhere, and it's been decades so I don't remember what stories they were, but I did read several of his short stories and liked them a whole lot.

I've read The Stars My Destination and found it to be a mildly interesting read, but it wasn't that enjoyable. The portions I wanted to know more about, Bester seemed to rush through, barely acknowledging. The sections I didn't care much for, Bester in turn delved deep. So for me, the whole thing had a syncopated rhythm, which is an odd sensation when reading.

I also, and I don't believe this is a spoiler, found the rape not only unnecessary for the story, but almost gratuitous in nature. If you read this book, you'll see that it's a very short scene and only inferred. There are no graphic details but a rape occurs. Why an editor didn't just snip it out is beyond me.

Casey wrote: "I've read The Stars My Destination and found it to be a mildly interesting read, but it wasn't that enjoyable. The portions I wanted to know more about, Bester seemed to rush through, barely ackno..."

That book is the reason I'm not reading this month's pick. I thought the rape scene was gratuitous and the way women were portrayed was sexist and demeaning even by Fifties standards. I thought it was even worse than Heinlein. At least Heinlein pretended to make women powerful even if they were ultimately just objects of a teen boy's wet dreams. In The Stars My Destination, Bester really comes off as a misogynist. It's one thing for a book from the era have ideas about women's roles, marriage and romance; it's completely another for it to portray them as objects as Bester does.

For the record, I rarely read sexism and racism into books. It has to be really, really blatant for me to even notice, much less comment.

I don't imagine it has to be read into most authors. It's difficult for even well-intentioned male (sometimes female) authors to completely remove sexism from their works, just because of the culture.

I have lower expectations for works before the 80's, if not lower standards, but it's disappointing to hear that it was so gratuitous.

The treatment and position of women in Stars Ny Destination is important to look at even if you do not find it enjoyable. SmS is, in part, an analysis of the effects of teleportation on society, What happens to women in such a society is an important data point. Refusing to read the book because of it is to refuse to learn and think. The better answer is to show why Bester is wrong or to fear the possibility of teleportation.

Douglas wrote: "The treatment and position of women in Stars Ny Destination is important to look at even if you do not find it enjoyable. SmS is, in part, an analysis of the effects of teleportation on society, Wh..."

Interesting... I don't seem to recall that the rape scene had anything to do with teleportation. I can go back and double-check this, but I don't believe I will discover some overlooked connection between these two things. If the correlation is fresh in your mind, please come back and share. I would be interested to see how the rape and teleportation interacted. As I recall, the rape was purely out of revenge, nothing more.

i found the The Computer Connection awful but loved The Stars My Destination and The Demolished Man

Casey wrote: "Douglas wrote: "The treatment and position of women in Stars Ny Destination is important to look at even if you do not find it enjoyable. SmS is, in part, an analysis of the effects of teleportatio..."
OK, I will spell out this point. With the introduction of teleportation the problem is that no location that can be publicly accessed is safe. Physical barriers are not usable anymore. So more complex method are employed. The society decided that female protection is important. You can agree with that choice or not. It would be interesting for women to answer what their opinion would be of a world where someone could just port in on them and attack. Would they want more protection or more freedom. Bester's society decides that it wants protection. So the women of this world, especially the rich, are secreted away. And not we have a woman who finds this intolerable and fights against it. Does that fact that she does it subrosa make it less of an opposition? But certainly this conflict between the choice of society and the personal desires of a women are a major conflict in the book. You may not like the direction this conflict takes, but it is a central issue of the book.

I respect your opinion and interpretation. But here's my problem. As I remember the narrative, the rape doesn't serve the role you have expressed. I think the concepts and effects of teleportation, like you mention, are vastly interesting as they relate to gender-interactivity. But Bester didn't explore this in his book. And while it may be a small point to look at and to draw conclusions about or around, the rape itself failed to do anything outside of allowing the main character to vent his anger. Can we examine this along with the teleportation and begin to make connections? Yes. But this book and its overall reach would have been just fine without the rape. To have such a monumental act relegated to so small a role (narratively speaking) is pointless. If Bester had made the rape more focal, then it might have been justified within the story. I wholeheartedly agree that this book faces the issue of barriers and the prospect of no more walls to protect those who "feel" they need protection. If the rape was intended to reinforce barriers/safety among men and women, it failed to do anything except come off as gratuitous (in my opinion).

But beyond this, I would need to go back and reread. I'm working from memory and so I must acknowledge that my recollection is not overly fresh. But I think I would remember if this rape were a driving engine to the overall theme, which Bester then was deliberately presenting to the reader.

Well you did force me to reread "The Stars My Destination". And I fear I find my original thinking still holds.

On the rape. Note that it is never, in fact, describe. It is only hinted at. In fact Neil Gaiman's introduction comments on this.
"Were it written now, its author would have shown us the rape, not implied it, just as we would have been permitted to watch the sex on the grass in the night after the Goufre Martel, before the sun came up, and she saw his face…

Bester, Alfred (2011-06-05). The Stars My Destination (Kindle Locations 145-147). iPicturebooks. Kindle Edition. "

But where does this rape fit in the narrative. Clearly it has some central purpose because it is only implied and so could be removed with little change in the text.

It is as I said, Bester even emphasizes it in his intro. The placing of women in seraglios is a critical feature of this new society and a central driver of the plot of the book. Without it Olivia would not have set up the activity of the Vorga or it would have been more visible to the corporation and her father and hence more controllable.

The rape gives Bester two things, both of which he wants for his plot and story.

First it shows the depravity of Gully Foyle at this point; the complete lack of control he really has and how deeply angry and powerless he is. If, as they say, rape is mostly about power then this rape is showing how Foyle, lacking power, tries to obtain its surrogate. Foyle, as we know, will never reach his goals if he remains as he is.

Second, it provides motivation for Robin's subsequent actions. He needs a reason for the suicide attempt, the reluctance to join the Circus, and the final betrayal of Foyle. The rape provides a clear motivation for her actions.

This is a small book and Bester is a master of this length. I would guess that he has pared this down to the minimum needed to generate the story and the mood he sought . Every thing in a book at this length, like in a good short story, is necessary. There is not room for fluff.

How about this, we agree to disagree. I'm not going to go back and reread that book unless I find myself needing secondary sources for a paper. Here's the problem as I see it. If it were so fundamental to the story, I should have been aware of it rather than opposing its inclusion. Now I'm not the smartest guy in the world, far from it, but I know my way around critical theory and the means of interpretation. Thus if you feel it is important to the plot, then fine. I just possess a different lens for this work than you.

And again, I must reiterate that this book is in my memory and as such, is subject to questionable clarity :)

I read The Stars My Destination as a kid in one sitting. I loved the beginning and the rest of the book kept my attention.

I thought The Stars my Destination was pretty good when I first read it at an early age but it did not seem as good many years later. But I suppose it needs to be evaluated in comparison to SF of its time for it to live up to its reputation. SF has evolved since then and it does not hold up that well compared to later works.

I think Demolished Man holds up better though it is not as exciting a story.