History in Vogue discussion

It's you who are telling me; opening my eyes to things I'd looked at so long that I'd ceased to see them.

Her inclusion amongst the Van der Luyden's party in honor of their cousin the Duke, has forced society to change their behavior toward Ellen for the time being - in public at least. Archer finds himself drawn to her beyond his own understanding, and her clear views of their society opening his eyes to his own views and how controlled he himself still is by their ideas. The time they spend together begins to cloud his idyllic hopes for his marriage to May. He finds himself desperately trying to hasten their marriage, and finding excuses not to tell her of his seeing Ellen. Suffocated the more he thinks of the reality their future will hold, he seeks out Ellen and follows her to country.

It was not the custom in New York drawing-rooms for a lady to get up and walk away from one gentleman in order to seek the company of another

Everything may be labelled—but everybody is not

Does no one want to know the truth here, Mr. Archer? The real loneliness is living among all these kind people who only ask one to pretend!

• Now that we've met Ellen, what is your opinion of her based on herself, rather than society's opinion. Can she live happily within the society she sought out as her savior, now she's seen the reality of it. Can she become what they expect her to be.

• What choice do you feel Ellen should have made in a society that wouldn't recognize divorce for another twenty years.

* It would be Caroline Astor's - known as "the Mrs Astor" - decision to stand beside her daughter, Charlotte, after her divorce, that would make divorce acceptable in society

• What is the significance of the scene within the play that Archer and Ellen speak during, with its lovers parting in a heart breaking silence

The affair, in short, had been of the kind that most of the young men of his age had been through, and emerged from with calm consciences and an undisturbed belief in the abysmal distinction between the women one loved and respected and those one enjoyed...

• What does this statement really say about society behind closed doors. Archer's affair was with a member of their own circle, yet because of their "discretion", neither were ruined. Is there a difference of standard between men and women, or is the real difference between married women and unmarried girls.

Look at the career of the honest man in American politics! They don't want us

• How true is this statement still today.

• Gentlemen were allowed to go sit at the office for the appearance of a "profession" - also so their own circle's issues could be dealt with quietly - but not to practice the law, one of the only professions they were allowed the illusion of, for an income. And a gentlemen could not enter politics. We often speak of the restrictions placed on women, but what does this, as well as their social expectations, say about the restrictions placed on men in society.

• Now that we've met Ellen, what is your opinion of her based on herself, rather than society's opinion. Can she live happily within the society she sought out as her savior, now she's seen the reality of it. Can she become what they expect her to be.

I like her, I think. As the story goes on I can tell she's genuine but I don't think she can live happily within the restrictions of Old New York society. She's too independent and used to more freedom than they grant their women in NY. In NY they want their women to be like china dolls - at least appear that way. Ellen can never become one of them. Her personality is distinctly opposite of Janey's. Janey has turned into a clone of her mother after years of spinsterhood.

• What choice do you feel Ellen should have made in a society that wouldn't recognize divorce for another twenty years.

It's tough to say. If she really wanted tranquility, then she made the right choice. I think the longer she spends in NY, she'll realize she's not one of them and she should have gone through with the divorce. It would have caused a scandal at first but isn't that why Archer wanted to announce his engagement to May, so two families could stand by her. They can't have it both ways. Of course then we wouldn't have Alva Vanderbilt taking all the credit for liberating women. Or probably she would have taken the credit anyway! Last time I called on the Astors at their summer "cottage" in Newport, the young lady who showed us around (a sister-in-law to one of the daughters) mentioned some rumors about "Charlotte the Harlot." I don't know how accurate that is. The theater company who ran the museum did a great job bringing the world of the Astors to life but I can't tell how much was made up.

• What is the significance of the scene within the play that Archer and Ellen speak during, with its lovers parting in a heart breaking silence

It obviously foreshadows where Ellen and Archer's relationship. More on that in Chapter 22.

The affair, in short, had been of the kind that most of the young men of his age had been through, and emerged from with calm consciences and an undisturbed belief in the abysmal distinction between the women one loved and respected and those one enjoyed...

• What does this statement really say about society behind closed doors. Archer's affair was with a member of their own circle, yet because of their "discretion", neither were ruined. Is there a difference of standard between men and women, or is the real difference between married women and unmarried girls.

The standard was Be discreet. It sounds, from the gossip I've read, that men often had affairs with women from their own class or women of ill repute. The only other Wharton novel I've read is The Bucaneers, which is a very thinly disguised portrait of people Edith Wharton knew in Newport and New York. Whether women could have affairs or not depended on how tolerant their husbands were. Judging from comments about Ellen in this novel though, it was still scandalous for a woman to have an affair whether she was married or not. Unmarried girls, of course, were supposed to be ignorant of all that sort of thing.

• Gentlemen were allowed to go sit at the office for the appearance of a "profession" - also so their own circle's issues could be dealt with quietly - but not to practice the law, one of the only professions they were allowed the illusion of, for an income. And a gentlemen could not enter politics. We often speak of the restrictions placed on women, but what does this, as well as their social expectations, say about the restrictions placed on men in society.

There was also a definite code of behavior for men. A fellow MA candidate wanted to write her thesis on Victorian masculinity. I chose to take the non-thesis option and wrote a major research paper on the American South. In that class we read an article that discussed southern young men from elite families and the expectations that were placed on them, especially when far from home. The man was the public face of the family and had a role to play. The difference for men was that the laws favored them and the code of conduct also favored them. Women were dependents of men their whole lives and bound by a certain set of restrictions decided on by men and reinforced by other women.

QNPoohBear wrote: "• Of course then we wouldn't have Alva Vanderbilt taking all the credit for liberating women. Or probably she would have taken the credit anyway! Last time I called on the Astors at their summer "cottage" in Newport, the young lady who showed us around (a sister-in-law to one of the daughters) mentioned some rumors about "Charlotte the Harlot."..."

I have heard "Charlotte the Harlot". I'm not certain if Alva or Charlotte divorced first, but Alva wasn't exactly in a position to set precedents despite all her claims. Caroline had no love for the Vanderbilts, and no one did anything until Caroline said they could. It wasn't long before that, that Caroline had finally condescended for the first time to visit Alva and her girls - after Alva basically, and publicly, forced her to. Not to mention Caroline wanted control over the influence that the Vanderbilt's money was beginning to have in New York. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. ;) sigh... Is it bad that I'm sitting here talking about them like they're still alive and just down the street.

I like Downton Abbey as much as the next person - less in the last couple of seasons, but moving on... But let's not pretend Julian Fellowes didn't rip off Edith Wharton, and just throw in the Astors and Vanderbilts for the heck of it. Cora is The Bucaneers, Matthew was Seldon from House of Mirth, and Violet and Cora's mother are Caroline Astor and Alva Vanderbilt. The list goes on...

Charlotte's divorce was before Alva's. I heard the gossip regarding the Vanderbilts' party and how the Astors' invitation got "lost in the mail" until Mrs. Astor agreed to call on Alva. The Beechwood tours were always fantastic. While not down the street, the Gilded Age society people are alive and well through their grand summer cottages about an hour or two down the state (depending on method of travel). As an archivist I also have access to diaries of the period that turn mundane "went here, did this" into fascinating history.

Julian Fellows ripped off a lot of other plots but the first season was fun.

I hate that I got so far behind on this, but life has been happening this summer...I'm hoping to be more consistent after we get moved next month. I'm so enjoying this book when I have the time to read!

But I digress...

I can't help but like Ellen, and sympathize with her lonely situation. I don't believe Ellen will ultimately be happy with NY's society, as it is terribly restrictive, and she misses the culture of Europe, but she will not have much choice but to go on as she is... She is a rather different bird, and I don't think that she will easily conform to the conventions of society.

The divorce situation is somewhat two-fold...I certainly can sympathize with Ellen's desire to be free, but truthfully, the publicity of the divorce would definitely rock her world. She would find that the people who have just begun to accept her (at least outwardly) would quickly turn on her, possibly leaving her even more lonely and outcast.

The scene in the play very cleverly conveys underlying feelings that both seem to be having, but have not voiced just yet. It seems to me that Archer is enchanted by Ellen's unconventional ways and the excitement elicited by the possibility of being with someone like her - the very things he looks for in May and tries to coax out of her, only to be disappointed by the result.

The situation involving affairs within society is quite hypocritical to me - the outcome all depends on the discretion taken and who you are in the rankings of society. Of course, men are widely excused, and sometimes married women, depending on how discreet one is. Unmarried women would create quite the scandal, as they should be completely innocent for their husbands, whom likely were not innocent in the least. I like the way QNPoohBear put it!

I find it rather funny the restrictions society placed on what was considered to be "gentlemanly" lines of work, and the fact that in general, work was not the ideal occupation for the genteel. Ha! Seems to me everyone would be painfully bored in life at some point. I'm seeing why Archer wants so badly to buck the system, yet lacks the courage to do so. Everything they do is so deeply ingrained within them by the confines of their society, which is also evident in May and her mother, as well as Archer's mother and Janey.