The Sword and Laser discussion

So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most often, the plot revolves around discovering and exposing this flaw and overthrowing the society. Personally I wish more authors would be brave enough to suggest potential roadmaps from an unjust society to a just one, but that's not my real question here.

But what do you call it when you've got an unplanned, organically grown society with a glaring flaw? The most common type is a society where things are actually pretty fair and good for most folks, but there's some sort of underclass for whom things are really quite awful. That's true in Earth Girl, the YA novel I've just started, and in A Calculated Life, which is interesting in that there are kind of two distinct underclasses: the tightly-defined lives of the artificial people and another group whose identity is a mild spoiler. I've seen it a number of times before.

One could argue that the United States government falls into this category, because classism and racism cause wide, wide gulfs in quality of living, although I don't want to go too deep into that and provoke an argument.

Unplanned dystopia? Seedy underbelly? I don't have a term for this.

I think dystopia still works fine for what you're describing. Dystopias don't necessarily need to be planned, I think. I do think they need to be functioning societies though, even if they are filled with inequality and oppression. A society that works for absolutely nobody, like in a post-apocalypse for example, can't really be called a society at all.

As a side note I've been meaning to read A Calculated Life for a while, I love the concept from the description.

Brendan wrote: "I think dystopia still works fine for what you're describing. Dystopias don't necessarily need to be planned, I think. I do think they need to be functioning societies though, even if they are fill..."

I love love loved it, but most of the action takes place in the mind of the point of view character, which is this amazing churning thing.

Joanna wrote: "... But what do you call it when you've got an unplanned, organically grown society with a glaring flaw? ..."

I can't say I love this term but I think those used to be described as "cautionary tales." They are some of my favorite types of science fiction - books like Stand on Zanzibar or The Diamond Age: or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer stay with me longer than space battles.

I highly recommend a short story by Ursula Le Guin called "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas." It describes a society just like you describe, where it is great for most everyone. Another one, which is probably the most obvious, would be Lois Lowry's "The Giver."

I think you are right though, when you imply that arguments could be drawn from every form of government, past and present, that fall into the definition of dystopian society. The most glaring example would be Nazi Germany, but you wouldn't have to go too far into America's past to find similar cases (i.e. the trail of tears, or the forced relocation of Japanese-Americans during WWII). The allure of dystopian settings is that they mirror "what was" or "what could be."

G.R. wrote: "I highly recommend a short story by Ursula Le Guin called "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas." It describes a society just like you describe, where it is great for most everyone. Another one, whic..."

I've read Omelas. I'd argue that it's more of a thought experiment than a narrative. Or a sermon, kind of. It doesn't really have a plot. That doesn't mean that it is not powerful.

I'd argue that The Giver is actually a planned dystopia. It fits the description that people thought they could build a perfect society if they could just remove X, where in The Giver, X is (view spoiler)[memories of time before, and colors, and certain undesirables (hide spoiler)].

Joanna wrote: "So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most often, the plot revolves around d..."

I have seen Dickinson's Dystopian used before for the dystopian that appears out of capitalism/freemarket. It's also commonly called ____punk, with the ____ corresponding to what kind of setting you are in.

Aaron wrote: "Joanna wrote: "So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most often, the plot re..."

So, Earth Girl might be space colonization punk?

Joanna wrote: "So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most often, the plot revolves around d..."

Straight away I think of the human sacrifices of the Aztecs, many days a week the blood ran in torrents, like the Terror in Republican France, except routine.

You've got Utopia, Dystopia, being the opposite, why not Psych-a-topia.

Incidentally, I just finished Earth Girl and I think it's the best scifi YA novel I've read in years.

Joanna wrote: "Aaron wrote: "Joanna wrote: "So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most ofte..."

YA Space Colonization Punk sure why not.

Reading the synopsis and reviews this actually sounds pretty good, why the heck does it only have a 3.75? YA normally has overinflated scores.

Aaron wrote: "...why the heck does it only have a 3.75? YA normally has overinflated scores."

My guess? The narrator/POV character starts out bitter and abrasive. The first chapter is the weakest. She gets better when you get to see her doing what she loves. But I could see people only reading the first bit and going "ugh, no".

Joanna wrote: "So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most often, the plot revolves around d..."

An unplanned, organically grown society with a flaw? Sounds like basic human culture to me...aside from a few cases such as the Spartans, virtually every human culture in human history has been unplanned and organically grown.

Or am I missing the point of the question?

Tom wrote: "Joanna wrote: "So I'm pretty set in my own mind on what "dystopia" means. It's some sort of planned society, often set up hoping to be perfect, but with some glaring flaw. Most often, the plot re..."

I meant, like a glaring obvious flaw. Like, no one planned a utopia based on a flawed premise, but it kind of grew into a dystopia all on its own. There's a major underclass or injustice.