Reading the Chunksters discussion

Although the section starts with Philip failing his examination, he doesn't care, or at least persuades himself that he doesn't care.

But for the reader, or at least for me as a reader, there is suddenly hope for Philip as Mildred tells him she is to marry Miller. For Philip, this is
"wretchedness," but for the reader, or at least this reader, it's a matter of whew! He's free of that weird and disabling relationship at last.

And Hayward and Lawson come back into his life, renewing his intellectual and artistic interest.

And then he meets an apparently very nice and stable (emotionally and intellectually if not financially stable) and sensible woman, Norah, who is intelligent and happy and everything Mildred isn't. Philip doesn't love her, but he enters into a very enjoyable affair with her. He also straightens out his study life and passes his examinations.

All seems to be going well, though there is one disquieting element. In the Mildred relationship, he loved Mildred but wasn't loved in return. In the Norah relationship, he doesn't love her but is loved by her. We should have been warned by this, but we were so happy to be rid of Mildred that we sloughed over the potential problem.

We have in the next few chapters a few interesting elements. We have some lengthy philosophical discussions which we should discuss in a later post but which seem to show Philip's intellect maturing. We have the discovery of the tavern in Beak Street. We have his illness and the close relationship with Griffiths developing.

Things seem to be going nothing but well for Philip.

But we rejoiced too soon. He arrives home one day to find Mildred there. A distraught Mildred who is pregnant but not married -- Miller couldn't marry her because, unknown to her, he has a wife who very much wants him back and wants him rid of his mistress.

And Philip falls right back into what I consider the Mildred trap, giving her money he can't afford to give, finding her lodging, helping her have the baby she doesn't want, and sending her to the seashore to recuperate.

And then there is the awful break-up with Norah, which breaks our hearts because we know he's making a huge mistake, hurting the woman he shouldn't hurt for the sake of the woman he should have nothing to do with.

But it's easy to run another person's life from the outside, isn't it? This book was chosen as a "emotional powerhouse," and it's living up to that promise in a massive way.

Could Philip mess up his life any more than he already is? Will he ever find happiness? Will he ever simply grow up?

Hooray I've finally caught up! All I can think at this moment is how I can hardly bear to keep reading and seeing how the Norah/Mildred saga unfolds. I'm so sad for Norah when she ends up apologising to Phillip, despite him being the one who's treated he pretty badly. When she comes to his house and he is so cold and blunt with her, it's heartbreaking. Especially when we (and he) can see how much better suited they are.
I really want to hit him around the head when he discovers Mildred reading one of Norah's books doesn't that just sum her up?!

There has been enough foreshadowing about Philip praising Mitchell Griffiths to the skies that, coupled with Mildred's self-involved nature, I too am almost reluctant to take on the next section... because dollars to donuts Mildred falls for Mitchell Griffiths.

Emil Coue, a French psychologist, introduced what he called The Law of Reversed Effect (or Effort). It basically states that the behavior we most try to avoid, or that we hate, becomes an issue of focus and energy as we attempt to resist it, which therefore becomes the thing we actually do. In other words (to quote wiki), "any idea exclusively occupying the mind turns into reality..."

The problem, Coue says, occurs when the will power opposes the imagination (mental ideas). "Insomniacs show the law of reversed effect perfectly. The more effort and willpower they use to go to sleep, the more sleep evades them. Dropping off to sleep is an automatic or subconscious process, the more you grit your teeth and use effort to go to sleep the more awake you become."

Philip isn't in love, Philip is in self-conflict... his imagination is warring with his willpower. I actually think this is what Philip has been doing all along with everything in his life. Maybe this is the "bondage" the title speaks of?

ETA: I meant Griffiths, not Mitchel. Sheesh.

Janice George (JG) wrote: "Philip isn't in love, Philip is in self-conflict... his imagination is warring with his willpower. I actually think this is what Philip has been doing all along with everything in his life. Maybe this is the "bondage" the title speaks of? "

Good observation. You're right, we haven't tackled the title yet, but we're probably getting close to the point when we'll be ready to. Who is bound, and by what? Or is everybody bound by something?

I'm not quite through this section yet, but wow. Yep, kind of saw that coming. I really like Norah, liked her immediately, and I think Phillip did/does too. I think his heart knows that she's a good lady (although there is this issue of a husband out there somewhere) and then here comes Mildred again. I wanted to scream at the page. What a leech she is, and what an idiot Philip is. And the mental gymnastics that he has to do to convince himself that she is right for him are astounding.

I like what you noted Janice about the idea exclusively occupying the mind turns to reality. He wants Mildred to love him so much that he convinces himself that he loves her. It's so abusive and maddening. Phillip seemed to be getting things back on track - not spending money he didn't have, getting his studies under control, re-connecting with friends, and then here she comes. And I'm not sure who I'm more angry with, Phillip or Mildred. Grrrr...

Oh Philip what are you doing...

I was so sad for Norah. I didn't really want him to stay with her because he clearly didn't love her and was just using her but the way he went about it was pretty cruel. And Mildred wow she's a piece of work what a user. I'm really curious now to see how that's going to play out. It can't end well for Philip.

I really like the philosophical conversations. In this section I especially liked the conversation about free will and regret. This line in particular " why, merely the futility of regret. It's no good crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it"

Jen wrote: "And I'm not sure who I'm more angry with, Phillip or Mildred. Grrrr..."

Well, I know who I'm more angry with--Philip! I mean, I'm angry with Mildred, of course, the same way I'm angry with all con-artists, but Philip, at this point, should know better.

I understand that he feels compelled by his emotions, but we all have desires and compulsions that we have to overcome and do not act on. He feels helpless to resist her, but in actuality, she only has as much power over him as he allows her to have. If he would just shut the door in her face, she would not be able to compel him to do anything. I'm just disgusted by his spinelessness, and, as usual, mystified by his choices. Okay, if his self-esteem is so low that he believes that no one would want him, that might explain his slavish devotion to Mildred--but she's not the only one paying attention to him. He has Norah, who treats him well, and he turns his back on this generous, loving woman to take up with a woman whom he knows is cruel and undeserving.

I know, too, that we always want what we don't have, but I've just never seen it taken to this limit, except for a man who is totally bewitched by a woman of great beauty and charm. I've just never heard of a man bewitched by a woman who repulses him--it's very puzzling! I'm sure she's just going to dump him again, and I can't say that it will bother me when it happens! He's pretty much asking for it.

Amanda wrote: "I really like the philosophical conversations. "

I agree. The aren't really necessary to the development of the plot, but they, especially compared with the earlier philosophical discussions in Heidelberg and Paris, give us insight in to the development of Philip's thought. And, to the extent that they are autobiographical, perhaps to Maugham's intellectual development also.

Cindy wrote: "I understand that he feels compelled by his emotions, but we all have desires and compulsions that we have to overcome and do not act on. "

This is true, but I'm thinking that with Philip it may go beyond that to have become an addiction. We all know that people addicted to drugs, or alcohol, or the Internet, or whatever should overcome and not act on their addictions, but they don't. And even they can't tell you why they don't/can't. I'm thinking that Maugham is setting Philip up as more than merely infatuated, but as actually addicted (emotional addiction can be every bit as powerful as physical addiction, can't it?). Perhaps this is part of the reason for the title -- human addiction is a form of human bondage, isn't it?

Everyman wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I understand that he feels compelled by his emotions, but we all have desires and compulsions that we have to overcome and do not act on. "

This is true, but I'm thinking that with P..."

Yes, you're right, as always! I guess I get too caught up in my frustration at the character's actions and miss the big picture. He is definitely in bondage to his feelings for Mildred. Thanks for getting me back on track!

Amanda wrote: "In this section I especially liked the conversation about free will and regret. This line in particular "why, merely the futility of regret. It's no good crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it""

Amanda, I picked up on that line also. It is certainly an interesting way of thinking so that we never have to give into the feelings of regret we ever have.

As to Mildred leaving to marry Miller, I sighed a great sigh of relief, but then I was left with an underlying sense of "things are going too well for Philip" that something dreadful must be on the horizon. However, I still did not guess that Mildred would come back to him pregnant and he would take on all the responsibility! He is just digging himself a deeper and deeper hole, because now not only is he falling back into an unhealthy emotional trap with "loving" Mildred, but now he's squandering even more of his money. I just hope he stays on course in studying to become a doctor so that he has some foreseeable income in his future.

Everyman, I had not given the title of the book much thought lately. "human addiction as a form of human bondage" - interesting thought!

I really like this idea of addiction. Phillip is certainly over the top of something when it comes to Mildred. I believe he knows in his head that she's not good for him, and that he doesn't even really like her, but he absolutely can't help himself. Bondage / addiction, same same. Maybe?

I have to say I dislike Philip quite a lot by now. When I read about how he treats his friends and his work when he falls in love, I couldn't help but think that he's the kind of person I would try to avoid in real life. Of course in his relationship with Norah she was the one who loved and he was the beloved, but I thought above all they were friends. Philip was the one who turned their relationship into romance in the first place. I understand that he loves Mildred and is passionate about it, but that is no excuse for how he treats Norah, not telling her the truth she deserves. What I disapproved of the most was that he suddenly even felt physical repulsion at her sight... isn't it going a bit too far? (" his whole soul revolted against the idea of seeing her that evening. He thought of writing to her, but he could not bring himself to address her as usual, dearest Norah"). It is so sad and I'm afraid for Norah. After all, Fanny was also infatuated with Philip.

My point is, he is too emotional and doesn't follow his mind at all. We all have impulses and I agree that some people may feel stronger emotions that the rest, but Philip doesn't even try to take an active part in his own life, things just happen to him. Even worse than that, now he's created his own philosophy which is no more than an elaborate excuse for his behaviour:

'The illusion of free will is so strong in my mind that I can't get away from it, but I believe it is only an illusion. (...) Before I do anything I feel that I have choice, and that influences what I do; but afterwards, when the thing is done, I believe that it was inevitable from all eternity'.

What a perfect excuse. Sorry Norah, it was inevitable that I hurt you, I couldn't help myself: Fate decided otherwise.

I keep hoping that he grows out of this phase in life, but right now I don't see it coming.


Janice George (JG) wrote: "There has been enough foreshadowing about Philip praising Griffiths to the skies that, coupled with Mildred's self-involved nature, I too am almost reluctant to take on the next section... because dollars to donuts Mildred falls for Griffiths"

Oh yes, I'm sure she will, which is why I want to start reading the next section ASAP and see if we finally get rid of Mildred or not.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that Philip seemed to be a victim of French psychologist Coue's Law of Reversed Effect. I was recently reading some background on Maugham in The Novel: A Biography, and it mentioned that Maugham spent a great deal of time in France, and in fact French became his primary language. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he knew of Coue's conclusions, and used the idea in his novels... especially with Philip.

What an emotionally charged section....

Philip and Norah.....how similar their relationship is to that of Mildred and Philip. My heart breaks for Norah. A woman that works so hard to keep her life going and never complains. She is good to Philip and if he would allow it she is good for Philip. It was nice seeing him truly happy even though he is unaware of it

Mildred. Formerly I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Prior to her return she never asked for anything. But now she gets into trouble and runs to Philip. She knows exactly what she is doing and she will use and abuse him until he spends his last guinea on her. And giving up your baby as if it is an object taking up too much space? Disgusting. There is not one redeeming quality in that woman

Philip. I neither like nor dislike him. I pity him. To be so emotionally dependent on a woman who does not care for him. It disgusts me how he pAthetically throws himself at her begging for her attention. She is going to destroy him. There are glimpses of goodness though. He feels guilt over what he does to Norah. He is bothered by what Mildred does with the baby. There is something there. I hope it isn't eaten up by his infatuation with Mildred


I tried reading this book in high school but only made it to about here. What I always remember us my English teacher always referring to Mildred as a wench. I believe he was correct.

Janice George (JG) wrote: "I mentioned earlier in this thread that Philip seemed to be a victim of French psychologist Coue's Law of Reversed Effect. I was recently reading some background on Maugham in [book:The Novel: A B..."

Interesting discovery. Thanks!

Stephanie wrote: "Philip. I neither like nor dislike him. I pity him. "

I understand that, but personally I find it hard to raise much pity for him because I see it so much as his choice. I realize that Maugham suggests that Philip is helpless to change his relationship with Mildred, but I'm in the class of those who want to shake him and tell him to shape up, and not waste pity on somebody who has the opportunity to be happy but keeps making bad choices.

But it's a dilemma that Maugham puts us in, isn't it? To what extent does Philip really have free will, and to what extend is he functionally enslaved by emotions he doesn't have the psychological capacity to overcome? Is it his fault that he is this way? Is it a choice he makes? Or is it inherent in his character (or in his upbringing? That gets us into nurture vs. nature, doesn't it?) that he is helpless, the way some people seem to be simply unable to take control of aspects of their lives that they know are making them unhappy but they can't do anything about?

When you step back from the story itself to look at it technically, it is really a tour-de-force in Maugham's part, isn't it?

Everyman wrote: "When you step back from the story itself to look at it technically, it is really a tour-de-force in Maugham's part, isn't it? "

Oh yes, Philip is certainly a very well described character, and interesting even though more than a little irritating. It also helps that we know his entire life story, upbringing etc. Otherwise it would be a lot easier to condemn him instead of trying to understand his motives.

I wonder if Phillip were female would he be beaten down with a series of cruel abusive men and a brood of unhappy children that suck the life force from their mother.

Stephanie wrote: "I wonder if Phillip were female would he be beaten down with a series of cruel abusive men and a brood of unhappy children that suck the life force from their mother."

Egad. What a thought!

I've been continuing to listen to this and have been greatly enjoying his work. One thing I am interested in is those who say that Philip 'isn't really in love'. The trouble with saying that is that 'love' is just a word. With romantic love especially I find it fairly much impossible to state what 'love' is. I'm happy enough to say that a mother normally 'loves' a child, or a couple who have been together for 60 years and are happy with each other 'love' as well. But other than that it gets tricky. Did Romeo 'love' Juliet? Really 'love' her? I don't think so. He was 15 and barely knew her. He might have grown to 'love' her but the oftentimes called 'greatest love story of all time' never progresses that far.

Is 'true' romantic love considered a perfect combination of shared beliefs, interests and humour all bound up with that necessary ingredient of intense sexual desire? If that's the definition then he doesn't 'love' her. Along with about 99% of all other relationships I should think...

Philip sees all of Mildred's faults and he dislikes her quite a lot. They have nothing in common but he still can't break free. He didn't like how she looked at first and found her manner unpleasant but he still comes back. Part of it is an unwillingness to be put down but the huge obsession it develops into must be based on more than that. Does he 'love' her? I don't know because I'm not sure what 'love' is. But whatever he feels it has staying power. To steal a quote from the great cultural classic 'The Matrix' "No one can tell you if you're in love, you just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone". Philip thinks he's in love and in the end he's the one feeling it.

One thing I will say about his affair with Mildred is that it showing him another side of human suffering. He's experienced isolation, humiliation and physical suffering previously but there is really nothing like having your heart ripped out of your chest and torn apart over and over to teach a person the agony of 'love'.

Ugh, I am so frustrated with Philip by this point! When she got married and took off, I was so relieved for him, and when Norah entered the picture, huzzah! Finally a worthwhile lady, who isn't afraid to call him out on being way too sensitive, and shows him love that he's tried so desperately to give others. Although what's with his "He hated, despised and loved her..." I have no idea.

But when Mildred comes back and he immediately seems to realize he never quit loving her....c'MON! Have you learned NOTHING?!

This section has a lot to do with relationships, but overall, he's still trying to figure out a great deal about the world. "The thing then was o discover what one was and one's system of philosophy would devise itself. It seemed to Philip that there were three things to find out; man's relation to the world he lives in, man's relation with the men among whom he lives, and finally man's relation to himself." These are all things Philip is exploring, even if subconsciously. The fatalism idea is very prevalent. He hasn't decided if he believes it's all Fate or not, but it does become a rather convenient excuse when he doesn't want to have to be forced to make difficult decisions.

"The illusion of free will is so strong in my mind that I can't get away from it, but I believe it is only an illusion. But it is an illusion which is one of the strongest motives for my actions. Before I do anything I eel that I have choice, and that influences what I do; but afterwards, when the thing is done, I believe that it was inevitable from all eternity." This, at the core, is what's he's struggling over. I'm still pondering this statement myself, not sure what I think about it.

His thoughts when questioned about his reading I found interesting: "Partly for pleasure, because it's a habit and I'm just as uncomfortable if I don't read as if I don't smoke, and partly to know myself. When I read a book I seem to read it with my eyes only, but now and then I come across a passage, perhaps only a phrase, which has a meaning for ME, and it becomes part of me; I've got out of the book all that's any use to me and I can't get anything more if I read it a dozen times." I relate to the part about certain phrases sticking with you, but I for one get more out of every reading of a book. Any "one-time-only" readers agree with Philip? Or "re-readers" who disagree?

And does it bother anyone else that both Philip and Mildred keep referring to her daughter as "it?" The only time we even know her gender is when Maghaum tells us that she bore a daughter. How very detached.

This whole section read like a daytime soap opera to me. It was like flipping on the TV... and we thought we invented all this relational silliness in our generation! I'm curious where this is all going, although I'm just about out of hope for Philip to mature into a responsible, stable, functioning adult. Grr!

Alana......a soap opera. My thoughts exactly!!!

I would understand Philip better if he were gay. It would explain his relationship with Rose back in school. And also with Haywood. Philip seems drawn more to these men than to any woman he encounters. Happier with them. More at ease.

It would explain the way he takes up with women to whom he is not attracted, even repulsed by. How he can be indifferent to Norah when she is so perfect for him. It might even explain how the 'great love' of his life can be just an obsession with a women who seems asexual toward him, who treats him with indifference, who treat him badly.

How would a man act who desires love but who has been taught that there's only one source from which that can be found? Would he keep throwing himself at women who 'revolt' him simply because it's a strong emotion?

Philip seems such a confusing bag of emotions. We've seen him show great compassion (to the dead Fanny, to Mildred's child), but all his other emotional interactions seem sort of "off" and I'm trying to figure out why that would be.

Renee wrote: "I would understand Philip better if he were gay. It would explain his relationship with Rose back in school. And also with Haywood. Philip seems drawn more to these men than to any woman he encount..."

SM was gay and as this novel is sort of/not quite/sometimes if you squint autobiographical it wouldn't be too much of a stretch if those multiple man crushes of Philips were subtle hints.

Mildred was also described as 'androgynous' which is another flag. She was apparently based on a man who he was having troubles with but whether that is true or just rumour, who knows.

Interesting, Nicola. I wonder if it was intensional or unintentional that Philip "reads" as he does. I keep thinking about The Portrait of Dorian Grey where the male friendships seem so much more realistic and well-defined that the romance.

Alana wrote: "This whole section read like a daytime soap opera to me. It was like flipping on the TV... and we thought we invented all this relational silliness in our generation!"

Ah, no. It goes back to the Greeks, if not further. Their view of relationships could be just as convoluted and unhealthy as Philip's. If not more so!

Renee wrote: "Interesting, Nicola. I wonder if it was intensional or unintentional that Philip "reads" as he does. I keep thinking about The Portrait of Dorian Grey where the male friendships seem so much more r..."

Quite intentional I would have thought. SM was obviously a great reader so any protagonist who was a mirror of himself would have to be so as well.

Yes, the infamous Greeks and their gods always getting into soap opera drama! It does rather feel that way.

Good thoughts Renee and Nicola. It does seem to shed some light on some very odd relational circumstances.

Everyman wrote: "Although the section starts with Philip failing his examination, he doesn't care, or at least persuades himself that he doesn't care.

But for the reader, or at least for me as a reader, there is ..."

Janice George (JG) wrote: "There has been enough foreshadowing about Philip praising Mitchell Griffiths to the skies that, coupled with Mildred's self-involved nature, I too am almost reluctant to take on the next section......"

Philip isn't in love, Philip is in self-conflict... his imagination is warring with his willpower. I actually think this is what Philip has been doing all along with everything in his life. Maybe this is the "bondage" the title speaks of?
Yes...Yes, he is a prisoner of his own convictions! And this is what winds me up so tightly about Philip. Like Teanka, I too find Philip highly irritating.

I'm thinking that Maugham is setting Philip up as more than merely infatuated, but as actually addicted (emotional addiction can be every bit as powerful as physical addiction, can't it?). Perhaps this is part of the reason for the title -- human addiction is a form of human bondage, isn't it?
WOW...An addiction to Mildred just sounds so much more serious than an infatuation, or a limitless passion; but you're right, it's possible, and the situation is "serious." I want to revisit this question once I'm finished, because I don't think he genuinely even likes Mildred, I don't think he likes anybody for that matter...How can one attempt to like/love others and seek contentment from them when the individual doesn't even like/love or find happiness within themselves? Doesn't the latter have to occur before we go out seeking it from everybody else in order for it to ring true?

I would understand Philip better if he were gay. It would explain his relationship with Rose back in school. And also with Haywood. Philip seems drawn more to these men than to any woman he encounters. Happier with them. More at ease.

It would explain the way he takes up with women to whom he is not attracted, even repulsed by.
Interesting! Could you imagine if Philip was homosexual...On top of all of his delayed emotional maturity, SM would have really set Philip up in a boat without any paddles...Talk about suffering...And tortured?! I actually see a lot of S&M references...Its presence in having power over others, and the enjoyment from being powerless is evident in the narrative.

I attributed his denial for both Nora and Miss W. to his petty nature, that he wasn't the one pursuing them like he does Mildred, but I'm very intrigued by the potential homosexual undertones now that you've brought it to my attention! Stephanie mentioned something similar; but, both Nora and Miss W.'s interactions with Philip are mirror images of how unhinged Philip becomes in his relationship with Mildred...Nora and Miss W. are to Philip, as Philip is to Mildred...Another reason, maybe, for him denying them? I posted this in the thread for Week 5, but it would have been better here, I don't mean to be redundant.

I understand that, but personally I find it hard to raise much pity for him because I see it so much as his choice....To what extent does Philip really have free will, and to what extend is he functionally enslaved by emotions he doesn't have the psychological capacity to overcome?
I'm swayed towards he's unaware of how to tap into theses other choices because of the lack of psychological capacity, as you say. I'm under the impression I can only blame his upbringing for so long; at some point, he has to take responsibility for his actions. Maybe Mildred is a form of karmic justice for Philip... For treating people poorly?

Question
On page 281-82 (Kindle Version) Philip and Hayward are talking about art, and "Ode to a Grecian Urne;" Philip then says the following...

Philip left Hayward to infer what in the passing scene had suggested these words to him, and it was a delight to know that he could safely leave the inference

.

It went over my head, but what did Philip leave to "inference?"

Ami, I'm just about to start this section so I shall try to keep a look out for 'inference' and what it might mean here.

Hilary wrote: "Ami, I'm just about to start this section so I shall try to keep a look out for 'inference' and what it might mean here."

Hilary! If you can, sure that would be great... I really liked this novel and loved discussing it. So good!!

Hi Ami, I was at a loss too, so I mentioned it to my so much cleverer husband and he said "I believe that it's referring to a landmark on the 'passing scene' on their river journey that caused him to muse on the relative beauties of architecture etc. If you take a boat journey from Westminster Bridge to Greenwich, after a short time you will see the iconic dome of St Paul's Cathedral. Is this a work of beauty or a
monstrosity? Philip's view is that it has no beauty in itself but beauty has been bestowed upon it by generations of admirers."

It helps that he works in Westminster during the week!

Hilary wrote: "Hi Ami, I was at a loss too, so I mentioned it to my so much cleverer husband and he said "I believe that it's referring to a landmark on the 'passing scene' on their river journey that caused him ..."

Okay, WoW! I would have never derived that on my own. Thank you so much, Hillary and your husband!

Is this a work of beauty or a monstrosity? Philip's view is that it has no beauty in itself but beauty has been bestowed upon it by generations of admirers."
Ah, much like love...Beauty too is subjective. Philip's view, it's an aspect of his personality I truly do admire; to be able to separate from the flock and stand on his own with is own ideals, but it's what compels him "to" think differently that gives me pause. Philip is a prickly being, who often said and did to cause derision between him and whoever else. He argued for argument's sake, not to make any valid point. Am I right about this...It's been quite some time since reading, but I do carry thoughts of this novel still with me today?

Yes Ami, I love your point about love and its subjective nature. I think that you're right about Philip's brand of argument. It's almost as though he just likes the sound of his own voice. His arguments seem to be very circular, but that may simply be my inability to concentrate! :D

Sadly I don't have a detailed memory of the story even though I have just reread this section!

I'm glad that the St Paul's explanation was of some benefit to you. I like this book a lot too. Unfortunately I had read a significant part of it before, so it is all a little disjointed in my mind. Ah well, onward and upward!