Lord of the Flies discussion

Geoffrey wrote: "It`s about the truth of human nature that so many people refuse to consider. That`s why it`s so great."

Perhaps the truth of some humans nature. Certainly not universal.

When you say "in [the] English language" was that supposed to include works translated into English? Lots of books worth vouching for (some mentioned already) even in translation end up being some of the best works an English reader will ever encounter. Authors of such works would include Hugo, Dumas, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Cervantes, Mann, (to name a few) whose works, even in translation, blow William Golding out of the water.

No Tracy. It`s universal. We don`t exclude any ethnic stock, nationalities, sub groups, or religions.

Hmm, this is like the dinner party question of 'if you were stranded on a desert island and could only have one book, what would it be?' more of a rhetorical exercise. I think I would want Hamlet or Othello as (not novels I know) I have reread them many times.

A.J. wrote: "Hmm, this is like the dinner party question of 'if you were stranded on a desert island and could only have one book, what would it be?' more of a rhetorical exercise. I think I would want Hamlet ..."

))

Josh wrote: "When you say "in [the] English language" was that supposed to include works translated into English? Lots of books worth vouching for (some mentioned already) even in translation end up being some..."

Though there are a lot of authors who'll apparently tear Golding in two there also are a great number who'll be blown by Golding with no doubts)))

Robert wrote: "I read a while ago that some critic made the statement that "Lord of the Flies" was the best book ever written in the English language. I stopped when I read that statement, because it's a powerful..."

Sorry. Although it's been a long time since I read it, I still consider it one of the WORST books ever to become a "classic." It's merely a sensationalized version of the time-worn plot of the breakdown of society. Many authors before and since have written books with similar themes and better writing.
It doesn't even qualify as one of the best fiction books ever mandated for high school students. If it had been labelled one of the "best YA books," I might have been tempted to agree. But certainly not one of the best ever written -- at least in my opinion.

Larry wrote: "Robert wrote: "I read a while ago that some critic made the statement that "Lord of the Flies" was the best book ever written in the English language. I stopped when I read that statement, because ..."

Right on, brother.

Larry wrote: "Robert wrote: "I read a while ago that some critic made the statement that "Lord of the Flies" was the best book ever written in the English language. I stopped when I read that statement, because ..."

Thank you. I agree with you all the way except your comment about "if it had been labeled best YA book I might have been tempted to agree." Why is that? You said the writing wasn't that good and I've read plenty of YAs with excellent writing.

While I haven't read every book ever written in English, so I don't qualify as an expert, here's my vote for Best American Novel of the 20th century: Ken Kesey's Sometimes A Great Notion.
Even Ken himself said that it was great (Not like Cuckoo's Nest) and he was way humble when it came to that (met him years before many of you were born--that man was far out, RIP).
'Notion' has it all. It's better if you're an old bear who's seen a half century of living or more, but if you're a serious lit freak, check it out.

How about The English Patient? Or The Sound and the Fury? But I'd have to say that Lord of the Flies is on a par with 1984.

It deals with a basic question about human nature that has been generally neglected in contemporary philosophic discussion....what is the nature of man and his "evils".In answer to 4everoldmember´s question.If that by itself is insufficient reason to being a very heady significant topic I will eat my hat.

What about War and Peace? Natasha stands out as one of the great, complex heroines of all times.

Several fine great books mentioned in this thread were originally not written in English.

If the possibles for the best book (or at least my choice in such a pursuit) were expanded outside the realm of English, Marcel Proust's Swann's Way is one of my top contenders.

Leo Tolstoy and Fyodor Dostoyevsky while great authors were surpassed in power, quantity/quality, and experiential writing by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in the 20th Century. So I have to eliminate them from the non-English competition.

On War, Indexed Edition or more properly Vom Kriege by Carl von Clausewitz is a non-fiction entry that I put on the top 10 works about war and military history.

A true must read non-fiction work for any student of 20th century history is Street Without Joy by Bernard B. Fall. If only a generation of U.S. politicians and military leaders had digested this book prior to even thinking about becoming involved in SE Asia, well the second half of the 20th century would have been considerably different!

There are some other contenders including works by Bolaño, Roberto, who I mentioned in an earlier post, or Haruki Murakami in the fiction realm.

Part II

The argument for Lord of the Flies includes thematic elements that for me don't hold up. Whether the human nature as a primitive structure that one descends into when unconstrained, or the inevitable doom and violence, Lord of the Flies has not aged well for me since I first read it.

As a primary argument against Lord of the Flies is that a reader has to recognize the synthetic and nearly too fantastical setting of story. An island gives author Golding license to be less than sincere with his audience. The book forces the needed conflict and suspension of disbelief that a great writer in the realm of fiction almost invariably prefers to inveigle their reader into with guile and seduction.

The style of writing no longer captures my attention after 30 years since my first read. Prosaic is now at best an understatement when referring to Golding's writing style in this book.

Three works that I find to be exemplary, in complexity, quality, and are a joy to read, but require more than a small amount of effort from the reader to fully appreciate are:

Heart of Darkness and the Congo Diary by Joseph Conrad
All the King's Men by Robert Penn Warren
Revolutionary Road by Richard Yates

Three works written in English that cover a multitude of topics.

Conrad writing from within the Victorian Empire at its height of power and influence about social, racial, and economic prejudice, corruption and the descent into madness it produces has no equal. As an outsider who would never truly be an Englishman as he was born in Poland, Conrad commanded the use of the English language as few others probably ever will.

Penn Warren, a one time Poet Laureate of the United States, captures the political machinations of a generation against a back drop of fading privilege, social injustice, government corruption, murder, and all the other elements one could want in a story and a modern fable. There is even a love triangle (quadrangle even?) with infidelity, betrayal, convenience and tragedy.

Yates Revolutionary Road is a recent, for me, addition to the list of top works in the English language though it is as old as am I. Yates punctures the American Dream just as it is beginning with a prophetic view. The story that is a morality tale of suburbia and the emergent commuter class displays some of the best writing that American Arts & Letters has produced. How this book and author slid under the radar for as long as it did is part of the story of why it will continue to grow in 'greatness.'

It’s certainly up there, isn’t it?

There’s no BEST book. There’s a pantheon of GREAT BOOKS and that should be enough for any writer.

Touche, Mark. Exactly. But then we get to choose our favorite from that pantheon and claim it as the best.

Well for me it's always been the Book Thief by Markus Zusak, because it's just such a beautiful book with so much symbolism.

My votes:
Greatest book ever written: Crime and Punishment
Best written book of all time: Madame Bovary
Best American novel: Huck Finn
Best 20th Century American: The Sun Also Rises
Best 20th Century UK: 1984
Best 19th Century UK: Great Expectations
Best 21st Century UK: Atonement
Best 21st Century American: ???

Not a single vote for Stern's "Private Parts"?

Lolita is great but I'd befell so much better about it if she were 3 years older. The writing though is remarkable

Mark wrote: "There’s no BEST book. There’s a pantheon of GREAT BOOKS and that should be enough for any writer."
Thank you! Yes. It is impossible (and even divisive) to pit the literature of Ireland, Scotland, Australia, Britain, the USA, and all other places where someone has written and written well in English against one another. And even if we did such a thing, how do we judge the time of Beowolf against Shakespeare and Chaucer against Twain against Morrison? There is so much great literature, both fiction and nonfiction...so I too would reject the question. I would prefer to judge more specific genres and time periods.

That said, I hated Lord of the Flies and I completely disagree with the writer's view of humanity.

I think in general, for a site dedicated to the love of great books and writing and thus thinking, the topics heron are so mundane as to revert one back to an eighth grade or ESPN mentality

One title to end all arguments; "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter S. Thompson.

Not even close

Feliks wrote: "Ireland isn't in Europe, though."

What.

Donna wrote: "Mark wrote: "There’s no BEST book. There’s a pantheon of GREAT BOOKS and that should be enough for any writer."
Thank you! Yes. It is impossible (and even divisive) to pit the literature of Ireland..."

Me too.

One trend I've noticed that seems really counter-intuitive to me is that most lists of "best books" are very heavily weighted towards the "classics" and other older books. Ignoring any stylistic preferences (I don't particularly enjoy reading old English, but I'm 100% aware that that is merely personal preference) it's an interesting phenomenon because it implies that the perceived quality of novels written is declining over time.

My question: Do you think that what's really happening, or is the perception of these older books as "great" increasing their stature in the minds of many readers?

Say you were given two books focusing on similar concepts; one is a classic written hundreds of years ago, the other is a modern novel with better narrative structure, plot, characterisation, etc, is the modern novel "worse" simply because it covers themes and concepts that were already explored to a slightly lesser extent in the classic?

In my view, I think the publish date of a book should be irrelevant to whether or not it is counted as a great book. Literary tricks and unusual writing techniques should not in themselves result in a book being considered a great work. My criteria would be more along the lines of how well it works as a novel - how engaging the characters are, how compelling the plot is, how the writing techniques and narrative structure combine with the plot to convey the story.

These are all naturally very subjective things, and the greatest book of all time in one person's view could be a doorstop in the view of another, but I don't see any way of comparing books in which that is not the case.

Robert wrote: "What other novels come to mind? And why? "

I give LOTF due credit because of its timeless warning about fascism, but felt the quality of the writing was just average.

I like East of Eden for its message that man is empowered by free will to overcome his biological and socio-cultural influence. Plus the writing quality is very good.

Raptor, I think rather people are aware that for newly published works, it is too soon to judge their longevity and importance.

Kenneth wrote: "Raptor, I think rather people are aware that for newly published works, it is too soon to judge their longevity and importance."

Which implies that a book being "great" isn't anything to do with the quality of the novel itself, and merely results from the amount of cultural influence it exerts. Twilight, Hunger Games and Harry Potter anyone?! :D

RaptorSaur wrote: "Which implies that a book being "great" isn't anything to do with the quality of the novel itself, and merely results from the amount of cultural influence it exerts. Twilight, Hunger Games and Harry Potter anyone?! "

The immense popularity of these titles says volumes about our current culture--and the message isn't particularly good. We would do well to pay attention to these messages.

Is it any surprise that a generation who grew up with "smart" phones linked to the Internet can be hypnotized by books showing all you have to do solve the world's problems is hop on a broom and wave a magic want?

Time will tell whether these literary dogs become classics. They very well may. Christ, if Atlas Shrugged can become a classic, anything is possible.

And it raises the question of the moral nature of man in a most profound way.LOTF

To kill a Mockingbird!!! all the way.

The question was not "best novel in English" but "best BOOK in English." The correct answer for me is James Baldwin's soaring The Fire Next Time. I like nearly all the books named thus far. However, I will admit to being baffled at Lord of the Flies as number one draft pick. Its social vision is small and dark, an understandable view that ignores what Lincoln called "the better angels of our nature," which are just as much a part of us as the poisonous truths Golding portrays. The writing is excellent but doesn't come near the top--certainly not near Baldwin, Twain, Hurston, Walt Whitman's immortal Leaves of Grass, which is also a BOOK, or Robert Penn Warren's All the King's Men. Warren 's novel captures all the darkness of Golding's masterpiece but also shows a realistic, tempered possibilities for humanity, if we come to grips with our past and fight for our future.

Wow! Someone has actually mentioned THE FIRE NEXT TIME. Yes, it`s one of my favorites as is GO TELL IT ON A MOUNTAIN. Very underrated.

But no, LOTF is one of the best books written in the English language. I will stick with whoever makes that claim.

I wouldn't kick the BROTHERS KARAMAZOV out of bed. I was underlining like a crazy man, and I was reading it for fun. "The Grand Inquisitor" is one of the chapters. Very thought provoking.

David wrote: "I wouldn't kick the BROTHERS KARAMAZOV out of bed. I was underlining like a crazy man, and I was reading it for fun. "The Grand Inquisitor" is one of the chapters. Very thought provoking."

Only the Brothers Karamazov was not written in English.

I see some other nominations for a great book that too are not originally written in English.

Feliks wrote: "I've heard various titles recommended as 'best'

'Don Quixote'
'War and Peace'
'The Brothers Karamazov' "

I don't think those would be considered English language novels. They were originally written in Spanish, Russian, and Russian.

The Magic Mountain wasn't written in English. If we're going to allow translations, though, it's surely a contender. I wouldn't pick Lord of the Flies myself but I'd have another Golding in my top five - the To the Ends of the Earth trilogy.

But I'm going to go for J. B. Priestley's Bright Day.

Larry wrote: "While I haven't read every book ever written in English, so I don't qualify as an expert, here's my vote for Best American Novel of the 20th century: Ken Kesey's Sometimes A Great Notion.
Even Ken..."

Thanks for the recommendation of Sometimes a Great Notion. I've added it to my reading list.

You have a point. I keep seeing reviews on great Japanese novelists, but I don't think I've ever read one. Also people don't consider a work like ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE, but it's right up there with the best.

Requiem for Marquez.

The only scene I remember was the one about the crusty old angel with the beat up wings. I think he was sleeping in the barn. Magic realism did influence me as a writer, though.

And the outstanding scene for me was when Fermina was on the boat at the end of the novel and loses her hearing, but pretends otherwise.

The crusty old angle could've been in another book or
one of his short stories. It's been a while.

I hate this topic more than the Dallas Cowboys

There is no objective "best book" in the English language. A book would have to be constantly returned to in a variety of different critical lights and time periods for it to be remotely considered. Even then, there are canons which group books; scarcely is there one book is that conquers that of any other; statements like that come from personal choice and dogmatic ties. There are simply too many books to choose from.

Got to be a troll post. Goodreads must be desperate for ad revenue.