Chicks On Lit discussion

Starting this thread for our November group read of And the Mountains Echoed by Khaled Hosseini.

Our discussion leader will be Julie. Who all is reading this book? Looking forward to a great discussion. I am almost finished, so I will be joining in.
Happy reading and discussing everyone.

I plan to participate. I guess I'd better get moving and read the book!

I read it this past summer & will be discussing based on my memory of it.

I just started this book about a week or so ago.

Hope to start this one tonight.

I usually start my book club discussions with a few questions to get us all chatting...Why did you read this book? Have you read any other books by this author? Would you recommend it to a friend?

I read this book only because it was picked for this book club discussion. :-)

I have not read any other books by this author, though I do have a copy of The Kite Runner on my shelf, and have heard good things about it. Just have not got to reading it yet. (so many books, so little time)

I don't know if I would recommend this specific book to a friend. Maybe if they liked other books by this author? It was not quite what I was expecting.

I wanted to read this book because I have already read The Kite Runner and Thousand Splendid Suns, both of which I loved. I was not disappointed. I am a bit perplexed about parts of the book, but that does not mean I did not completely enjoy it. I was talking with a friend when I was still only half way through it and recommended it before I had finished. I devoured it. I did not want to put it down. It read so smoothly that it took me away, each character told their part of the story wonderfully. The details were perfect to create time and place and personality.

I'm in - just finished the book!

This was a great book, but I wouldn't blindly recommend this book to friends - there are a number of difficult issues in it, so I'd have to consider the person I'm recommending it to and where they are in life.

I read this book only because I thoroughly enjoyed The Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns. I would only recommend this to a friend if he or she had previously read and enjoyed the author's other two works. Otherwise, if a friend hadn't read those, I would recommend The Kite Runner first and A Thousand Splendid Suns second.

There were certainly many parts of this book that I enjoyed, but this was less of a novel and more of a collection of short stories. And when I read something thinking that it is a novel, then I expect a novel. In general, I don't read collections of short stories much. I like to stories that are novel length because I like to invest in the story and characters. Short stories, while they can be great and powerful, leave us too quickly. I like to spend more time with characters than short stories allow for.

I read both of the other books mentioned and this one and I have to say that I agree with Viola. This one was my least favorite of the three.

I read this one because I like the author. I like to read books by the same author (if I like them)

The novel begins with a tale of extraordinary sacrifice that has ramifications through generations of families. What do you think of Saboor's decision to let the adoption take place? How are Nila and Nabi implicated in Saboor's decision? What do you think of their motives? Who do you think is the most pure or best intended of the three adults? Ultimately, do you think Pari would have had a happier life if she had stayed with her birth family?

I absolutely loved the opening fable and the story about Saboor, Abdullah, and Pari. The story drew me in and captured my heart. It's a devastating decision for a parent, but I don't think there is a clear cut right answer here and that's why the dilemma is worth writing & reading about. I think that there are many instances in which parents have to make similar sacrifices, and they always hope that they are making the best decision for their children by giving them up for adoption, by giving them the opportunity for a better life. Is it the best decision? I don't know. It's hard to say. I'm lucky enough to not have ever faced that sort of decision.

The bedtime story that began the novel influenced the way I interpreted the adoption. I made the assumption that the monster in the fable was a symbol forpoverty. The grief of the father in that tale was overwhelming. With this as a key, I saw Saboor's motives to be the most pure and the most heart breaking decision. He appeared to be a good man who did love his children. I think he believed that Pari would have a chance at a better life with Nila. And, on some level, she does. She has access to an education and health care that would have been impossible had she stayed in the village. When we meet Pari's nephew and step brother outside that palacial compound, just returned from a refugee camp and their land stolen, we can only imagine what her life might have been had she stayed. She probably would have been married very young, her body broken by multiple births and inadequate nutrition a lifetime of sadness and an early death. As a female, she would not have had much of an education, certainly not the opportunity to fully develop intellectually. If she was capable of a PhD in mathamatics, can you imagine the intellectual gifts present in the other members of that family, abilities never allowed to develop? Of course, with Nila, there is unimagined burdens: the pain of mental health illness in a mother, the loneliness of family isolation, the gnawing pain of an unnamed loss. But, no one makes it out of this life without some sorrow and some difficulties.

Julie wrote: "Ultimately, do you think Pari would have had a happier life if she had stayed with her birth family?
"

Hmm, that is really hard to say. It does seem she had more choices in life being adopted, was given more opportunity than she would have ever had with her family. But "happier" is really hard to call. She could have been very poor with her original family yet still been very "happy".

Think of other sacrifices that are made throughout the book. Are there certain choices that are easier than others? Is Saboor's sacrifice when he allows Pari to be adopted easier or more difficult than Parwana's sacrifice of her sister? How are they similar and how are they different? Who else makes sacrifices in the book? What do you think the author is saying about the nature of the decisions we make in our lives and the ways in which they affect others?

I think a large piece of how we understand sacrifice has to do with the value system we hold, the meaning we assign to the sacrifice. As a western reader, I only had a small piece of the meaning system that informed each of these decisions. Parwana had the additional burden of knowing that her sister's paralysis was her direct responsibility. First she deliberately caused the accidnt that changed her life forever, then she is asked to directly percipitate her sister's death. In between, she lives with the knowledge that she can never make things right, a conclusion affirmed in spades by the request from the sister to abandon her in the desert. At least with Saboor, there is the possibility that he is allowing Pari to have a better, happier life.

And, what about the sacrifices not chosen? What about the mother in the opening fable or Pari's brother or Thalia (spelling) who has her face sacrificed. It takes courage to truly sacrifice. I can't imagine what Naboor must have felt watching Pari being denied her identity day after day or the self incrimination of Parwara leaving her sister to die such a terrible death. The other end of that spectrum is the man who befriends that girl in the hospital who can not make the sacrifices (relatively minor) to save her by getting her the needed surgery. Maybe the greatest sacrifices require the greatest love which provides the courage needed.

I keep thinking about the sections that are not directly related to the linage of Saboor. Marcus and his family, that Afghan American man and the little girl in the hospital, the son of the narco kingpin. Why were those included? I know that they shine light on the central family. I am still trying to fully understand what they are supposed to reveal to the reader.

I do wish I remembered this book more, as I wish I could comment about each individual story, but I can't remember all of them. (I looked the book on Wikipedia to try to jog my memory.)

I think that more than the theme of sacrifice, what I got out of the book was the theme about the bonds that tie us together. Sometimes the bonds are family, but not always. And these bonds touch us and change us even when we are no longer with those people. And that's what I think about the Idris and Roshi story. That there was a bond there, and indeed, Idris did not make the relatively small sacrifice for the Afghan girl once he returned to America. But there was still that bond.

And same thing with the son of the kingpin. He finds a bond with ... who was it? Wikipedia doesn't mention that other character's name... but you know, the boy outside of the compound walls that the son ends up playing with. And he forms this bond with him.

One more thought -- the other thing about sacrifice that I thought was interesting in this book is that sacrifice is something that a character does for another, but only with the imperfect thought/assumption that the sacrifice will be worthwhile. No one can predict exactly the consequence of the sacrifice, and that makes it even more of an interesting decision.

The other thing that grabbed me about that son of the narco kingpin section was that, in the end, he would sacrifice a bit of his own integrity. He picked family over an intrinsic sense of right and wrong. We never hear what Pari's brother thinks of his father after he lef the beloved little sister be adopted. Did he accept the fable's promise and accept that his father made a loving choice allowing his sister to be in some paradise? Does he resent his father? We can assume that Pari's father let her go because he truly loved her, really believed that he was offering her something far better than he could give her and that his heart broke in the process. But, what about Thalia's mother? Does she walk out of her daughter's life because she knows her own emotional limitations, that Marcus' mother could give her something that she could not? Or, does she abandon her daughter because she is incapable of loving her enough to really sacrifice herself for her daughter?

This book surprised me by including chapters that were only tangentially connected to the characters in the opening section. At first, I thought we were going to follow the single family through the voices of various members of that family. But, when we heard from Idras and Rashi who were simply neighbors who waved to Naboor and from Marcus and Thalia who simply rented the house from Naboor, I wondered why? It gave the book the feel of a short story collection with loosely connected narratives. But, when I finished, I questioned that initial feeling. Unlike Olive Kitteridge, this is not described as a short story collection. This is marketed as a novel. So, am I supposed to see these sections as integral? Would this book be incomplete without these sections? Why include them? What do others think?

I definitely see this book a a collection of short stories & that affected my overall feeling towards the book. I was expected a novel, not a collection of short stories. And so, I found the experience to be frustrating, annoying, and disappointing. I kept hoping to hear more about Saboor, Abdullah, and Pari. What was their story? We just get a beginning and an end.

I had also gone into reading Olive Kitteridge thinking that it was a novel. And that expectation of a novel too affected my opinion of the book.

I have to agree with you Viola. I read this book as a collection of short stories which made it more difficult for me to connect with the characters.

If you saw this as a short story collection, was there one story that stood out in a particular way? Why? If this read like a novel, was there a character that you particularly liked or connected with?

This was a collection of short stories for me too. They were not tied together enough for me to consider this a "novel". I also did not feel that I got to know any of the characters well enough before the author moved on to a different story. So in the end, I didn't really connect with any of them.

I did see this as a novel but can certainly see why it would be viewed as a collection of short stories. While we didn't follow one or two characters throughout the book, there were continuos themes that tied the stories together. For me, Abdullah and Pari were the main characters and the other stories were connected to them and helped flesh them out by association. I was pretty sure we'd come back to them in the end, as we did. I felt very emotionally connected to them and their story. I actually cried at the end. I never cry.

Irene wrote: "If you saw this as a short story collection, was there one story that stood out in a particular way? Why? If this read like a novel, was there a character that you particularly liked or connected..."

The first story stood out to me the most, but I wonder if maybe it's because it was the first one. Anyway, I found it to be the most powerful and I connected with it immediately.

Taylor wrote: "I did see this as a novel but can certainly see why it would be viewed as a collection of short stories. While we didn't follow one or two characters throughout the book, there were continuos theme..."
Taylor, What were the significant themes you saw consistently through this book?
I think that one of the things that initially confused me, but is the greatest source of on going slow revelation for me, is the sections that tied to Pari's and Abdullah's stories more loosely? How did you see Timor and Rashi, Marcus and Thalia, Adel and his family contributing to the fleshing out of the central family story? How are these sections essential to this as a integral novel?

The love between Abdullah and Pari was strong, pure, selfless, and enduring. The other relationships in the book really emphasized this by way of their contrasting qualities. The sibling relationship between Parwana and Masooma may have been loving but a selfish act by Parwana saw the relationship maintained through feelings of guilt. While Timor initially had selfless and altruistic feelings towards Rashi, these were soon forgotten when he returned to his regular life, and again this relationship ended with guilt. The strongest relationship, besides that of the main characters, was between Thalia, Markos, and his mother, although these relationships had obstacles to overcome and took time to develop. I also saw a theme of selfishness throughout the book, which again emphasized the purity of Abdullah's feelings towards his sister. In addition to Timor's abandonment of Rashi when faced with his own immediate needs and Parwana's actions towards her sister, Thalia's mother abandoned her so she could pursue her own interests and Nabi arranged the sale of his niece to gain favour with Nila. It is also interesting to compare parental figures in the book. Saboor sold his daughter in the hopes that she would have a better life. Nila does not appear to have been that great a parent. Her own father seems to have had her sterilized as a response to her promiscuity. Thalia's mother was a complete failure as a parent. I admit that I'm not sure where Adel and his father fit into all of this, but it was interesting to know what happened to Saboor's family in this section of the book.

Interesting, Taylor! You know, I didn't see this book as being so black and white. I don't disagree with you that Abdullah and Pari's relationship was the most strong, selfless, etc. one, but that's because they are both children when the novel begins and they are both ignorant of the plans in the adult world. It's the easiest relationship, because they are in a sense both victims of adults.

I didn't see selfishness/selflessness as a main theme and I didn't see this book being so black and white. I think you could label any of the adult characters as being selfless or selfish. It's hard to say, and I actually thought the author did a good job painting the situations as being complex. That sacrifice and thinking that you are doing a selfless deed or that thinking that you are doing something for the betterment of another isn't an easy decision. You might think that you are sacrificing and doing the best, but you don't really know. Like Saboor giving up Pari. He thinks it is the right choice that it'll be the best for her, but he doesn't really know. And in life, we don't always know, we just do our best.

Now, someone remind me about the Marcus and Thalia story, because I don't quite remember all of it. Wasn't it that Thalia's mother always kept her hidden and indoors, and Marcus was the one who gave Thalia the strength to venture out and show her face? And when/how did Thalia's mother abandon her? I can't remember.

Taylor, I am wondering if there is some parallel between Abdullah and Adel. Both are about the same age when they have to face the falibility of their father. Both have to choose between the harsh facts of life and a story that can interperrate those facts in a satisfactory manner. We do not know what happens to the relationship between Abdullah and his father when they return home without Pari, but we can assume that he adjusted. We see him as an old man, a good father and husband, not a bitter loner. We hear the stories he tells his own daughter. So, I get the impression that he accepts his father's story because he wants to believe, has to believe that Pari has been given the opportunity for something better. And we hear at the end of Adel's section that, despite the fact that it is dawning on him that his father is not a pure humanitarian, he will choose the story he is given about his father because he wants to, has to believe.

Why do you think that the book ended with Abdullah too deteriorated with Alzheimer's to recognize Pari? Why bring them together at all if Abdullah can not recognize it?

Viola, Thalia's mother kept her face veiled. As a reader, I was not completely certain if her mother did it out of embarrassment for herself or if her vanity was projected onto her child and she assumed that being veiled would be the most compassionate response. As Marcus gets to know Thalia, his initial revulsion is lessened and he starts to be less and less aware of her deformity and speech impediment. It is Marcus' mother that gives Thalia permission to remove the veil. It is Marcus' mother who forces Thalia to leave the safety of home study and go to school, facing head on the stares of the local town people. Grabbing Thalia and forcing her to attend school, publicly introducing her to the other students and daring them to react, could have back fired, but it didn't. Marcus' mother never minimizes the horror of the mutilated face, but she seems to give Thalia the strength to accept her deformity. Thalia's mother leaves her with Marcus and his mother when she goes off to make a movie. She initially writes with excuses about why her movie shoot is delayed. Eventually, the letters become less and less frequent and all realize that she is never returning for Thalia. In a sense, Thalia's mother abandons her to a better life. Marcus' mother is able to offer her a strength that her own mother could never have given her. But, even if it works out for the best for Thalia, it is clear that Thalia is abandoned by a woman who is too selfish to sacrifice for her daughter. We do not get to see Thalia's mother apart from Thalia or through any other eyes than the eyes of Marcus as a child. So, we never see her struggle with her decision. We do not know if she ever questions or regrets her decision or how much it might have cost her. Marcus is a child when all of this happenns and children tend to perceive the world in more black and white strokes. He comes to love Thalia much like a sister, so those who hurt her receive his condemnation. I think Marcus is about the same age as Abdullah when he meets Thalia. At the same age Abdullah is ripped from his sister, Marcus gains a sister and Adel gains and loses the closest thing he has to a brother.

I just have to say these recent comments are what I absolutely love about these book discussions!

This book just seemed disjointed for me, yet reading everyone's thoughts, there ideas on the different stories and characters and how they might relate of be similar is just fascinating to me.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, and for giving me a deeper look at this book!

Sheila, I agree with you. I love these discussions also. I was looking forward to this book discussion because I suspected that I was missing something in the book. I loved it; it moved me. Yet, I did not really have a handle on it. As we have posted, I have made connections I was not aware I had made. The conversation pulls stuff out of me. I was a bit sad when the thread seemed to die initially. I am so grateful that the posts have picked up.

Thanks for reminding me of the Thalia story, Irene.

I don't think that her story is so clear cut. It's not clear why Thalia's mother kept her daughter hidden, but like you point out, there are a number of different possibilities. I like to think that perhaps she did it to shield her daughter from the pain of being teased by others. And that this is what her mother "knew best", that her mother genuinely thought this was the best thing for her daughter.

And I think that it relates back to the opening story because Saboor abandons his daughter too because that is what he thought was the best.

Why judge Thalia's mother so much harsher than Pari's father?

Why aren't Thalia's mother's actions seen as actions of love?

I agree that Thalia's mother's going away to be on a movie shoot or to be with another man (I think that was it, right?) doesn't look good, whereas Saboor is going away to live a life of poverty.

But in the end, both daughters are abandoned by parents who in their mind are doing the best they can for their children. And it's exactly the fact that we judge the two stories differently that makes them compelling and interesting.

Each of these parent/child stories are complicated. Real life parenting is never easy. Parents make the best decisions they know how to make but.... I think I tended to judge Thalia's mother more harshly than Abdullah's father because we were given a glimpse of his pain, both in the bedtime story and in his body language at Nila's house. We never get a glimpse into Thalia's mother's struggle. And, as you point out, she gos off to have affair after affair where as Saboor returns to a life of struggling to be a good father to his other children. And, I also judge Thalia's mother for putting her in danger in the first place. It sounded as if that man they lived with whose dogs malled Thalia, was not the sort of person you would leave your child with. Then there is Nila. She contrasts with the mother of Marcus. Nila is vivatious, creative, cosmopolotan, can offer her daughter great opportunities, and yet, she turns out to be so needy, so broken. She almost crushes her daughter beneith the weight of that need. Does her act of adoption seem more like the act of selfishness to fulfill her need or the generous gift of opportunity to a child? Marcus' mother seems almost cold, demanding, unsympathetic. Yet, Thalia is able to thrive on her steady strength while it burdens Marcus. So, is it the way the parent shows love that is significant or the way the child receives it? And, what about Adel's father? Is he a good man or an evil man? He seems to be a good father. He loves his son who loves him in return. He provides a nice life for his wife and son. But, he ruthlessly destroys others outside his family. Can a person be a good parent and an evil person? How does the same person embody such contridictions of building schools for village girls and killing a peasant for wanting their ancestral land? Is Adel's father a good father because he protects his son or a bad father because of the legacy of immoral activity he will bequeath him?

I very much judged the parents, even Saboor. Really, who sells their child? Of course it's easy for me to be judgemental, living a life of relative ease in a fairly affluent country. I kept having to remind myself of the differing circumstances. I wondered too if Saboor's decision was influenced by Parwana. If she pushed her sister from a tree, why not connive to get rid of a stepchild so that her own child could have a better life.

And Irene, I loved the question about the author's decision to have Abdullah suffering from Alzheimer's. That one is going to keep me up at night.

I got the impression that no one knew that Parwana jogged the tree limb, causing her sister to fall and break her neck, not even the sister knew why she fell. It was Parwana's horrible secret. And, it was Parwana's secret also that she abandoned her sister to die of thirst in the desert. Although, how she explained things when she returned without her is a mystery to me.

It was difficult for me to judge the parents in this book because I often felt that I was unable to understand the full circumstances of their decisions. Not to say that I didn't have empathy for the impact of these choices on the children, but I was constantly aware that these individuals lived in a different culture (and in some cases time period) from my own.

The book did make me think about the social, religious, and dysfunctional family pressures in different areas of my own country. I think the book also emphasized that having money didn't solve all of life's problems and that the wealthy also suffered, although in a different manner. The message I saw in the book is that poverty can take both physical and spiritual forms. The consequences of either can be traumatic.

That is an interesting idea. I had not thought of spiritual poverty in this book. I was wondering if I should have read that initial fairy tale before each segment, as if each story was a different manifestation of that monster story. But, I saw the monster demanding a child from each family as a symbol of poverty. Ssince many of these families did not experience physical poverty, I could not make that idea work. Now I am wondering if maybe I missed the types of poverty, the various manifestations of that monster in each story. I need to think about this.

Haven't started, but I've read both The Kite Runner and Thousand Splendid Suns. Loved both reads. Guess I better get on reading this one. The reviews have been mixed, or I would have read it earlier. Now I have an excuse so that I can join in the discussion.

hey folks, I just joined this group & coincidentally I recently finished reading this book... I liked the book, a very emotional read for me :-)

Hello everyone, I just finished reading and I could not stop sobbing. All of Hosseini's books have mixed reviews of love and hate. Personally, being an immigrant myself I found that I can relate to many characters of "And The Mountains Echoed" in one way or another. It is a great book about life and human nature. It is a great reminder that no one is perfect and there is no clear cut between black and white.

Misha and Nadia, Welcome to the discussion. Please give us more of your thoughts. Why did you like it? Why did it make you cry? Which character spoke to you in a special way? We have thrown around several topics. We would love to have your input on any of these. Or, go ahead and pose another topic for conversation.

Kathy, Looking forward to your thoughts after you have read the book.

Welcome to the group, Misha and Nadia! This is one of my favorite "group read" groups on Goodreads - I've done several reads here. I hope you enjoy it, also.

Did you have a favorite or least favorite character? Why or why not?

I was waiting for this book for a long time and it really worth it. I must admit that it wasn't as good as 'Kite Runner' but it is almost there. Hosseini's books always made the realise how lucky I am. If you think you're in a bad situation and helpless, read this book. hope you enjoy it.

I was waiting for this book for a long time and it really worth it. I must admit that it wasn't as good as 'Kite Runner' but it is almost there. Hosseini's books always made the realise how lucky I am. If you think you're in a bad situation and helpless, read this book. hope you enjoy it.

Ever since "The Kite Runner" came out, I have been a fan of Khaled Hosseini. I love the way he writes, and his books are very moving stories with characters who overcome incredible odds and difficulties to prove the strength of the human spirit. I have bought every book of his, and will continue to do so.