Feminist Science Fiction Fans discussion

Oh I hear you Alexa - I finished Ancillary Justice and went - Wow....that was the most mind expanding science fiction I'd read in ages....it just blew me away. The question I too ask is why aren't there more like this being produced? That push all sorts of boundaries, and make us think....and also question....

I was growing up in a small country town, where girls were supposed to be interested in romance novels rather than the hard science fiction I particularly loved.....I would hope it's different now, but.....when I look at the Sci Fi being produced especially for young adults, it's still quite the same old, same old....which is frustrating....

I have bookmarked Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time...I'll see if I can track that down - thanks for the suggestion....any more ideas???

Hey all! My name is Laura Oliva (Olivia Lawless is my pen name). I'm just getting back into scifi after not reading it for quite a while, and just from going through this thread, I've added about a half dozen books to my TBR list. So, thanks for that!

A few books I can recommend from past experience are Murphy's Gambit and Technogenesis (by Syne Mitchell), and On Basilisk Station (by David Weber). I don't know if they are strictly "feminist scifi" per se, but they do have strong, interesting female protagonists, and are a lot of fun to read!

It's great to meet you guys!

Welcome Olivia!

Thanks Stephanie! :-)

Hi there! Thanks for the add! I've usually been a feminist non-fiction kind of girl, but now that I'm out of school I have time for leisure reading, and that's starting to include fiction. I like fantasy and sci-fi, and really want to expand my library with work that has feminist principles. I really liked Hjalti Danielsson's work Eve: the burning life, which is pretty feminist considering it was written by a dude (has a few problematic parts, but overall awesome) and of course Octavia Butler, Ursula K le Guin, are awesome. But more suggestions are always welcome!

Hello everyone! Incredibly excited that I stumbled across this group as I consider myself both scifi geek and a feminist. Like Jaq, I've gotten a fair bit of comments akin to "isn't that supposed to be for boys," so it's really refreshing to see that there are other women out there as interested in spaceships as I am, haha.

I'm still delving into some of the feminist scifi classics because it's a genre I've just recently become aware of, so I'm a little behind. I haven't read enough to commit to favorite authors yet.

On a recent trip, though, I did pick up an interesting anthology called The Dreaming Sex: Early Tales of Scientific Imagination by Women. It might be difficult to read and discuss every single one of the stories (there are 14), but I think it might be interesting to look into a few of these proto-feminist, proto-scifi stories.

Hi Kat and Tia!
Tia thanks for the book rec! It looks really interesting. I'm still working my way through the feminist sic-fi classics as well, turns out there are a lot of them haha. Thanks for joining us!

It would be easier to look into some of them [meaning the proto-SF stories, see link above] if they weren't behind a paywall.
Maybe some of them already are on a free culture site. I haven't looked but someone here might already have collected the relevant information (or might know someone who did).

This review contains links to several: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Thank you (and Jacob!) for the links.

Sultana's Dream wasn't quite what I would have expected to find either in The Indian Ladies' Magazine, Madras, 1905 or under the name of a Muslim fundie!
It's like a cariacature of classical feminist SF, but with an unintended steampunkish finish. And more importantly it's informed by different norms and values than those of Anglo authors. So it's interesting to see how she is able to imagine a revolution. The problem is that it's particularly hard to tell what's tongue-in-cheek and what isn't.

Hello everyone! My name is Sierra and I am very excited that this group exists. I remember taking a Women in Science Fiction class freshmen year of University and all the professor did was focus on science fiction that demeaned women instead of raise them up. I am glad to see this group focuses on the latter. Look forward to reading/discussing with you lovely people.

Welcome aboard Sierra!

I second that, Sierra! :)

Greetings! I'm Nikki and I just joined this group a few days ago. I'm kind of new to science fiction, but I'm enjoying everything I've read so far. Being an English major in college, I didn't really get exposed to sci-fi, so now that I'm choosing the books I read, I'm trying to expand my horizons. You know, the reason I never read sci-fi is because growing up, I always thought that was a boy thing. Of course, no one ever encouraged me to go into science, either. Hmm. I see a pattern. At any rate, I love that there are strong women in science fiction and I'm looking forward to reading more.

Welcome Nikki and Chrystal!

Hi Chrystal! The other thing I love about Cherryh is her diversity of style - she's so wide-ranging!

Olivia wrote: "Hey all! My name is Laura Oliva (Olivia Lawless is my pen name). I'm just getting back into scifi after not reading it for quite a while, and just from going through this thread, I've added about a..."

I love the character of Honor Harrington - she's well written, and is in a leadership role usually taken by men - I loved all the books Weber has written about her - I enjoy Military SciFi, so Weber's series is really enjoyable - especially now Harrington has entered the whole new world of parenting. Has anyone come across any other military Sci FI with strong female characters?

Spin State, perhaps Code of Conduct?

Have now bookmarked both of them - time to go and see if the public library has them - many thanks!!!

Wow, we just hit 160 members. That's more than I expected would be interested! Welcome all!

Im starting a book. A rock and a hard place.
I use him and her interchangeably. It's about me. peeps say I should find an intersex name Like KI, I want to tell the story. (female, nerd, flunky)

Wasabi beans and wild greens, the walls have become less interesting. Turning away from a lifetime of disaster, why is hope so sacred. Not a virtue, combined with our pain removal memory system, we are trapped.

There once was a kid with an issue, an issue above all else. Who keeps saving him? The heart won't stop, the tears won't drop, and she must hold the whole world together. All the while people crumple around him, he never concerns himself with others' thoughts, all she knows is that she must hold the world, literally, together.

It started with a dream, a fever dream, she had chickenpox and a high fever. The world was ending, it was tearing itself apart, and he had to hold it together, including gravity, including the moon. She had to keep it all together. She woke up gasping and sweating.

That was where it began for Alex, with a lowering fever and a blasted mind, the child awoke.

There were monitor lizards and sad hairless dancing bears, also a dead oil tanker that had turned the beach black. Pakistan was the place, 87 was the time. At 10 years of age I first felt ashamed for humanity.

The ones above me were wicked, the ones below me were salvageable. I tried to save the kittens, the chickens, the humanity. Bloodsplattered, I vowed to escape.

Fuck the internet. Filtering out the empathic through shock.

Then came the question of blood, feeding us blood weekly, cannibals, christians, yet too cheap to buy your would be breeders cotton? Period. It was the late 80s, and even virgins felt fucked.

There was no-one that could have seen them come, or leave.

tbc

Hello All!

Up until a couple months ago I participated in a face to face Feminist Science Fiction book group here in Tacoma, WA called "Broad Horizons". I enjoyed to the expansion to my science fiction exposure. I've always been well read in the genre but didn't before focus it as keenly to women authors and/or characters.

Our group fizzled, mostly due to lack of participation. We held our sessions at a wonderful independent bookseller in Tacoma, Kings Bookstore. Sweetpea, the owner, focuses on building book communities and his passion is feminist literature. But his time is limited and I think the strain of having to maintain it, with so little participation, just wore him out. I have hopes of trying to reignite it, and I'm certain sweetpea would be supportive if I offered to lead and market it, but in the meantime I NEED MY FEM SCI FI FIX! :-)

I'm planning to participate in the July read and look forward to the discussions.

If you're interested, or looking for ideas, Broad Horizons reads are listed below:
April 2014: Remnant Population by Elizabeth Moon
March 2014: The Shining Girls by Lauren Beukes
February 2014: Daughters of the North by Sarah Hall
January 2014: Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy
December 2013: Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
November 2013: Ammonite by Nicola Griffith
September 2013: Beggars in Spain by Nancy Kress
August 2013: Midnight Robber by Nalo Hopkinson
July 2013: The Gate to Women's Country by Sheri S Tepper
June 2013: Alif the Unseen by G Willow Wilson (Seattle Author)
May 2013: The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood
April 2013: Her Smoke Rose Up Forever by James Tiptree, Jr
March 2013: A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
February 2013: Cinder by Marissa Meyer (Tacoma author)
January 2013: The Girl with the Silver Eyes by Willo Davis Roberts
December 2012: China Mountain Zhang by Maureen F McHugh
November 2012: The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K Le Guin
October 2012: Wild Seed by Octavia E Butler

Great list Dorene!

Oooooh so many great titles!! Thanks for sharing!

Hi. I was inspired to track down a group like this after finishing Lightspeed's June edition "Women Destroy Science Fiction". It was absolutely magical - the fiction was of an incredibly high standard and the non-fiction was very eye-opening.

I also did a course on coursera on Science Fiction in the past few months. It including reading and . That has also added fuel to fire of reading more feminist science fiction systematically. I'm so keen to read more of Russ, Tepper and Tiptree.

Very keen to read the prior books for the group to catch up, and also the suggestions in this thread look awesome. My only limitation is I live in SA and books can be expensive, so a little bit limited to what I can get as an ebook. But will participate as much as possible!

Hello to all -

I'm Elizabeth, an avid reader who was raised in an extremely conservative religious environment where "feminism" was very much a bad word. I had a major spiritual awakening in college (thanks Sue Monk Kidd), and have reformulated much of my thinking about gender roles and equality with the guidance of some wonderful mentors.

That said, I have had very little formal, serious education in the area of feminism, and feminist science fiction is a fairly new genre for me. I've read and loved Woman on the Edge of Time, The Handmaid's Tale, Native Tongue, The Sparrow, and Children of God. I'm excited to read and learn from all of you!

Hi everyone! I'm new to this group and thought that I should introduce myself. I just started reading Butler's "Parable of the sower" which I already like alot. Other than Butler, some of my favourite writers include Ursula K. Le Guin, Joanna Russ, Jeanette Winterson, Tamora Pierce and Scarlett Thomas. I've been hanging out here at Goodreads for a few months now and I am completely hooked. I joined becuase I was in a reading slump and needed some inspiration, and now I can't seem to read fast enough, my to-read list just keeps growing!

Welcome Rebecca!

Always delighted to know another Octavia Butler fan. :) I highly recommend her books "Mind of My Mind" and "Imago".

KOMET wrote: "Welcome Rebecca!

Always delighted to know another Octavia Butler fan. :) I highly recommend her books "Mind of My Mind" and "Imago".

I just finished Lilith's Brood which includes Imago, and I love it! I'm gonna go into the Patternmaster books after I'm finised with Earthseed :) I can't believe that it took me 28 years to discover Butler, but I am so glad I did.

Rebecca wrote:

I just finished Lilith's Brood which includes Imago, and I love it! I'm gonna go into the Patternmaster books after I'm finised with Earthseed :) I can't believe that it took me 28 years to discover Butler, but I am so glad I did.

+++++++++++++++++++
I share your avid enthusiasm. :) My introduction to Octavia Butler was through her novel "Wild Seed" in the early 90s, which came as an epiphany! IT BLEW MY MIND.

KOMET wrote: "Rebecca wrote:

I just finished Lilith's Brood which includes Imago, and I love it! I'm gonna go into the Patternmaster books after I'm finised with Earthseed :) I can't believe that it took me 28..."

Oooh, can't wait to read it!

Hi all.

Ah, debates about feminism -- what we are, what we aren't -- and all that before we even start to read. This might be a fun group. Seems like there are some good folks here.

I have a question. Why not fantasy too? I mean, the pool we have to draw from is pretty limited to begin with even if the criteria is narrowed down to all feminist works of fiction. Plus, sci-fi and fantasy go together like peanut butter and jelly. In fact, they go together exactly like that. They tend to mix. And once they've mix, sorting out what's what can be a devil of a lot of no-fun.

Take The Handmaid's Tale for example. Now remove the epilogue. No great loss, right? The story is still a piece of speculative fiction, but that doesn't really separate it into either sci-fi or fantasy. Speculative fiction by definition can be either. So, what is it?

Anyway, I'm here because I love sci-fi and fantasy. I particularly love it when there are some interesting women actively twisting the plot.

Here are some examples of the things I've enjoyed over the last year or so that might qualify:

• A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
• Cyteen by C.J. Cherryh
• Doomsday Book by Connie Willis
• The Birthday of the World and Other Stories by Ursula K. Le Guin
• Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie

There are quite a few repeats from the pile already share by others, which sort of helps make my point.

I've been reading The Shadow Campaigns by Django Wexler. It is decidedly a fantasy series with a character named Winter who enlists in the army after escaping a prison for girls. The society is patriarchal, the army is an all male fighting force, and Winter doesn't fit in well at all, until she does. It's an excellent series. I highly recommend it.

There's another book with similar themes called The Privilege of the Sword by Ellen Kushner that I recommend. It's book two of a three book series, but the books are set so far apart in time that they can easily be read as standalone works.

Anyway, pleased to meet you. I'm Valyssia

The pleasure is ours.

If you look at what people have nominated and at what people have argued is feminist, the pool is actually pretty large. But I agree: my version of the pool would be much smaller.
I don't think fantasy and SF are similar or usually go well together. This has been briefly discussed here but without reiterating what I said earlier, check out a casualty of the confusion. And to answer your question, if a story could be argued to be either SF or fantasy, perhaps it's simply neither.
But clearly, if most group members can't tell the difference or don't care, the group might as well read outright fantasy. Looking at what some here have argued might be science fiction (and looking at what some editors have included in SF anthologies), virtually anything might be called SF.
And yeah, if the group was to opt for reading outright fantasy there would be more authors I'd add to the pool. Jemisin for instance.

As to your picks, Cyteen and Ancillary have already been group reads. The sequel to Door is already next month's group read. And Birthday was briefly discussed (and I'm sure some of us would be up for more) within the context of a Hainish group read.
That leaves Doomsday... be sure to nominate it for the next poll when the time comes.

Outis wrote: "The pleasure is ours.

If you look at what people have nominated and at what people have argued is feminist, the pool is actually pretty large. But I agree: my version of the pool would be much sma..."

The Birthday of the World anthology was wonderful if for nothing more than seeing LeGuin take the standard list of judgements that men have placed on women from time immemorial -- we're too emotional, we're too fragile, blah, blah blah -- twist them and load them up as a return salvo. I almost slid out of my chair. It was too funny.

As to sci-fi and fantasy, I don't suffer from the issues you eluded to, but there are definitely some hinky points. The way I differentiate sci-fi and fantasy is: sci-fi has technology; fantasy has magic; sci-fi has aliens that can seem monstrous; fantasy has supernaturally spawned demons & monsters. Having glanced at the article you provided, I see now that you agree. The thing is that there wouldn't be the short ship-load of sub-genres if definitions were always absolutely perfectly clean.

And whatever.

That doesn't speak to my point. I happen to love fantasy. I like some of it better than the best sci-fi. I look to groups like this to recommend good reads to me. I really don't give a fig for cutting hairs. It's kind of a waste of time. What I was trying to say with my previous message is that it'd be darned spiffy if there was a group out there to recommend fantasy books to me with solid female characters experiencing things that I could relate to, as this group seems to want to do with sci-fi. That is, after all, the purpose...not spending hours labeling things.

Heck, I'm not even picky about the feminism. As long as the standard tripe of girls as props is off the table, I'll be a happy human. That's why I'm here. That's what I signed up for.

We could do a fantasy thread if nothing else.
Are you sure you aren't picky though? There are people who argue that Game of Thrones is feminist, you know. If you really aren't picky, I do recommend Metropolitan (see link above) which has an interesting woman as a main character.
And even if you're picky, do hit Jemisin. Especially Dreamblood #2. The characters aren't stereotypical "strong women" but in my book that's a good thing.
I assume you've read virtually everything by Butler already.

Hey, I love fantasy as well, and I most definitely love Jemisin! Since I happily and voraciously read both, I have only a mild academic interest in drawing lines between the two. (Although I thought the discussion about Daughters of Earth: Feminist Science Fiction in the Twentieth Century and which stories were actually feminist and which were actually science fiction was still lots of fun!) So yeah, I'm all for opening up the possibilities! (I haven't read Game of Thrones (and since I assume I may read it some day, and absolutely hate spoilers of any kind, I've tried to keep myself as ignorant as possible) - is it flat out ridiculous to call it feminist?)

Welcome! (And thanks to both for the recommendations.)

Outis wrote: "We could do a fantasy thread if nothing else.
Are you sure you aren't picky though? There are people who argue that Game of Thrones is feminist, you know. If you really aren't picky, I do recommend..."

Those people are [insert disparaging comment here]. *coughs* Sorry. Game of Thrones is plot driven drivel with barely enough character development to fill in the cracks. I'd rather read a game of chess. It'd be more entertaining.

I don't care for the stereotypical 'strong woman' either. I try to avoid using that term. Separating one thing from another by creating a unique name infers that the quality described by that name is different from the norm -- that 'strong' is an unusual thing for us to be. I find that insulting. Really, what you're referring to -- characters that are labeled that way -- are typically retooled male characters with a veneer of curvy bits, and an unnatural love of costly footwear.

I've added Jemisin to my to read pile. Things like that are exactly why I poked my nose in.

Oh, and the answer to my Margaret Atwood question from the first message is that the Handmaid's Tale sans annoying epilogue would become what it was all along: speculative fiction. Even with the epilogue, it's still speculative fiction, which by defintion can be either sci-fi or fantasy, but it doesn't have to be either one. In my opinion, there isn't a drop of sci-fi blood in the darned thing. It's author even says so. She claims speculative fiction is her stock and trade. She doesn't mind that some people call it sci-fi. That's fine with her. In the case of the Maddaddam Trilogy, they're even right.

Alexa wrote: "Hey, I love fantasy as well, and I most definitely love Jemisin! Since I happily and voraciously read both, I have only a mild academic interest in drawing lines between the two. (Although I thou..."

Thank you, dear. And sorry for the mildly spoilerish opinion of G.O.T. Maybe it'll strike you differently. I've read the entire series and I can't say that I'm all that impressed. The HBO series is pretty good, but that's mostly because there are character actors playing the characters so they can't really help having character.

I really need to type the word 'character' again.

Character.

There. I feel much better now.

As to the thing about fantasy, I wouldn't have mentioned it had not gone through the all of the groups I could stand looking at for a place that might not make me want to tear my hair out. You guys are kind of it, if the goal of the member is to get recs for books within a certain scope that present women as well rounded, interesting people.

Sadly, I'd be set, if I liked romance. All of the groups I've seen that have a fair population of readers interested in female protagonists are rife with exactly that. I want something different, so here I am.

Thanks again for the welcome.

Alexa wrote: "is it flat out ridiculous to call [Thrones] feminist?"
Well, the author of the books doesn't think that's ridiculous (5 minutes in). But then he also thinks flying cars make a story science fiction while dragons make a story fantasy (see blog link about genre trouble above). I expect you wouldn't be shocked to learn that I disagree on all counts.
The issue of people labelling Thrones feminist illustrates why definitions matter. If anything one can rationalize as having anything to do with feminism counts, Thrones definitely is feminist... and the label loses any usefulness.
So the author has tried to portray women as individual human beings. Hooray! He also tried to portray swords as weapons. In some cases, individual weapons even.
Jeering aside, Thrones is in no small part a somewhat contrived exploration of various forms of patriarchal relationships and ideals as well as the ways in which they can fail. That can be interesting in a setting in which patriarchy makes sense. But a story dealing with the failures of monarchs for instance isn't automatically democratic. Indeed, monarchs have historically sponsored such.

And just so this won't turn into a Thrones thread...

Valyssia wrote: "The Birthday of the World anthology was wonderful if for nothing more than seeing LeGuin take the standard list of judgements that men have placed on women from time immemorial -- we're too emotional, we're too fragile, blah, blah blah -- twist them and load them up as a return salvo. I almost slid out of my chair. It was too funny."
It was funny but what struck me most was what she didn't change. So sad.
The cool thing is that it all makes sense given her premise. It doesn't feel contrived like so many of these reversal stories.

Valyssia wrote: "Game of Thrones is plot driven drivel with barely enough character development to fill in the cracks. I'd rather read a game of chess. It'd be more entertaining...."

Oooh, you know how to turn a mean phrase! Delicious! No need to apologize, maybe I won't bother after all (it's just that sometimes one begins to feel a slight twinge of cultural illiteracy). Character! I say we all need to demand more of it all the time. I actually have a vague memory of someone somewhere pontificating that the major difference between male and female science-fiction/fantasy writers is that the women spent too much time worrying about character. (Or perhaps it was male vs. female readers?) A rather ridiculous statement, but it made me wonder if there was a camp of middle-aged white men somewhere demanding, "less character!"

And thanks for the excellent analysis of exactly what's wrong with the phrase "strong woman." "An unnatural love of costly footwear," hehehe.

Outis wrote: "It was funny but what struck me most was what she didn't change. So sad.
The cool thing is that it all makes sense given her premise. It doesn't feel contrived like so many of these reversal stories."

Well put.

I bow to your superior knowledge. I'm too inexperienced to have other examples to compare the that segment of The Matter of Seggri with...and it sounds like that's probably a good thing.

About fantasy, Chalion #1 is part of the new Humble Bundle (meaning you get to pay a price of your choice for the ebook over the next couple of weeks).
It's not as loved as Thrones among members of this group (the first Thrones book get an average rating of 4.18 here!) but I know there are a few Bujold fans in the house so now would be the right time to post a few words about it.
If you want to sell me Chalion however, be aware that as a middle-aged white man, I don't care about characters as much as you do. No, really: I actually don't.

I'm late to weigh in on this one, but hi hi here I am!

Why not fantasy? Well, fantasy is great, and sci-fi and fantasy fall under the same umbrella in many ways, but I prefer science fiction and I started the group to serve my own selfish selfish desires. I feel like there are enough feminist science fiction selections to keep the group going for a fair amount of time, and while there are also some great fantasy books we could discuss, I think we would find ourselves inundated with choices - I liked the idea of a very specific sub genre because then it would be more likely for us to hit all the most notable titles and authors.

Game of Thrones! I like the books. The series is a tad long winded and yeah the character development is thin because there are like 1000000000 characters... but the ones that do have adequate development are strong, in my opinion. Is it a feminist series? Nope I don't think so. Sure there are some female characters that take charge and could be considered feminist icons, but there is also a lot of rape and women being treated like crap, so it is what it is. I imagine that when the series was started in 1996 the target market was probably largely males.

What are some other good feminist fantasy books? I really liked The Bone Doll's Twin trilogy

Stephanie wrote: "I'm late to weigh in on this one, but hi hi here I am!

Why not fantasy? Well, fantasy is great, and sci-fi and fantasy fall under the same umbrella in many ways, but I prefer science fiction and ..."

One of the reasons I am interested in women/feminists in science fiction is because it seems women are less represented in that field. The various statistics that I've seen from time to time show a lot more women in fantasy than science fiction; its almost like being a female science fiction author is a feminist statement just by itself.

The newest anthology I bought has a speculative/hard SF theme, a subgenre which typically attracts less women than others and yet 43% of its authors use a feminine name.
Obviously the older, better-known authors are more likely to use a masculine name and 43% isn't 50%... but IMO it's no big deal if there's a slight gender imbalance as far as traditionally-gendered themes are concerned.
It takes at least one human lifetime to overturn such biases without coercion, if only because people are naturally going to want to keep reading their favorite authors from the bad old days. But the imbalance is clearly nothing like it used to be. If you still sponsor venues and editors who publish very few women, I'd say that's your problem. It's become easy to choose not to.

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Hello everybody, I'm Jo and i'm new to the group. I took a break from sci-fi for a while and have been trying to catch-up. Recently i've read Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy and various books by Tanith Lee. I also enjoy exploring sci-fi /speculative fiction from around the world, these have included Johanna Sinisalo from Finland and Karin Tidbeck from Sweden. I'm hoping to find a lot of new recommendations from the group.

Hi Jo and welcome to the group!

Hello, Jo! I really enjoy Tanith Lee, too. Welcome to the group!

Hi - I'm really excited to join this group! I am planning on reading more science fiction and fantasy this year and there are so many great recommendations here!
I've never read any Octavia E Butler so am going to remedy that by ordering Lilith's Brood. Shockingly, my local library doesn't have any of her books at all.